why is this a sin?

[EmeraldWings]

(post 1 of 2)

i have read all of your words, and you have no idea what this sin does to the mind and soul…it is a sin because it hurts us, not because it hurts God,
something cannot be good for you if God has no part of it, you know and agree that lust is bad and is a sin, and you need to understand why it is bad also,

you are telling me these things, but you are not really explaining yourself, our youth need to be heard sure, but they need to learn more than they need to be heard, they are ignorant because for one, no one is teaching them, and two, because they are young, the older we get the more we know, and that is why the youth need to listen more than be heard, we have all been young, no one who is old has not themselves been a youth, and so the youth must listen to those who have been through it, otherwise they will either learn the hard way, or not learn at all,
and believe me, they want to learn, i have seen the excitement in their eyes when i have taught them, to what seemed to them, some kind of treasure of knowledge,
they want to be good, and i am not going to walk on egg shells with them, the one thing you have to realize about young people is, they bounce back very easily, God did not make us so fragile that every hurt feeling leaves us crippled, the youth are stronger than the old, they can handle it, you need to give them a little more credit than that…

and no it would not be wise to agree to disagree, it would be very foolish to do that, those who end with “lets agree to disagree” are simply trying to get out of something they don’t want to give up or give in to, but also cannot themselves understand or explain.

so instead of agreeing to disagree, i will try and explain to you, without taking to much time, what lust is and why it’s bad for you.

Lust, in it’s simplest definition, is “An inordinate desire for or enjoyment of sexual pleasure”
but what makes lust bad, in as simple a way as i can put it, is that it focuses on the self pleasure, rather than the love, for spouse or God, if there be a spouse at all.
and then in addition to that, it also neglects the love of God out of disregard for the divinely ordained purpose of sex, which is “to foster the mutual love of husband and wife and, according to the dispositions of providence, to procreate and educate their children”

now, to understand exactly why lust is so shameful and degrading, you must understand what chastity is and why is it so beautiful in Gods eyes,
and we know that God detests impurity and loves chastity, for the simple fact that He himself has told us, that nothing impure shall enter into His kingdom,
society has made lust seem healthy and natural, but as i said previously, look at the state of our society, are you going to take your advice from them?
the church however, according to holy scripture, tells us that the sins of impurity should not even be spoken of among Christians, because of the curiosity or images it may plant in our hearts and minds.
no sin, according to the church and holy scripture, is more shameful than sins of the flesh, and why? because it makes our bodies instruments of the vilest sensuality, our bodies which are a creature of God, His divine masterpiece, and therefore exclusively His property, meant as an instrument to practice all good and obtain heaven, temples of the Holy Ghost which should never be profaned by the sin of impurity, we must, as i said before, treat our bodies with dignity and respect, and not defile and degrade them with this repulsive act,
the sins of the flesh not only offend God, but hurt us and kill the soul, and draw our affections away from God, every sin, mortal or venial, kills charity in us, and separates us further from God,
but no sin pulls us further away from God than sins of the flesh, because God is not of sensuality, but of love, and when we give ourselves over to the sins of sensuality, which give us instant gratification, then our affections for God lessen greatly, because His consolations are not so instant and readily available,

 

[EmeraldWings]

(post 2 of 2)

lust can somewhat be named the opposite of love, because it is an entirely selfish thing, and love is completely selfless, it is something given and never taken or forced, whereas lust is something only either taken or forced, and i say it is only “taken” because it is really something stolen, God intended for those pleasures to be shared only between husband and wife, and so when you take those pleasures for yourself, you are stealing from God by separating the pleasure from the purpose,
and as being, in a sense, the opposite of love, then therefore, God being love itself, then lust is the opposite of God,
of course as we know, all sin and evil is a lack of God, but more particularly lust, because it is the sin God detests most, and it is the sin God detests most both because it is so repulsive, and also because it takes us the furthest from Him.

and so, if you want to teach and spread love among the youth, teaching them that lust is in any way shape or form okay, will only take them away from love(God being love) and move them towards hate, despair, murder(spiritual murder), shame, ignominy, misery, and finally eternal damnation…and so you, through ignorance i am sure, are actually showing hate to your friends by telling them that lust is okay,
and i say lust rather than masturbation, because one thing you have to understand is this,
take all sins of the flesh, masturbation, fornication, adultery, impure thoughts, impure looks, jests, touches, speech, sins against nature, desires, wishes, intentions; take them all and put them in a bucket, and then take a magic marker and mark that bucket “LUST”, that is what is the sin, and that is what makes every sin of impurity mortal.
it’s the lust with which it is done, and believe me, it’s not done without lust,

and not only do you defile your own body, but the temple of the Holy Ghost, and i don’t know how someone with a pure heart would not shudder at such a thought…

it is a crime what we let our youth do, not insomuch as we don’t force them to stop, because how could we? but instead it is a crime because we do not counsel them otherwise,

now, as i said before, the church clearly teaches that masturbation is a mortal sin, so you are not disagreeing with me, but the church, who is guided by the Holy Ghost, so you also disagree with God,
what you have to understand is, one of the reasons the Catholic church is called the “universal” church, is because all Catholics everywhere are supposed to have the same beliefs, we don’t have personal opinions regarding sin, we accept all the church teachings without exception, because it is the church’s job, not ours, to define and declare sin, that is the authority Jesus gave to them,
i don’t make personal opinions regarding sin, i only learn and obey,
you really need to think about what you are doing, it’s one thing to want to scare someone into not sinning, but it’s foolish to not bring up hell whatsoever, even Jesus, Who loves us all infinity more than anyone ever could, brought up hell and taught of it and how we are sent there, was He uncharitable to do so? was He using scare tactics? of course not! He did it to warn us, and isn’t it cowardly for us not to do the same? if you saw your blind friend walking towards a cliff, would you not run and stop them? and yet that’s what we fail to do every time we do not warn our friends of their sins and there consequences,

true love is doing everything you can for the good of souls, because the soul lives forever, and the body, which is our enemy, dies off,
you spoke before of “understanding our body”, and what you need to understand about the body is, it works against you, and is your main stumbling block to heaven.

i want to ask you a few question in addition to all i have said here,
first of all, why do you believe masturbation is not a sin when the church clearly teaches otherwise?
what have you been taught of chastity?
and what have you been taught of lust?
what books have you studied from regarding your Catholic faith?
what have you been taught regarding all the virtues and gift/fruits of the Holy Ghost?
who is your favorite saint?
do you practice fasting or mortification?

i hope you don’t mind the questions, but i have good reason for asking them.

so that’s all for now, take care.

 

[BlueShadow123]

It is healthy because it is a sexual act.

God made sex healthy because it is something for a wife and a husband to do.
And it is true! Sex has many mental and physical benifits.

The reason masturbation is bad though is because when you do that, you essentially are lusting after somebody. Lusting is committing adultery in your heart.

Ontop of that, if you see things from a catholic perspective, then its not good to ‘drop your seed’ that is not in the act of giving life. And this applies to a girl too. She doesn’t really have a seed like a boy, but she is able to reach uhm, ‘sexual height’ I guess you could say.

So they only believe in ‘reaching the top’ during sex while you’re MARRIED.

That is your answer.

 

[zacktr]

Let’s see:

1. sex with your spouse should be unitive and procreative. (has to finish the right way in the right place)
2. sex with someone else’s spouse is adultery and wrong
3. sex when you are unmarried is fornication and wrong

Knowing these things, is there room in this theology for having sex with yourself? If you can only have sex with your spouse, and that act must follow certain rules, that precludes having sex with others and without anyone else, doesn’t it?

You can’t just look at the individual act. Look around the topic at other aspects that are more easy to understand, and then apply them to the topic in question. Catholic theology is interlocking - it makes sense no matter how you look at it.

My concern with this question is this:

1. All forms of sexual activity specifically called out in the Bible have serious diseases as a part of them (STDs, etc.). There is no such result from masturbation.
2. The Bible doesn’t mention anything against masturbation; today’s teaching is based on an interpretation of the Bible. So it could be wrong, or it could be right. In fact, I often pray to the Lord that I’m doing a particular activity because I’m taught to do so and that I hope it’s right and pleases Him.
   3… Furthermore, tt is already well discussed here how different priests will tell you different things about this topic.
3. The Church already has a history of changing its mind on topics. Who’s to say they won’t change it on this topic?
4. It has been argued that if you take pleasure from masturbation, then it must be a sin. However, I can receive pleasure from many activities. This doesn’t make them all sins.
5. I think all men (well, single men at least) can admit the pressure to masturbate is huge and if it’s wrong, then this seems like a odd pressure to have.
6. Furthermore, I wouldn’t take any pleasure from killing somebody nor do I feel building pressure to do so. In fact, killing somebody would have zero pleasure so using the argument above, does that mean it is not a sin? Of course not.
7. When I masturbate, I typically picture a “generic” woman (not a particular individual that I have met) and usually depict her as my future wife (I fantasize about making love to her as husband and wife). Is that lustful or not?

I’m not arguing for or against masturbation here, but I think these issues are why there is so much confusion on the topic. I also think much of what people would agree are sins, we would have little disagreement on (killing, stealing, etc.). But given that there is so much confusion over masturbation, specifically, it makes one wonder if the Church has it right (again, they have changed the Catechism before).

 

[BlueShadow123]

My concern with this question is this:

1. All forms of sexual activity specifically called out in the Bible have serious diseases as a part of them (STDs, etc.). There is no such result from masturbation.
2. The Bible doesn’t mention anything against masturbation; today’s teaching is based on an interpretation of the Bible. So it could be wrong, or it could be right. In fact, I often pray to the Lord that I’m doing a particular activity because I’m taught to do so and that I hope it’s right and pleases Him.
   3… Furthermore, tt is already well discussed here how different priests will tell you different things about this topic.
3. The Church already has a history of changing its mind on topics. Who’s to say they won’t change it on this topic?
4. It has been argued that if you take pleasure from masturbation, then it must be a sin. However, I can receive pleasure from many activities. This doesn’t make them all sins.
5. I think all men (well, single men at least) can admit the pressure to masturbate is huge and if it’s wrong, then this seems like a odd pressure to have.
6. Furthermore, I wouldn’t take any pleasure from killing somebody nor do I feel building pressure to do so. In fact, killing somebody would have zero pleasure so using the argument above, does that mean it is not a sin? Of course not.
   8. When I masturbate, I typically picture a “generic” woman (not a particular individual that I have met) and usually depict her as my future wife (I fantasize about making love to her as husband and wife). Is that lustful or not?

I’m not arguing for or against masturbation here, but I think these issues are why there is so much confusion on the topic. I also think much of what people would agree are sins, we would have little disagreement on (killing, stealing, etc.). But given that there is so much confusion over masturbation, specifically, it makes one wonder if the Church has it right (again, they have changed the Catechism before).

You are still fantasizing about a woman that could very well exist. With about 7 billion people on this planet, any ‘look’ you can imagine is definitely out there. You are still fantasizing about the woman in general. How a woman looks for example is what you are thinking about. While your doing the act, and fantasizing about a womans body is considered lust, is it not? Its okay to find somebody attractive, but to look at somebody and imagine their clothes are off, is another level that is considered sin by God. And yes, I do realize this is a much harder thing to deal with for men, but I’m trying to tell you that you cannot justify masturbation and think it is right. Its not. And it may even give you the mental and physical benefits that you would get during sex without having to worry about any STD’s or pregnancy, but your relationship with God is being hurt if you do that. So if God is more important to you than the benefits of masturbation, then I suggest you try to stop doing it as much as you are now, or even completely if you can.

 

[EmeraldWings]

(Post 1 of 2)

My concern with this question is this:

you’re missing the point, it’s about lust, *not *pleasure.
and lust is, as i’ve already said several times “An inordinate desire for or enjoyment of sexual pleasure. The desires or acts are inordinate when they do not confirm to the divinely ordained purpose of sexual pleasure, which is to foster the mutual love of husband and wife and, according to the dispositions of providence, to procreate and educate their children.”

the only reason people hold onto this sin so firmly is because it is addicting and very enjoyable, and i’ve heard every excuse in the book, but what you’re not seeing is what lust is, and how it is opposed to God’s love.

the church teaches that masturbation is a mortal sin and has always taught that, it’s never changed, and therefore you commit a mortal sin by doing it, and it cannot change even if the church said so, because they cannot *change *Gods law,
and what i mean by that is, lust is and always will be opposed to God, God is all goodness, goodness itself, love itself, and lust is evil, it is a lack of God, and something God can’t be apart of, because how can God be something that is a lack of Himself? and therefore the church cannot change God into something He is not.

listen, God would not want you to do something that would enslave you, and if you think that this is a good thing, then try not to do it for just a week, and see how many temptations you suffer,
keeping in mind, we are never tempted to do good, but only inspired, and so if this were a good thing, you would not be tempted to it,
temptations are from the devil, and God only allows them because when we overcome them we become stronger against them and gain merit and grace.

you have to understand, it is not about “masturbation, fornication, adultery, etc.” it is about lust, and the bible has alot to say about lust,
*
“That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour: Not in the passion of lust, like the Gentiles that know not God”*

“Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, lust, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is the service of idols.”

masturbation, as you can see from this passage, is idolatry, it is worship to your own body, because you place those things before God and His law, you make them your God.
*
“The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly from temptation, but to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be tormented. And especially them who walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness”*

“But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not so much as be named among you”

let it not so much be named among you, does that not make it clear? if the very names of those things which are impure are dangerous to speak of, then how much more are the acts of impurity dangerous and grave?

“I say then, walk in the spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the spirit: and the spirit against the flesh; for these are contrary one to another: so that you do not the things that you would. But if you are led by the spirit, you are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are fornication, uncleanness, immodesty, (etc)”

is not masturbation “works of the flesh”? or “lust of the flesh”?

“Go not after thy lusts, but turn away from thy own will.”

“Take from me the greediness of the belly, and let not the lusts of the flesh take hold of me, and give me not over to a shameless and foolish mind.”

 

[EmeraldWings]

(Post 2 of 2)

my friend, what you don’t understand is this - you are Catholic, not protestant, and you do not believe in “sola scripture” which is the protestant belief that the bible is the sole source of knowledge of Gods law.
although don’t get me wrong, the bible most certainly and clearly says that masturbation is wrong, but it says it under the names lust, uncleanness, idolatry, works of the flesh, impurities, etc.
and we know that there is more to our Catholic faith than the bible, because of passages such as this one - “But there are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.”

we believe in the bible plus tradition, tradition being “the unwritten word of God”

so whether masturbation is mentioned in the bible in those exact words or not, means absolutely nothing,
but even if fornication was not mentioned in the bible, that to would still be declared a mortal sin, for the simple fact that it is under the definition of “lust”.

there is really no confusion on this topic as far as church teaching is concerned,
the confusion lies in what society teaches, and certain disobedient priests/bishops.
so if it is confusing for you, then you are merely looking for answers in the wrong places.

and here you admit that the church teaches masturbation is a sin - “The Church already has a history of changing its mind on topics. Who’s to say they won’t change it on this topic?”
if you know the church teaches it is a mortal sin, then there is no question, you must be obedient to the church,

you also say here “I think all men (well, single men at least) can admit the pressure to masturbate is huge and if it’s wrong, then this seems like a odd pressure to have.”

i know many men who would disagree with you,
it becomes a huge temptation only when you let it get so far, but if you use the remedies recommended against such temptations, then you won’t have as much trouble,
it might be hard for you, but you give in, and you have given in for, i am guessing, a long time now, in which case you will have to try alot harder to overcome it, but it’s not impossible, and you can even reach a point of not being tempted to it at all, because as we are told - “And Jesus beholding, said to them: With men this is impossible: but with God all things are possible.”
if you have ever tried to resist alone, then it is no wonder that you failed, but when we ask for Gods help, and then use the help He gives, then we will succeed.

well, i think that is enough, so i will leave you with this to help you further -
audiosancto.org/categories/purity.php
please listen to those sermons, they will help you understand much more than anything i have said.

alright, hope this helps, take care.

 

[twoangels]

First off, it is possible to have never masturbated. I am 30 years old, and this has never been a sin I’ve needed to confess. Honestly, as a teen, I always wondered how people got stuck in the trap of this sin. I was very skeptical to believe that the sin was as common as it is, but eventually I learned to be more merciful and accepting of other’s sins and to not frown so much on people who’ve committed sins I’ve never committed.

The thing is, the sexual urge is designed to lead us to a profound act of mutual love and self donation. I think the urge to masturbate often comes from a desire to be loved. Any time we are failing to love others as we should or are isolating ourselves from others or are simply feeling lonely or depressed for whatever reason, the sexual urge comes out. It comes out because it is the most instinctual expression of love.

The problem is that masturbation has nothing to do with love. It doesn’t fill that need in our heart to be loved. It leaves us wanting. I would guess that once someone has experienced the heights of sexual pleasure outside of marriage, that quickly the sexual pleasure and its multiple effects (relaxation, euphoria, etc) because a new motivation to do the act. This quickly teaches us to view the sexual urge as one primarily about the pursuit of sexual pleasure. The love and intimacy involved in the marital union become secondary. The procreative nature is also downplayed, and I believe this devalues the amazing procreative power of the marital embrace and thus devalues human life in general.

The thing is, our desire to love and to be loved is a good one, but we need to seek out ways to be loved in appropriate and in manners that will actually involve us in an actual exchange of love. Thus the opportunity is to learn that love isn’t just all about sex and to get creative in how we serve others and how we grow in true relationships with people. I always found that whenever I found myself in a ministry of love that suited me (where I especially was going outside of myself) that my inner restlessness that would sometimes show up as a temptation would fall a bit to the background.

And in marriage, I have to say that the world greatly underestimates the value of intimacy in the sexual embrace. Everyone talks about the physical pleasure as if that were the height of sexual enjoyment. While I do think its important to enjoy sex, the pleasure is simply the means to the intimacy. The intimacy is far superior to the pleasure. I can’t even imagine the empty void it must be to experience that pleasure alone. My heart in that moment longs for a connection with my spouse and he is there. I can’t even describe it. If he weren’t there, I can’t imagine feeling any other way but a strong extra sensitive awareness of loneliness. It makes me not want to masturbate even more.

I’m not saying my view of sexuality as perfect. I do have my own hang ups, and the marital act did not come easily to us. Definitely I think there is a wrong way to teach children about sexuality and there are traumatic experiences that can warp our views. But I still see the Church’s teaching on the subject as something that does ring true and ought to be something that is embraced.

 

[SunshineRose1]

Can someone explain to me the theological reasons that make masturbation bad? This is something that teenagers have a problem with and many medical authorities also claim that it is OK and healthy.

I once spoke to a Baptist psychiatrist who minored in Baptist theology and he told me that Masturbation was OK and that there was nothing wrong theologically with that act.

Explain to me why he is wrong and why teenagers should avoid this act.

Masturbation is a sin, because God gave us our sexual organs for the purpose of procreative and unitive relationships. He didn’t give us our equipment so we could abuse it and selfishly bring pleasure to ourselves. Procreative and unitive sex is sacred, and when you engage in masturbation, you demean it.

The fact that many teenagers (I’m only twenty myself, so don’t see this as a slight) struggle with this doesn’t make it any less sinful. Teens may also struggle with respecting their parents or not taking the name of the Lord in vain, but that doesn’t mean that honoring one’s parents or not taking the name of the Lord in vain are suddenly no longer a part of the Ten Commandments. Being a Catholic means doing your honest best to abide by the doctrines of our faith. That means the ones that you struggle with in addition with those that you don’t.

As far as medical authorities go, with all due respect to them, they are not moral authorities. They understand science, but they do not understand the requirements of the Catholic faith in particular. If you want to comprehend the Catholic stance on what is a sin and what isn’t, you need to speak with a person in authority within the Catholic Church. If you are not concerned with the Catholic stance on masturbation, then you are at perfect liberty to believe as the medical authorities do. That is your right, and nobody is going to stop you.

In terms of the Baptist you spoke to, he is not a Catholic, and, while he probably is perfectly correct in speaking about matters within his own denomination, he is a reliable source on what is sinful or not in the eyes of the Catholic Church. If you are a Catholic, I strongly advise you to speak with religious authorities within the Catholic faith and to follow what those authorities tell you. By the way, if for some reason you can’t speak with a Catholic priest, you’d probably be better of speaking to a representative of a Lutheran or Anglican church or some other Protestant denomination with a theology that is closer to Catholicism than the one embraced by most Baptists.

Hope this helps.

 

[Romulus]

Emerald, a lot of interesting points you have shared here in regards to this topic. I have some responses/questions that I’ll like you and everyone else who would like to jump in to respond to.

well first of all, they may claim it’s healthy, but i’ve heard others say it’s not, and the explanation saying it’s more harmful than healthy makes more sense to me,

Who exactly is “they” and “others”?? I’ll like to read up on the findings of these researchers/scientist/etc… where can we find these published journals/articles that have results that tend to suggest that it is healthy or that it is not healthy?? uhmm…and don’t make me google…LOL…let us all find these legit sources and share them. But keep in mind, even if we do find them, anyone can always say the study was biased to either side, so there will be faith in our part to accept or not accept these studies.

but i won’t get into that, simply because it’s besides the point,

Actually, IMO it will be wise to get into it…and it is related to the point whether it is healthy or unhealthy. Whether it is healthy or not will give us some “invitations” to help see whether it is a sin or not. Notice that I said, “invitation” not “proof”.

whether something is healthy for your body doesn’t really help you if it kills the soul, does it?

Sure, but only if it takes you away from God. If something is healthy for your body…then it is wise not to shut it out or shut it off form your body. Recall, “Don’t you know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit?” …so we should take care of our bodies and strive to be healthy…and not let it get poisoned with bad eating habits, lack of exercise, overexposure to the sun etc…

Now, of course, our finite physical body which is naturally deteriorating shouldn’t have higher priority than God. And He said to him, "‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’ But this doesn’t mean we should not take care of our physical body and neglect it…our physical bodies are a free gift from God. We need to be careful that we don’t let his free gifts take us away from him.

so

If healthy, then it doesn’t kill the soul

If healthy AND it separates us from God, then it does kill the soul

the reason it, along with every sin of impurity, is a mortal sin, is because it is lust, and lust is “intense sexual desire or appetite”, and the reason that is so bad is, because it enslaves you to the flesh, and makes you turn away from God,

Yes, lust is clearly bad. Now, does Masturbation = Lust ALWAYS? Is it always equivalent? Possibly instead of “intense sexual appetite that takes away from God” it is “intense desire to do God’s will and be ONE BODY with a woman” ??

Thanks and I look forward to everyone’s feedback on my questions and comments, and the scientific journals.

 

[Romulus]

See some say that sex is just for procreation but there is no Biblical evidance that that is what sex is just for.

+1 Sex is not just for procreation…it is for a married couple to become “one flesh”…an intimate union that is enjoyable and a free gift from God. Again, don’t let this free gift separate you from God…like anything else, it can be abused and misused. Furthermore, woman are not fertile all the time…so when a married couple copulate during these times, they are not following Gods plan?? Not so, they are, Natural Family Planning…sex during these times is not wasted (sex with insemination, not spilling like Onan)…helps the couple to be responsible and not having a dozen children they can’t support and supposedly helps the women to have healthier pregnancies if the couple do decide to conceive in the future.

Some may point to Onan who spilled his semon so Tamar would not get pregnant. Once again his death was not due to his “spilling of his semon” his death was about not wanting to give his dead brother a child to be his heir.

Yes, this is an interesting part of scripture. Basically, he was using the oldest form of unnatural “birth control”, was he not? On a separate issue, God struck him down because he wasn’t doing God’s Will… Correct me if I’m wrong, could this also be how God promises the “gates of hell shall not prevail against it”…say a true heretical Pope wants to use Ex Cathedra to teach error, but God takes care of him by striking him down before he can announce it…say, die in their sleep due to natural causes before the announcement of his intention.

Its just normal human behavior.

Careful, just because something is considered “normal human behavior”, doesn’t mean it is morally right.

 

[Romulus]

The reason masturbation is bad though is because when you do that, you essentially are lusting after somebody. Lusting is committing adultery in your heart.

Could “desiring to be One Flesh with somebody a.k.a following God’s will for the vocation of marriage” be misinterpreted as “lusting after somebody”?? Again, does masturbation = lust all the time?

its not good to ‘drop your seed’ that is not in the act of giving life.

Is it not good for a husband to “Drop his seed” into his wife who is in her infertile time? Will this be an act of not giving life??

 

[EmeraldWings]

(Post 1 of 2)

Who exactly is “they” and “others”?? I’ll like to read up on the findings of these researchers/scientist/etc… where can we find these published journals/articles that have results that tend to suggest that it is healthy or that it is not healthy?? uhmm…and don’t make me google…LOL…let us all find these legit sources and share them. But keep in mind, even if we do find them, anyone can always say the study was biased to either side, so there will be faith in our part to accept or not accept these studies.

I’ve made many other posts in this thread, if you haven’t already, please read through those as well,
i am not a particularly scientific person, although i by no means condone it, and although i have read and been told various things, they aren’t things i can just “pull up”, since the internet is not my sole source,
but the reason i said it doesn’t matter, is because whether it were healthy for the body or not, that would in no way shape or form change the nature of the sin,
i am not saying i believe wholeheartedly that this act is unhealthy for the body, but i have heard both ways, and quite frankly, as i said, what does it matter if it is good for the body if kills the soul?

Actually, IMO it will be wise to get into it…and it is related to the point whether it is healthy or unhealthy. Whether it is healthy or not will give us some “invitations” to help see whether it is a sin or not. Notice that I said, “invitation” not “proof”.

how does masturbation make us healthier, exactly?..it’s one thing if it’s unhealthy, but from what i’ve studied, which i am sorry i cannot pull up for you, is that after people commit this act, it leaves the mind sluggish, and the body drained…
i do not commit this act, and i am quite healthy, so what would i gain by it? and what kind of health benefits does it give?

Sure, but only if it takes you away from God. If something is healthy for your body…then it is wise not to shut it out or shut it off form your body. Recall, “Don’t you know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit?” …so we should take care of our bodies and strive to be healthy…and not let it get poisoned with bad eating habits, lack of exercise, overexposure to the sun etc…

lack of masturbation does not make you unhealthy, i am living proof of that along with many others,
and it does take you away from God, and leads to many other sins, but i have addressed that several times in my previous posts if you would like to look through them.

Now, of course, our finite physical body which is naturally deteriorating shouldn’t have higher priority than God. And He said to him, "‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’ But this doesn’t mean we should not take care of our physical body and neglect it…our physical bodies are a free gift from God. We need to be careful that we don’t let his free gifts take us away from him.

lack of masturbating is not neglecting your body, no one has ever died or suffered sickness or deformity or anything else by not masturbating,
and no your body is not a free gift from God, your body belongs to God, we have a free will to choose to either love God or hate Him, but we still belong to Him.

so

If healthy, then it doesn’t kill the soul

If healthy AND it separates us from God, then it does kill the soul

whether healthy or not, it does kill the soul, and it does separate us from God,* “Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, to refrain yourselves from carnal desires which war against the soul,”*
carnal desires, by definition, are “pertaining to or characterized by the flesh or the body, its passions and appetites; sensual: carnal pleasures, not spiritual; merely human; temporal; worldly”

it is not immoral to deny our bodies every pleasure or comfort, as many of the saints have, even Jesus Himself, it is called mortification, and the bible has this to say of mortification -
“For if you live according to the flesh, you shall die: but if by the Spirit you mortify the deeds of the flesh, you shall live.” and - “Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, lust, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is the service of idols.”

fornication, AND uncleanness, AND lust, AND evil concupiscence, AND covetousness, each of those is referring to sins against chastity, so tell me, each being apart from one another, what is uncleanness, what is lust, what is concupiscence, and what is covetousness? each being under impurity, and not referring solely to fornication, which has already been named individually.

and we know Jesus mortified Himself because we read here - “Always bearing about in our body the mortification of Jesus, that the life also of Jesus may be made manifest in our bodies.”
which brings me to another point, in order to be a disciple of Jesus, we must deny ourselves(mortify), as He says Himself * “And he said to all: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.”*
“And whosoever doth not carry his cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple.”

God teaches us to chastise the body, mortify it, make it subject to the spirit, but where in the bible does He warn us so gravely to take care of the body? although we must take care of the body and not do or neglect to do what will kill it, but on the contrary, we are told more to chastise the body and crucify it - “And they that are Christ’s, have crucified their flesh, with the vices and concupiscences.”
“concupiscences” is sexual desire, or lust.

 

[EmeraldWings]

(Post 2 of 2)

Yes, lust is clearly bad. Now, does Masturbation = Lust ALWAYS? Is it always equivalent? Possibly instead of “intense sexual appetite that takes away from God” it is “intense desire to do God’s will and be ONE BODY with a woman” ??

when done for the pleasure, Yes. and i cannot imagine any other reason that it would be done, except maybe a few rare medical cases i have heard of, in which case they do not receive any pleasure from due to the pain that induces them, but that has nothing to do with you or me or anyone else,

you must understand, that this is a mortal sin, the church says so, and if you can understand the definition of the various words the bible uses, you will see that the bible most certainly says so as well,
and whoever says it is not a mortal sin, is a heretic, as Saint Alphonsus Liguori tells us -
"can you, I ask, deny that it is a mortal sin? If you deny it, you are a heretic; for as Saint Paul says, “Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God” - 1Corinthians 9-10. It is a mortal sin; it cannot be a small evil. It is more sinful than theft, or detraction, or the violation of the fast. How then can you say that it is not a great evil? Perhaps mortal sin appears to you to be a small evil? Is it a small evil to despise the grace of God, to turn your back on Him, and to lose His friendship, for a transitory, beastly pleasure? "

actually, it would probably do you good to read his entire sermon on the matter, since he explains it immensely better than i can - catholicapologetics.info/catholicteaching/vice/impurity.htm

when debating it, it always seems to come down to what lust is, and so to better understand it, i would only recommend reading and listening to these -
audiosancto.org/categories/purity.php
columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/chastity.html
gaiaonline.com/guilds/viewtopic.php?t=18604915

 

[edjco]

I see nothing wrong with masturbation. See some say that sex is just for procreation but there is no Biblical evidance that that is what sex is just for. There is nothing in the Bible that forbids masterbation. Some may point to the phraise “be fruitful and multiply” but that was for Adam and Eve to populate the earth. **Some may point to Onan who spilled his semon so Tamar would not get pregnant. Once again his death was not due to his “spilling of his semon” his death was about not wanting to give his dead brother a child to be his heir. ** Its just something some religions see wrong and nothing more. Its not wrong nor is it a sin IMO. Its just normal human behavior. See some religions see having sex, except for procreation, is wrong but if its so wrong to have sex, with your spouse or yourself, for pleasure then why is it so pleasurable. Because thats how God made it and wanted it to be. Now some say it leads to sex addiction. for some its true and for most its not. You can get addicted to anything, ie coffee, cokes, sugar, pornography, and so on. Its easy to over due something but in moderation its not addictive. Is it better to please yourself, which is not fobiden in the Bible, or to fornicate or commit adultery, which is forbiden in the Bible and are considered sins? Most would say all 3 are wrong but only 2 have Biblical back up.

If you believe that, you obviously have never read Deuteronomy 25:7-10.

The common argument that people like you make is that God killed Onan because he didn’t follow the Law, NOT because he spilled his seed. (By the way, it’s spelled Semen).

However, the verses cited above shows EXPLICITLY that the penalty for not following this particular law was that he brother in law would be publicly humiliated, not killed. The ONLY difference between Onan and the example in Deuteronomy is that Onan “spilled his seed on the ground.”

 

[Romulus]

i am not a particularly scientific person, although i by no means condone it, and although i have read and been told various things, they aren’t things i can just “pull up”, since the internet is not my sole source,

Hmm, be nice to pull all the legit scientific findings for everyone to see and read with their own eyes.

but the reason i said it doesn’t matter, is because whether it were healthy for the body or not, that would in no way shape or form change the nature of the sin,

Sure, because our faith says that it is sinful…CCC. No problem.

how does masturbation make us healthier, exactly?..it’s one thing if it’s unhealthy, but from what i’ve studied, which i am sorry i cannot pull up for you, is that after people commit this act, it leaves the mind sluggish, and the body drained…
i do not commit this act, and i am quite healthy, so what would i gain by it? and what kind of health benefits does it give?

again, be nice to pull all the legit scientific findings for everyone to see and read with their own eyes to help answer our questions…or give “invitations” to believe in established answers.

lack of masturbation does not make you unhealthy, i am living proof of that along with many others, and it does take you away from God, and leads to many other sins, but i have addressed that several times in my previous posts if you would like to look through them.

Personal testimony is great, but only to a certain extent…can’t generalize/globalize. Again, be nice to see unbiased scientific journals…which ppl are likely to respond, saying, you will never be satisfied with any scientific published results unless it aligns with their personal take on the subject.

lack of masturbating is not neglecting your body, no one has ever died or suffered sickness or deformity or anything else by not masturbating, and

Again, sources…

no your body is not a free gift from God, your body belongs to God, we have a free will to choose to either love God or hate Him, but we still belong to Him.

I stand corrected, AMEN.

whether healthy or not, it does kill the soul, and it does separate us from God,* “Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, to refrain yourselves from carnal desires* which war against the soul,”
carnal desires, by definition, are “pertaining to or characterized by the flesh or the body, its passions and appetites; sensual: carnal pleasures, not spiritual; merely human; temporal; worldly”

Could “desiring to be One Flesh with somebody a.k.a following God’s will for the vocation of marriage” be misinterpreted as “carnal desires”?

By the way Emerald, good responses, I’ll continue reading carefully and checking out your links…I’m not solely here to have a debate with you…just asking questions to learn more on the subject.

Got any feedback to my responses to BlueShadow123 and rev kevin

 

[EmeraldWings]

Hmm, be nice to pull all the legit scientific findings for everyone to see and read with their own eyes.

well unfortunately i am more into theology rather than science, and i cannot, as i said already, pull anything up for you, because it’s not something i learned only online, although i’ve read a few things here and there, but i haven’t made a point of saving anything, and even still, as i said, it makes no difference, i brought up the point in the first place merely to say, some people say one thing while others say another thing, and who can you believe? scientists aren’t saints, and i’m sure they’d like to make sins of the flesh justified just as much as anyone else who commits the sin willingly, so all i say is, who can you trust?

Sure, because our faith says that it is sinful…CCC. No problem.

not exactly, even people of other religions can see that sins of the flesh separate them from God, as all sins do, and sins of the flesh draw us in more than any other sin,
one thing to understand about faith is, we are not called to believe blindly, although faith is believing without seeing yes, but it’s not believing without reason, God still gives us a mind to reason with and make good judgments and be rational, etc.
and God wants us to use our reason that way, He wants us to learn and not merely to accept what we are told, although we should still be obedient and do what the church tells us, but what i mean to say is, we should do both, accept it and learn it, because by learning these things you gain a better defense over them, prayer is an excellent defense as well, but knowledge(with humility) will help you not just to defend yourself, but to defend others as well.

again, be nice to pull all the legit scientific findings for everyone to see and read with their own eyes to help answer our questions…or give “invitations” to believe in established answers.

those were questions for you to answer, it’s one thing to believe with reason even if you have no proof, but it’s foolish to believe something based on a lack of reason or lack of evidence,

Personal testimony is great, but only to a certain extent…can’t generalize/globalize. Again, be nice to see unbiased scientific journals…which ppl are likely to respond, saying, you will never be satisfied with any scientific published results unless it aligns with their personal take on the subject.

the problem with science is, it does not and cannot prove anything with the spiritual, and that is where trust comes in, we trust solely on God in regards to the spiritual, because we cannot see the effects of sin on our soul.

Could “desiring to be One Flesh with somebody a.k.a following God’s will for the vocation of marriage” be misinterpreted as “carnal desires”?

not sure i understand what you mean here,
but carnal desires and the vocation of marriage are not synonyms with one another by any means, a marriage without “carnal desires” is fully possible, because a good marriage is founded on love and not desire, a good husband and wife can love each other even without intercourse, because the true beauty of love, even in marriage, is in giving, not receiving, a person who truly loves their spouse wants to make them feel good,
love is wanting the good of another, it never takes for itself, that’s why God, who is love, gave us a free will, He could not take our love or force His love on us, otherwise it just isn’t love at all, love is only genuine when it is selfless.
and so even in marriage, while it is a good thing to have intercourse, that doesn’t mean that there is perfect chastity within that marriage, even though it may not be gravely sinful.

By the way Emerald, good responses, I’ll continue reading carefully and checking out your links…I’m not solely here to have a debate with you…just asking questions to learn more on the subject.

well i’m glad, i prefer teaching to debating myself, although debating tends to happen nonetheless,
if you want to learn more, then the best i can recommend is the writings of the saints, which you can find alot of on www.tanbooks.com

 

[Romulus]

i brought up the point in the first place merely to say, some people say one thing while others say another thing, and who can you believe? scientists aren’t saints, and i’m sure they’d like to make sins of the flesh justified just as much as anyone else who commits the sin willingly, so all i say is, who can you trust?

yes, its a leap of faith.

one thing to understand about faith is, we are not called to believe blindly, although faith is believing without seeing yes, but it’s not believing without reason, God still gives us a mind to reason with and make good judgments and be rational, etc. and God wants us to use our reason that way, He wants us to learn and not merely to accept what we are told, although we should still be obedient and do what the church tells us, but what i mean to say is, we should do both, accept it and learn it, because by learning these things you gain a better defense over them, prayer is an excellent defense as well, but knowledge(with humility) will help you not just to defend yourself, but to defend others as well.

Amen, faith AND reason, the two wings that make it FLY. Now studying medical/scientific journals or the whole “research suggests” are “invitations to believe”…even if they are written by sinners like you and me or pagans or whatever…LOL… these journals will assist us in not blindly believing or not believing.

Here are some examples…want to reason which is the Church founded by Jesus…read the historical account of the early christian church…want to reason why natural family planning is God’s plan, read medical journals on the benefits of a wife absorbing her husbands semen while she is infertile and the dangerous effects of artificial contraception. Get the idea? These findings will make it “reasonable”…and of course it takes “faith” to believe in the authors whether or not they did a legit study.

those were questions for you to answer, it’s one thing to believe with reason even if you have no proof, but it’s foolish to believe something based on a lack of reason or lack of evidence,

yes, scientific/medical research can provide reasonableness and evidence or instead of evidence/proof, I believe it is better to say, “invitations to believe”

the problem with science is, it does not and cannot prove anything with the spiritual, and that is where trust comes in, we trust solely on God in regards to the spiritual, because we cannot see the effects of sin on our soul.

agreed, that is why I use the word, “invitations” to believe.

not sure i understand what you mean here,
but carnal desires and the vocation of marriage are not synonyms with one another by any means, a marriage without “carnal desires” is fully possible, because a good marriage is founded on love and not desire, a good husband and wife can love each other even without intercourse, because the true beauty of love, even in marriage, is in giving, not receiving, a person who truly loves their spouse wants to make them feel good, love is wanting the good of another, it never takes for itself, that’s why God, who is love, gave us a free will, He could not take our love or force His love on us, otherwise it just isn’t love at all, love is only genuine when it is selfless.
and so even in marriage, while it is a good thing to have intercourse, that doesn’t mean that there is perfect chastity within that marriage, even though it may not be gravely sinful.

What I mean, nobody but God knows if when a man and a woman are getting married whether they are in it for “carnal desires” or “to do God’s will and be one flesh” Someone can see it as one or the other, but cannot prove or disprove…there is where misinterpretation can happen. Only God knows, for he knows the hearts of all men.

Good stuff on the love between spouses.

Thanks for the link and I’m gonna try to dig up some trustworthy medical research on the topic of masturbation…the research that suggest any physiological & mental benefits or detriments.

If anyone else have sources, please share them here.

Have a happy new year!

 

[Andrew1983]

Thanks for the link and I’m gonna try to dig up some trustworthy medical research on the topic of masturbation…the research that suggest any physiological & mental benefits or detriments.

If anyone else have sources, please share them here.

Have a happy new year!

Here’s a good link detailing the negative side effects of masturbation.

newlifehabits.com/2007/08/07/masturbation-addiction-explained/

 

[Barsabbas]

Masturbation and impure thoughts are always sinful in nature because they are known as “disordered acts.” That is, they are brought about outside the marriage union. The sin of masturbation is all about “ME” and the pleasure I can get from solo sex. There is no giving of self to a spouse and there is certainly no blessing on this selfish act from God.