Why Islam denies the crucifixion of Christ

[planten]

The Gnostics can be likened to a cult living in a remote area, drawing on all sorts of eccentric thought, to then having discovered or found ‘lost’ gospels.

Okay, I agree. Thanks for telling me about your gnostics.

So Planten, you would rather believe Gnostics than authentic sources of witness, people who lived responsible, daily ordinary lives? These were the type of followers Jesus chose, not anti-social, anti-authority eccentrics.

Agree. I would rather not follow any of your gnostics.

Mohammed came into contact with Jews and Catholics and observed their teachings. He was all for the Jews until they rejected his 'angel’s revelation, then he went to war with them

…

I do not agree with you. Muhammad never did such a thing. I feel that you have not read the Quran.

whose beliefs regarding the House of War, revenge, and his last words, ‘Kill the Infidel’ totally contradicted Prophet, King and Messiah Jesus’ last words, ‘Forgive them, Father, as they know not what they do’…also revealing God the Father, a new message, a new revelation of how see God.

There is no such thing as “Kill the infidel” unless you define the infidel. He may be a murderer, a killer. Would you kiss them?? Please know the law of the present day world governments. They kill the criminals. So Muhammad may have said “Kill the criminals.” Those criminals may be believers or non-believers, Muslims or non-Muslims.

There was never any punishment for not becoming a Muslim.

It would be good for you to go back to NewageIslam and study all the history and work that was denied by the fundmentalist leaders, rather than go further here.

I don’t know what I will find there and what website is that. Is it a Muslim website or christian?? Please tell me.

 

[dzheremi]

Agree. I would rather not follow any of your gnostics.

You already do so by being a Muslim. Islam preserves Gnostic heresies such as the belief that Jesus Christ was not divine, that Jesus Christ was not crucified, etc. Islam is a mishmash of heresies, many with roots in Gnosticism.

 

[sedonaman]

…
How can you state:… Please tell me what the gnostics have to do with Isalm, in a few words. ~ when it’s been explained in detail up front in the thread?
…

He’s a different planten?

 

[KathleenGee]

Byzantine Wolf,
I did not see your post #405 until this morning…thank you for your kind comments…My city at one point denied the federal government from coming to set up an anti-terrorist program. My city is called the Beirut of America, and we are the capital of atheists and seditionists, and it is considered by some to be the most hostile state towards people of religion…and lawful authority of our own country.
We have the most violent mosque in the country, 2 miles from my home. But I have been an observer of history and because of my father insisting we remember the Holocaust, I have been aware of wars down through history. (I pray the Lord keep it away…) When we had 9/11, I started reading history and saw much suffering in the expansion of Islam on other people. Then we had all this influx of Muslims coming into our country, the Muslim Brotherhood…I met a Muslim woman who works at a Jewish center…very normal…from Bosnia…she said when they all come here, they get along, but when they return home, the old hostilities return.
Of course we must always be careful…I live 12 blocks from a Somali community. One hit my car and unfortunately, lied. I would like to speak more to them but I with my gender…I am not sure they would listen…atleast the Muslim woman did across town and we became friends.
What I am afraid of is the Muslim Brotherhood, have read about it, and am seeing posts and videos by Americans impacted by this organization throughout our country. I think our people are trying very hard not to stereotype…
But thanks for your comment and concern.
Kathleen

 

[KathleenGee]

Planten,

The site I came to was Muslim, www.newageIslam.com. It is very good and it is calling Muslims to study their history, the history of past scholars, the rights of women…I intend to go back to learn more about Islam through this site, and most of all its people.

Secondly, it is good to stay away from Gnostics…because the Holy Spirit is not there Who leads us to unity through truth, Truth personified in Jesus Christ.

Thirdly, I think to learn about the true Jesus and the true faith of Christianity, I would strongly recommend you take a basic course on Catholicism through a Catholic priest. That way you get the whole perspective step by step. The Catholic faith is the faith passed down by the Apostles…but people can read the Bible privately and draw on personal insights particular only to their own lives. But in reading and reflecting on the Bible in the spirit of the Church, we must never depart from the Nicene Creed.

The Nicene Creed is the final definition of Who Christ is. After He died and resurrected, over the years, people began to loose sight of His humanity. And with the loss of common humanity, comes the lost of fraternal charity and subsequent divisions, fighting, confusion, breaking away into sects…who in turn became susceptible to gnosticism. So another council came about to correct the divisions and confusion. So it took close to 400 years to thoroughly establish the teachings of Christianity!!

 

[KathleenGee]

Planten,

We are now partipating the end of the liturgical year, that ends on next Sunday, Christ the King. We are now reflecting on the End Times. From St. Peter, Ch 3, he reflects how the ancient world was destroyed by water.
He comments as well how with the Lord one day is like a thousand years and a thousand years like one day. The Lord does not delay His promise, …'but He is patient with you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a mighty roar and the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done on it will be found out…because of which the heavens will be dissolved in flames and the elements melted by fire. But according to His promise we await new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells."

Next Sunday is my last day lectoring at Mass and then I take a year off…This is to be proclaimed to the people from the first chapter of Revelations, written by St. John, the Beloved Apostle of Jesus:

 'and from Jesus Christ, the firstborn of the dead and ruler of the kings of the earth.  To Him Who loves us and has freed us from our sins by His blood, Who has made us into a kingdom, priests for His God and Father, to Him be glory and power forever (and ever).  Amen...

 "Behold He is coming amid the clouds,
  and every eye will see Him,
  even those who pierced Him.
  All the peoples of the earth will lament Him.
 Yes. Amen.

 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says t he Lord God, "the one who is and who was 
 and Who is to come, the Almighty".

Planten, seek the One True Lord. Be prepared to meet Him Who is patient with you.

 

[a195]

You already do so by being a Muslim. Islam preserves Gnostic heresies such as the belief that Jesus Christ was not divine, that Jesus Christ was not crucified, etc. Islam is a mishmash of heresies, many with roots in Gnosticism.

Since you put it that way, others can say this about you:

Christianity preserves pagan beliefs of triad gods (eg. Roman Capitoline triad). The belief that a human being is divine, died and resurrected for our sins, etc. is a mishmash of contemporary mystery cults, many with roots in Mithraism.

Go and learn the words in bold.

 

[KathleenGee]

There are a number of Evangelical/Fundamentalist sites who are drawing on the concern about pagan holidays being used in the Christian belief system.

Jesus Christ never told us His chronological date of birth. If He thought it important, He would have but with His message it wasn’t necessary.

The Jews themselves drew on ancient myths in earliest times to ask the basic human question of who we are, why were we made, where did we come from, where are we going?. There was no science then that pointed to the origins of homo sapiens.

To celebrate the seasons of the year is a universal practice and people live according to the seasons, a time to plant, a time to reap, a time to celebrate, a time to mourn…we are all the same in this regard.

The earliest Christians celebrated the Eucharist on Saturday night and then expanded to end at dawn on Sunday in recognition that Christ resurrected that day. Eventually Sunday was the official sabbath, in recognition of His life, death and resurrection, and Peter was given the keys to institute Christ’s church on earth. The Church is a human institution that incorporates the needs of people and life.

The darkest time of the year signified both the end of the liturgical year and Advent, waiting for the Light of Christ in darkness…and Christmas being the feastday of the Child ending on Epiphany, the Three Kings.

The seasons cannot be claimed as belonging to anyone. Any peoples or institution or small groups for that matter can draw on the symbolism and works of a season and inculturate it into their own culture.

 

[KathleenGee]

There are myths of men resurrected…but none actually.

Only Christ, True God and True Man…He is the atonement for sin.

We have to go beyond the Empty Tomb to see what Christ as Savior and Redeemer meant…or else you have semblance of a myth.

 

[Nine_Two]

Since you put it that way, others can say this about you:

Christianity preserves pagan beliefs of triad gods (eg. Roman Capitoline triad). The belief that a human being is divine, died and resurrected for our sins, etc. is a mishmash of contemporary mystery cults, many with roots in Mithraism.

Go and learn the words in bold.

Don’t get mad at us. Its Planten who keeps bringing up Islam’s gnostic links. Perhaps you should tell him to stop making such arguments, instead of making your own nonsense remarks.

You do a great disservice to your religion, no one is going to look at your posts and say “Wow, Islam is right!” They’re going to say “Wow, Islam has a lot of people who don’t have any link to reality.”

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Why do you say cruel things like that, shame on you.

Forgive me, but for most of this thread all you’ve done is say, “You know, that reminds me of something the founder of the Bahai said…” Everyone else has made a comment on it, not just me. I certainly wasn’t the first one to point out you were threadjacking the topic towards Bahai.

Since you put it that way, others can say this about you:

Christianity preserves pagan beliefs of triad gods (eg. Roman Capitoline triad). The belief that a human being is divine, died and resurrected for our sins, etc. is a mishmash of contemporary mystery cults, many with roots in Mithraism.

Go and learn the words in bold.

I have, actually, and I’ve heard those arguments before, and researched the validity of their claims. None of them are substantiated - in fact, when you look at the works of the early Church Fathers, they condemned practically every belief that modern atheists and Muslims claim Christians stole from.

The very idea that Christians worship “triad gods” shows a lack of understanding regarding what the Trinity is. As I always say to Muslims about the Trinity: instead of simply repeating what your Quran and imams tell you, go and do actual research from scholarly Christian sources and learn what we believe about it from our own perspective. Otherwise, if you come to a Christian forum and pronounce, “You Christians worship three gods!”, you’re going to get laughed at.

 

[KathleenGee]

Good response, Byzantine Wolf…There is alot in your sources from which people should study, and not what someone else says we are…

 

[agent_grey]

I am trying to imagine a God that creates this world. Then allows it to unfold as it has and then sitting on his High thrown comes to judge us. Dispicable. Absolutley disgusting. This God takes every single sin as his own. He shall not return from the dead but live in eternal torment for his dispacable ways.

Then I imagine a God that creates this world. God then Becomes as a man. Endures what we endure due to his good creation. I Love you God and thank you for being so Proper. Thank you for not placing a burden on little old me that you would not take upon yourself. Then I realise; this God can righteously judge as he sees fit. FEAR!

 

[DavidMark]

Baha’is do not deny the crucifixion of Christ. I only mention what my Faith says about it, in a forum meant for diverse groups to share. I 'm sorry it is perceived as hijacking. In the world at large, we should be able to all share without feeling threatening or threatened.
My wife was Iranian and she and her family had to flee Iran for their lives, where you can be locked up and forgotten for teaching Sunday School, or shot and the cost of the bullets charged to the survivors, as a threat. I’m so sorry the mullahs and others feel threatened by this wide-embrace and this surrender with fidelity.

 

[StevieD]

Of course Islam would deny the death of Jesus on the Cross and the possibility of the Resurrection.
According to the visionary Ven Mary of Agreda (whose body is incorrupt), islam was not founded by Md. but arose from a decision made by Satan on the very day of the crucifixion when it dawned on him who Jesus really was and what His sacrifice was intended to accomplish.
Islam is satan’s answer to the Incarnation, his anti-church. It seems logical, islam has been too seductive to too many and too evil to have been constructed by a lone human fantasist, he was merely the tool to draw many away from the Truth.

 

[DavidMark]

Of course Islam would deny the death of Jesus on the Cross and the possibility of the Resurrection.
According to the visionary Ven Mary of Agreda (whose body is incorrupt), islam was not founded by Md. but arose from a decision made by Satan on the very day of the crucifixion when it dawned on him who Jesus really was and what His sacrifice was intended to accomplish.
Islam is satan’s answer to the Incarnation, his anti-church. It seems logical, islam has been too seductive to too many and too evil to have been constructed by a lone human fantasist, he was merely the tool to draw many away from the Truth.

I’m sorry you have convicted yourself in this way, and shamed all the Prophets.
All the religious communities are guilty of horrible atrocities and will be accountable.
One of Islam’s mis-interpretations is the Crucifixion, which cannot be denied, so the following Verses apply to them as well…

For it is evident that whoso hath failed to acknowledge the truth of the Qur’án hath in reality failed to acknowledge the truth of the preceding Scriptures. (Baha’u’llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 204)
Every discerning observer will recognize that in the Dispensation of the Qur’án both the Book and the Cause of Jesus were confirmed. As to the matter of names, Muhammad, Himself, declared: “I am Jesus.” He recognized the truth of the signs, prophecies, and words of Jesus, and testified that they were all of God. In this sense, neither the person of Jesus nor His writings hath differed from that of Muhammad and of His holy Book, inasmuch as both have championed the Cause of God, uttered His praise, and revealed His commandments. Thus it is that Jesus, Himself, declared: **“I go away and come again unto you.” **(Baha’u’llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 20)

 

[sedonaman]

…
For it is evident that whoso hath failed to acknowledge the truth of the Qur’án hath in reality failed to acknowledge the truth of the preceding Scriptures. (Baha’u’llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 204)
Every discerning observer will recognize that in the Dispensation of the Qur’án both the Book and the Cause of Jesus were confirmed. …

This cannot be true because both the Old and New Testaments contradict the Qur’an.

 

[KathleenGee]

Revelation of the Bible is sequential and fulfilled…nothing more…and the fact that even with the Apostles, it took many people and many years to finally define the fullness of Christ to the world…that being the Nicene Council.

Judeo/Catholicism is God revealing Himself to a gathering of people, not one sole individual.

Look what Martin Luther did to Christianity and it is still splitting through his altering one word, and removing books from the bible to fit his perspective.

Then the splitting continued on…not only breaking family members away from the family core, no longer able to pray the Our Father together, but the sanctioning of divorce. This split the husband from wife. In the 1930’s, then came the splitting and denial of life for their children with the use of contraception.

This splitting apart is a sign of infidelity, of depending on one’s individualistic way of looking at things, and the inability to carry one’s cross and live in faithful trust and providence in the One, True God.

I work with many people, and find the greatest cohesion and education in Jewish families. The Catholics in this country were deliberately protestantized during the excesses of Vatican II.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

This cannot be true because both the Old and New Testaments contradict the Qur’an.

Especially regarding the crucifixion.

I find it still funny that Christians are supposed to respect the Muslim opinion on the crucifixion, when there is a great unanimity among Christians, especially in scripture, regarding the incident in contrast to the Muslim belief. Every Christian theologian agrees on these points.

• Christ was crucified on Golgotha, also known as Calvary [Matt 27:33; Mark 15:22; Luke 23:33; John 19:17]
• A sign was placed over Christ’s head [Matt 27:37; Mark 15:26; Luke 23:38; John 19:19]
• Jesus was crucified between two thieves [Matt 27:38; Mark 15:27; Luke 23:32; John 19:18]
• The garment Christ wore was divided and gambled over [Matt 27:35; Mark 15:24; Luke 23:34; John 19:23-24]
• Jesus died on the cross [Matt 27:50; Mark 15:37; Luke 23:46; John 19:30]

Muslims, on the other hand, because of the vagueness of S. 4:157, cannot agree on what happened at the crucifixion: some (such as Baidawai) mention beliefs that a disciple of Christ allowed himself to appear as Jesus to be martyred; some (such as those who uphold the Gospel of Barnabas) believe it was Judas who was put in Christ’s place; some (such as Yusuf Ali) argue for the more Docetic explanation found in S. 4:157; still others (such as Ahmed Deedat or Shabir Ali) argue for the “swoon theory,” which says Jesus later woke up and escaped the tomb; some still, recognizing the different opinions in Muslim thought, say it just doesn’t matter and we shouldn’t dwell on it. There are even wilder theories I’ve heard, including one that says Simon of Cyrene was crucified instead of Jesus!

As I argued before in this thread, it is very, very ironic to me that the Quran states that it is Christians with “no certain knowledge” and it is Christians who are full of “conjecture,” when in fact it seems the only side with that line of thinking is the side of Islam.

 

[KathleenGee]

Byzantine Wolf,

Normally, a post such as this one would settle the matter…