Why Islam denies the crucifixion of Christ

[Melkite_Sword]

It all comes down to what you use for a point of reference, for Muslims, the Qur’an as a divinely inspired book is the point of reference, this means concepts that are in disagreement with the Qur’an are considered to be of human origin. One such example would be the concept of the Trinity.

What makes you think the Quran is correct but the Bible is corrupted, I suggest you read the works of St John of Damascus, in his apology against Islam he mentions parts of the Quran that aren’t in existance today, but were back then, such as ‘The Camel of God’. The apology was written around AD 749; heres a link to read orthodoxinfo.com/general/stjohn_islam.asp

You can’t use a later revelation as a point of reference decide on the validity of previous ones, if the prvious ones contradict the later revelations, this is logically flawed. Nowhere in the Quran does it say the Gospels are corrupted, the Quran does say that they are from God and “prove” the Quran…as we have shown this is not the case.

 

[DavidMark]

It all comes down to what you use for a point of reference, for Muslims, the Qur’an as a divinely inspired book is the point of reference, this means concepts that are in disagreement with the Qur’an are considered to be of human origin. One such example would be the concept of the Trinity.

famdigy: In here, I am objected to when I try to explain the Triune relationship the way I see it, which is the way I believe Muslims view it as well. The two aspects of Holy Spirit and Prophethood bow down to the One True God. This is a pre-existent reality forever.
All three have always existed, but the two are servants to the One.
The Holy Spirit (or Gabriel, because both are credited with Announcing Jesus and bring the Qur’an) is like the rays of the sun intermediate between the source and the mirror.
The Prophets are like the reflections of the Sun in Mirrors.
Singer, Song, singing
Actor, Act, acting
Artist, Art, doing the art
This triune relationship is in the divine and human worlds everywhere.
I wish people wouldn’t argue about it for centuries and go to war over it.

 

[Jay53]

famdigy: In here, I am objected to when I try to explain the Triune relationship the way I see it, which is the way I believe Muslims view it as well. The two aspects of Holy Spirit and Prophethood bow down to the One True God. This is a pre-existent reality forever.
All three have always existed, but the two are servants to the One.
The Holy Spirit (or Gabriel, because both are credited with Announcing Jesus and bring the Qur’an) is like the rays of the sun intermediate between the source and the mirror.
The Prophets are like the reflections of the Sun in Mirrors.
Singer, Song, singing
Actor, Act, acting
Artist, Art, doing the art
This triune relationship is in the divine and human worlds everywhere.
I wish people wouldn’t argue about it for centuries and go to war over it.

Are you saying that the Holy Spirit is the Angel Gabriel? The Holy Spirit IS NOT and HAS NEVER BEEN the Angel Gabriel. NEVER EVER EVER!

If that is not what you were saying and/or implying, then feel free to ignore this post.

 

[sedonaman]

…
Would it not be safer to just avoid the bible altogether since we don’t know the bounds of its corruption?

Because if they ever did that, Mohammed’s whole pathetic edifice would collapse.

 

[sedonaman]

…
Given that we believe the Quran to be final uncorrupted revelation, …

The Mormons believe the same thing about their Book. In fact, Joseph Smith and Mormonism have almost the exact story as Mohammed and Islam, i.e., revelation by an angel, a secretly revealed book written in an esoteric language, a claim to be the final revelation by God, a self-proclamation of prophethood by its founder, and dependence on prior revelation [OT and NT] for validation [in fact, they too modified prior Scripture to conform to their beliefs].

So what makes Islam right and Mormonism wrong?

 

[KathleenGee]

DavidMark,

Look back to post 527. Then read the one given above in regards to St. John of Damascus treatise against the heresy of Mohammedism.

The thread on Why Muslims believe in Mohammed was closed. But I learned more aspects of the life of Mohammed that proved to me much was myth, as well as Jagasaki’s reference how the Quran stands on the Bible.

The same can be said of fundamentalist Christians and Mormons…without the Catholic Church being corrupt, there would not be any new churches or congregations.

My concern is that you should look more critically at the roots of Islam as well as study more in depth the nature of God according to Catholicism. I studied 1 volume of the Summa Theologica with a Dominican priest and group, and could not have done so alone. Faith and reason stand together, and we have the early church fathers to help further point out errors in the early expansion of Christianity.

 

[Nine_Two]

Because if they ever did that, Mohammed’s whole pathetic edifice would collapse.

Bingo.

 

[DavidMark]

That is where Islam is wrong. Jesus IS NOT a prophet, He is God. Islam says that it accepts the Bible as the word of God. In the Bible are many proofs for the Holy Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. All three Divine Persons, who share the one Divine nature. Therefore, Jesus as God the Son, IS God. Yet Islam denies this, and degrades Him.

Islam also claims that the Bible has been corrupted by man, yet Islam has no proof of
this. Islam then follows the traditions of men, and not those of God. Since that is the case
Islam CANNOT be called a true religion, since it denies the TRUE WORD of God and
accepts and follows the claim of a mortal man.
PAX DOMINI Shalom Aleichem

Javl and all: This perspective is not the only one, however so much you might think.

Your round-about arguments are ancient and inescapable except by the permission of God. That’s right, straitened hearts are confined within their views, unless their eyes perceive like the eye of God.
Jesus called Himself a prophet, and He was obviously more than that, --even John the Baptist was more than that. All the Prophets of God obviously reflect the will of God; obey them and you obey God, until a new Revelation by a true Prophet of God. God’s Prophets have different names and stations, but share in their divine Viceregency, as representatives of the divine Command.
Islam does not belittle Jesus, but calls deeper attention to God, “the unbegotten”. As children learn arithmetic before they can learn al-Gebra or calculus, where laws are different, yet the same. This conversion of terms is the same as converting water to wine, if we are grateful enough to imbibe.
Lord Jesus lovingly walked with Samaritans, publicans, Romans, gentles, whores, tax-collectors, lepers, etc --all manner of humanity. We should do likewise. World peace requires it. Otherwise, world war will persist, i testify before God.

Islam doesn’t deny Jesus, it promotes Him. The Qur’an simply exalts the oneness of God, who sent Jesus. Let there be an end to castigation of Muslims, who promted the veracity of the Prophets of the House of Israel to people of such savage, barbaric, polytheistic natures, we cannot fathom. That is why an intense Revelation to one man was required. But now, Muslims are subject to the same problems of interpreting without authority, and this is what they’ve done over the verse “They did not crucify Him”. This refers to the Spirit of Christ, not the body which doesn’t profit us. The Spirit is imperishable, and pre-existent.

The Lord Jesus IS God to us, but to God, a reflection. God is One, not three equal parts. Consider this carefully. Imagine the sun, reflected by means of the mediator Spirit, in the Perfect Mirror Image. All three Persons are eternal, but there is One initiator even there, in that rarified realm.

Muhammad was 40 when He began His Mission, which took 23 years. The Báb was 25, and could reveal the equivalent of the Qur’an in 5 hours. The Lord Bahá’u’lláh’s Revelation was 40 years long, and left 100 volumes! The gnawing need of the time requires these new Twin Messengers.
Individual Baha’is cannot interpret their own Writings and insist others accept it, since our Interpreters are now gone. Whatever ‘modern’ subjects were not covered in the Baha’i Text can be legislated by the Baha’i Universal House of Justice in Israel, according to the needs of the age, because this Institution was created by Bahá’u’lláh HImself, as a fulfilment of the divine Promise…

 

[DavidMark]

Th ancient Faith of God is single, not multiple, and it is Unifying not schizophrenic.

 

[KathleenGee]

DavidMark,

Without the acceptance of a central authority, inspite of mankind’s ability to perceive God’s presence in the world through fidelity, care, and respect for one’s family and neighbor, the stars and all creation, we are all split up in disagreements.

Thus, we cannot in actuality be good neighbors. Can you pray to the same God with me? Can you share with me as a friend?

Without a common faith that holds certain things as true, we cannot, and the tragedy is mankind cannot accept the universal Church. If we did, and lived good, faithful lives, this world would be not be like the one we see, but one of true peace and harmony.

 

[planten]

famdigy: In here, I am objected to when I try to explain the Triune relationship the way I see it, which is the way I believe Muslims view it as well. The two aspects of Holy Spirit and Prophethood bow down to the One True God. This is a pre-existent reality forever.
All three have always existed, but the two are servants to the One.
The Holy Spirit (or Gabriel, because both are credited with Announcing Jesus and bring the Qur’an) is like the rays of the sun intermediate between the source and the mirror.
The Prophets are like the reflections of the Sun in Mirrors.
Singer, Song, singing
Actor, Act, acting
Artist, Art, doing the art
This triune relationship is in the divine and human worlds everywhere.
I wish people wouldn’t argue about it for centuries and go to war over it.

DavidMark, will you stick to your example and explain the following matter?

Father …Holy Spirit … Son
God , Holy Spirit …Jesus

That may be understandable. But see below:

God … Holy Spirit …Prophet
Source …rays … image

Would you count the rays and the image as a God?? Did any other image (beside Jesus and Bahaullah) claim to be God? The way you describe Bahaullah as God is not fair. In that way, any pagan could say that the idol he/she has got is God for them. Is it not better to stay away from such bad ideas??

Lord Jesus had said, “Any one who has seen me has seen God.” That was a factual statement (not literal) because Jesus was in the field, preaching to his people openly. The huge crowd were following Jesus. Jesus was showing miracles openly. People witnessed those miracles.

I doubt if such thing happened in the case of Bahaullah. The Baha’i activity was some secret or underground (limited) activity. It was not preached openly. There was no real struggle. I believe that there was some persecution. As the news spread of the Baha’i teachings, the Iranian Mullas must have opposed it and may have tried to nip the movement in the bud. But it survived.

My interest was only in pointing out the difference in the case of Lord Jesus and Mr. Bahaullah. The two persons have nothing in common. The Immaculate birth of Jesus and the raising of the dead to life and driving out the foul spirits and forgiving sins and open speeches and the large crowds following Jesus. There was nothing of the kind with Bahaullah.

 

[sedonaman]

…
The way you describe Bahaullah as God is not fair. In that way, any pagan could say that the idol he/she has got is God for them. Is it not better to stay away from such bad ideas??
…

This is EXACTLY what Mohammed did, i.e., proclaimed himself a prophet. And yes, it is better to stay away from bad ideas like Mohammed’s.

 

[DavidMark]

DavidMark,

Without the acceptance of a central authority, inspite of mankind’s ability to perceive God’s presence in the world through fidelity, care, and respect for one’s family and neighbor, the stars and all creation, we are all split up in disagreements.

Thus, we cannot in actuality be good neighbors. Can you pray to the same God with me? Can you share with me as a friend?

Without a common faith that holds certain things as true, we cannot, and the tragedy is mankind cannot accept the universal Church. If we did, and lived good, faithful lives, this world would be not be like the one we see, but one of true peace and harmony.

As usual Kathleen, your responses show equanamity reminiscent of a queen.
Both Muslims and Christians claim that the authority of their Book is from God. “So let’s pray to God, shall we” …we should say to others.
But, this appears to be an irresolvable conflict –such that we have had 1500 years of war, with few peaceful interludes. Muslim advances were met with opposition. Atrocities were committed on both sides. Civil war in the Iberian peninsula for 700 years, during which castles were fortified on both sides. Popes called up crusades for 200 years. Now we have global islamist terrorism.
Muslims did not send successful missions to the Americas; and they will never be successful, among Christians, if they deny that Jesus is God’s Son or that He was crucified on the cross.
The Catholics say Jesus is God, and the three parts of the Trinity are equal. Islam stressed the oneness of God, and moderated the tendency to deify Jesus. On the face of it, these deep doctrinal differences seem irreconcilable. If there’s a way to resolve them, mankind, unaided, does not know how to find it. We need God’s help.

The human race is like a starry night, which will all fade away at the dawn of the Ancient Day-Star.
We can say that humans are like gods to the rest of creation; but God desires that we worship Him.
Humanity gradually had to be weaned away from its belief in false gods. Many kings claimed they were born of gods. The Babylonians, the people of Pharaoh, Alexander and Caesar wanted to say that this or that god was their king’s sire.
Then, the One True God caused Jesus to appear with His perfections, His attributes and signs. Of all men, the divine Manifestations of God are Prophets of the highest order. They appear like a one spiritual sun that has arisen many times and will many times arise again.
Each time this Holy One appears, He educates humanity according to its needs. The reality of Christ was His pre-existent spiritual perfections; He possessed these before He was born in Bethlehem. He was not touched by crucifixion, and was willing to sacrifice Himself, to awaken us.
Muhammad’s supreme goal was to teach us submission to the Eternal Unbegotten God, above all else.

 

[DavidMark]

DavidMark, will you stick to your example and explain the following matter?

Father …Holy Spirit … Son
God , Holy Spirit …Jesus

That may be understandable. But see below:

God … Holy Spirit …Prophet
Source …rays … image

Would you count the rays and the image as a God?? Did any other image (beside Jesus and Bahaullah) claim to be God? The way you describe Bahaullah as God is not fair.
In that way, any pagan could say that the idol he/she has got is God for them. Is it not better to stay away from such bad ideas??

Lord Jesus had said, “Any one who has seen me has seen God.” That was a factual statement (not literal) because Jesus was in the field, preaching to his people openly. The huge crowd were following Jesus. Jesus was showing miracles openly. People witnessed those miracles.

My interest was only in pointing out the difference in the case of Lord Jesus and Mr. Bahaullah. The two persons have nothing in common. The Immaculate birth of Jesus and the raising of the dead to life and driving out the foul spirits and forgiving sins and open speeches and the large crowds following Jesus. There was nothing of the kind with Bahaullah.

The rays and the image of the Spirit and heart of Jesus are also “God” derived from the One Source. The rays of a sun are its obvious characteristic. It is a perfect analogy. The mirrors will show what they reflect; a true heart and eye cannot be fooled.
I have tried to show that previous Messengers had divine authority, yet different titles.
Only a full moon can say it is full, although other phases have exactly the same light.
For us the raising of the dead must imply spiritual rescue. A “raised” physical body, like Lazarus, is subject to kick the bucket again. “The flesh profiteth nothing.”
Utterly new miracles were destined for this Dispensation, which the world has not “seen” yet. I’m sure you’re familiar with the second attempt required to kill the Báb; but we don’t trumpet that as a proof of His Mission. The revelation, by a 25 year old Persian, of the equivalent of the Qur’án, in eloquent Arabic, in 5 hours, is.

 

[KathleenGee]

I think my response to you on the message of prophets on another thread can be answered the same here…

the image of the moon…there was quite a discussion on ‘why Muslims believe in the Message of Muhammed’ this past week with lunar pictures, people bowing in prayer, and so on. It was closed as a thread.

The moon does not give light. It reflects light in darkness.

 

[EagleWatch]

Kathleen, that is for me one of the most painful factors to me when I debate, speak to or listen to Muslims. They are perishing, and do not know it, because they are ingrained with a way of thinking, and belong to a faith that, whether they can admit it or not, forces them to lie. I don’t necessarily mean taqqiya, which you referred to later on in your post, but the double standards we see so often in Muslim apologetics. Classic example: the Bible is the inspired word of God…until it contradicts Islam, then it’s been corrupted. When I realized how intellectually dishonest this was, it was one of the factors that helped bring me back to Christ. Unfortunately, many Muslims don’t seem to realize that.

I think too often, especially around here, people debate Muslims to make them look stupid. They’re no better than the Muslims who debate Christians just to earn points from their side. The fact is, debate and discussion should be about presenting the truth to people, just as Paul presented the truth before the Romans and Jews. I do not preach Christ because it is correct, but because He is the Truth.

Well said brother. And I thank **God for bringing you back **and for all who are witnessing Jesus here and exposing the deceit.

God bless

 

[EagleWatch]

do you really believe Jesus was god,and then at the same time he died on the cross? why would God do such a thing? did the enemies win over Gods power when they killed him on the cross? or was the killing something he wanted them to do? if thats the case,then praise the killers of Jesus! and during those days he was dead…was the world without GOD? or was the world with “twonity” since the third was dead?

those are my questions

Following is a partial quote of my write up from another post - Hope this will help explain Her

There are some Muslims asking how come if God incarnated as Human how then the God can be in heaven at the same time – thus denying the fact of incarnation.

May I put one more example to understand this aspect comparing with the computer game?

For example if we want to do a car race we can get a real car and do it in real time in real world of our existence or get into a computer game enjoy simulated experience in a cyber world. There will be a car and an image too for us, other cars, and persons. There are laws defined in that cyber world. We are to follow the laws defined there to win the race. If you fail that standards you have start again all over. While we being outside the cyber world will be controlling all the actions of our image. The failures, successes and emotions will be directly transferred to us.

Thus God let the Word of God (Son) being born as Jesus as his image among men in our world of existence and lived in Him and did the act of salvation by fulfilling the laws set for us in this world while at the same time existing Heaven outside our world of existence.

This is an explanation but not theology. This is given to understand the situation. Hope these would find helpful for anyone in pursuit of Truth and Jesus.

God Bless

 

[EagleWatch]

Did not like it? He expected it.

“Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and to the scribes; and they will condemn Him to death, and deliver Him to the Gentiles to mock and to scourge and to crucify. And the third day He will rise again.” [Matthew 20:18-19]

“You know that after two days is the Passover, and the Son of Man will be delivered up to be crucified.” [Matthew 26:2]

Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem." [Luke 24:46-47]

Yes, Christ did pray regarding the cup of crucifixion to pass Him by. But what was His prayer? “Nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will.” This was a prime example of Christ’s two-natures and two-wills, also known as the hypostatic union - He was fully man and fully God. His human nature was fearful of death, and His human will sought a way out; but His divine nature knew what the crucifixion would mean for all of mankind, and His divine will submitted to the will of the Father. What was His Father’s will? That He should be crucified, so that there could be remission of sins for all nations. That is the true context of the text entire. It is also worthy to note that right after these passages Christ is arrested, wrongfully accused, tortured, and crucified - and He embraced His fate in that regard.

You are playing pick and choose with the scripture. What does scripture say after it says Christ’s legs were not broken? Let’s review.

But when they came to Jesus and saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs. But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out. [John 19:33-34]

They didn’t leave Jesus alone - they stabbed Him to make sure He was dead. Your assertion also leaves out what every single Gospel says: that Jesus died on the cross.

And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. [Matt 27:50]

And Jesus cried out with a loud voice, and breathed His last. [Mark 15:37]

…Having said this, He breathed His last. [Luke 23:46]

…And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit. [John 19:30]

If you are going to quote Christian scripture to prove your point, at least quote it with exegesis and not eisegesis.

No, the angel encouraged Him for what was to follow, which is exactly what followed in scripture: Jesus was arrested and brought to the Romans and crucified.

There is absolutely, positively no scriptural support for your assertions. The only way you can possibly come to these conclusions is to grab a few passages and distort their meaning to prove your presupposition…which is exactly what you’ve done.

That was a good answer. God bless you

 

[DavidMark]

I agree. Those four quotes vividly verify the physical death of Jesus on the cross;
but the pre-existent Logos could never be killed. It was ‘taken up’.

 

[KathleenGee]

St. John the Beloved Disciple, who understood Jesus’ mission of love, and in love we have the greatest strength and courage, stood by the Cross with Mary His Mother, and Mary Magdalen, and others.

We reflect as well on the post I shared with you on messages from prophets…that we must be attentive to the whole of Scripture, read the Word of God in light of Sacred Tradition, and in the Apostolic tradition.

St. John was witness to the crucifixion…'after He had taken the wine, He said,“it is consummated!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit…Piercing His side, The Jews therefore, since it was the Preparation Day, in order that the bodies might not remain upon the Cross on the Sabbath, (for the Sabbath was a solemn day), besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first, and of the other, who had been crucified with Him. But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was already dead, they did not break His legs; but one of the soldiers opened His side with a lance, and immediately there came out blood and water. And he who saw it has borne witness, and his witness is true; and he knows that he tells the truth, that you may also believe. For these things came to pass that the Scripture might be fulfilled. “Not a bone of Him shall you break.:” And again another Scripture says, “They shall look upon Him whom they have pierced.” I took this version from the Latin Vulgate Dhoay Rheims…

There were other prophecies in Scripture that were fulfilled at the Crucifixion, Jesus placed among criminals for one.

So as St. John said, Jesus was lanced and blood and water came out…it symbolizing as well our salvation through baptism and the shedding of His blood…have you heard of the devotion to Divine Mercy? This feast day is now practiced the Sunday after Easter through Pope John Paul II.