Why Islam ?

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Munawar:
Hello Iamrefreshed,

When Qurans are translated into English, they are written for an audience used to the Bible. Hence, the prose can be Old English, and the numbering is in Roman Numerals.

Munawar
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Hi Munawar. Glad to see you back. I guess that makes sense but, my New American Bible doesn’t use them either! Go figure!
 
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Munawar:
…When Qurans are translated into English, they are written for an audience used to the Bible. Hence, the prose can be Old English, and the numbering is in Roman Numerals.
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I don’t think the Qur’an is translated into Old English today, it would almost be easier to read the Arabic.

Fæder ure þu þe eart on heofonum; Si þin nama gehalgod to becume þin rice gewurþe ðin willa on eorðan swa swa on heofonum. urne gedæghwamlican hlaf syle us todæg and forgyf us ure gyltas swa swa we forgyfað urum gyltendum and ne gelæd þu us on costnunge ac alys us of yfele soþlice.
 
Why Islam? What have we learned so far?


  1. *]Insist that violent passages in the Quran only apply to long-ago historical incidents (like the battle of Badr), but then also insist that the Quran is a book of guidance "for all times and all people."
    *]Insist that Muhammad’s actions can’t be judged by today’s more humane human rights standards, while at the same time, and insist that he is the perfect “Model” for all Mankind today.
    *]Insist that Islam is a “religion of peace”, while at the same time, brag about the great military victories of Muhammad, Abu Bakr, Umar, Khalid bin Al-Waheed and Saladin.
    *]Insist that Islam is “not a missionary religion”, while at the same time publish endless articles about “how to do dawah” on hundreds of dawah websites. (dawah means invitation to Islam).
    *]Insist that “truth stands from error” and that Islam can stand on its own merits as the “one true religion”, while laboring endlessly to squash all criticism and discussion of Islam.
    *]Insist that the laws in Saudi Arabia, Iran and Afghanistan are unIslamic while trying to get them implemented in the west, India and other kafir societies.
    *]Insist that women achieve TRUE liberation through Islam! Never mind those pesky ideas about real equality with men in all areas of life, men and women are so different, and shari’ah “realistically” acknowledges these differences, unlike those evil man-made law systems that suggest otherwise!
    *]Insist how “liberating” it is for women to wear a piece of cloth on their heads.
    *]Insist that Jihad has nothing to do with violence. It’s simply struggling with pen; tongue etc. at the same time looking for atomic bomb to use in Kafir countries.
    *]Insist that most of the scientific inventions were foretold in Quran but no one ever invented anything out of Quran.
    *]Insist that Muslims should enjoy all human rights and make infinite number of mosques in western countries but ban Kafirs from Mecca and Medina. Preaching of any other religion is not allowed in any Islamic country.
    *]Insist that women in Islam are privileged in an unparalleled manner and their equality with men have never been achieved in history like it was done in Islam, yet use every trick in the book to show that they lack the wisdom and fair judgment of men and consequently, men must reserve the right to BEAT them if they go astray, of course as a “last resort”.
    *]Insist that Islam is against slavery and then demonstrate how humanely Muhammad treated HIS SLAVES as proof of it.
    *]Insist that Islam “Is a complete way of life”, not just a religion. But when others criticize things like the burka and honor killings, say that it’s the fault of “culture”, not Islam.
    *]Insist that the Quran is the word of god, is protected against corruption, and is unchanged since Muhammad’s death, despite the existence of multiple versions and histories attesting to changes that were made.
    *]Insist in demanding for more rights and perks from kafirs in kafir countries via freedom of religion, while condoning the killing of the kafirs in Islamic countries and preventing them from following their religion.
    *]Insist that Islam liberated women when no Islamic society treats them nicely.
    *]Insist that Islam will one day dominate the world when Muslim countries are sinking deeper in poverty and soon will face massive starvation.
    *]Insist that Muhammad was a perfect role model and a Mercy of God among men and hide the fact that he lied, raped, tortured, killed, robbed and was a pedophile.
    *]Insist that Quran cannot be translated into any other tongue except Arabic, the language of God, when those who say this themselves do not know how to speak Arabic.
 
More…


  1. *]Insist that terrorist attacks in the name of Islam are not perpetrated by Muslims, but the countries who are the victims of the terrorist attacks deserve it because of their foreign policy towards Islamic countries.
    *]Insist on the evils of the Western culture and the virtues of Islam but at the same time do everything possible to immigrate to the West in order to escape oppression of the Islamic countries.
    *]Insist that Muslims are persecuted in Israel, India, Philippines, Thailand, etc but continue expanding Islamic terrorism around the world.
    *]Insist that Islam is a logical religion and everyone with pure motives will become a Muslim while forgetting that their own ancestors were forced to accept Islam and many were killed for resisting.
    *]Insist that only Islam (Quran and Sahih Hadiths) is the Absolute Truth and that every other religious book is corrupted and unreliable, but at the same time try to ‘prove’ Islam by referring to the same “corrupted” sources that they decry.
    *]Insist that some of the Sahih (‘reliable’) Hadiths are actually not reliable at all but at the same time not recognizing the problems this poses for the claim that Sharia is the only valid legal system, as the Sharia laws are based for a big part on those Sahih Hadith collections.
    *]Insist that Islam has no superstitions while there are prescribed prayers and rituals to combat black magic, witchcraft, sorcery, evil eyes, stone throwing jinns etc.
    *]Criticize Western governments for killing Muslims but remain silent in general when it comes to Muslim governments killing Muslims.
    *]Claim how Arab civilization contributed to modern civilization but yet fail to address why the least civilized countries in today’s world are Arab and Muslim countries (note: high illiteracy, high unemployment, low standard of living).
    *]Insist that Christianity is pagan but yet follows a prophet who originally claimed that the pagan high god of his people, the Arabs, is the one true God.
    *]Attack Christianity by saying that the Bible has contradictions, but yet appeal to the very same bible to find prophecies about Muhammad in it. Hence we have a prophet and a god, named Allah who contradicts himself.
    *]Criticize Israel for invading Israel but remain silent when Arab Muslims invaded Africa 13 centuries ago and then say that Islam made them civilized! (So it’s okay if Arabs invade other people’s country as long as it is done in a civilized manner).
    *]Claim that Zionism is trying to rule the world when the entire Middle East is controlled by Islamic and Arab ruling countries
    *]Presents Zionism as being racism but yet follows a holy book and prophet which says they must kill Jews just for being Jewish. Go figure.
    *]Present pictures of alleged American atrocities against Muslim children but make no attempt to show pictures of how Saddam, the Taliban and other Algerian Islamic groups murder Muslims.
    *]Claim that St. Paul was a self-proclaimed apostle while following Muhammad who was the only one to promote himself as the “seal of apostles”.
    *]Claim that Muhammad spoke the words of God even though their own evidence stems from the words of Muhammad who assumed that he spoke the words of God which is to be assumed to be true since we must assume that Muhammad is an apostle. Talk about circular reasoning.
 
OK I will stop after this…

  1. *]Say that the U.S. is treating Muslim Iraqis wrong when some of the richest people on earth, who are Muslim, don’t make any effort to send them huge sums of money and treat them right. (Shows you how much they really care about their fellow brethren)
    *]Insist that Israel is occupying Palestine, never mind that the Arabs have been occupying North Africa and countries such as Egypt and Sudan since the 8th century.
    *]Insist that Islam is the true religion of God and present evidence of its truthfulness based on the number of new converts. Hence, number determines truthfulness. Never mind the fact that Christianity is larger than Islam and therefore we must assume that Islam is false until it surpasses Christianity in number.
    *]Accuse Israel of violating human rights of Palestinians even though we know of no Islamic country we can emulate as a true example of human rights.
    *]Get angry at the U.S. for invading Iraq to get rid of Saddam but apparently tolerates when Saddam kills innocent Muslims. (I guess they aren’t their brother’s keepers but this job must be given to the infidels.)
    *]Accuse the west of being infidels just because we know how to read, write and recite books other than the Quran.
    *]Criticize Christian evangelism when they immigrated to lands founded upon the principles of Christianity. (Maybe they should go back to the Middle East and see how much freedom they will have there.)
    *]Want freedom of expression in following Islam but consistently attempts to disallow this same expression when it comes to criticizing Islam. Talk about a double standard.
    *]Insist the Christians adhere to the true sayings of Jesus in the Quran even though the Quran wasn’t invented until 7th century and the NT documents comes from the same time frame of his life.
    *]Attack the Bible by saying that it is corrupted because we allegedly don’t have the NT documents from within the first 200 years (which is absolutely false based on recent NT document evidence) of Jesus but insist that we must follow the Quran which is true EVEN THOUGH IT IS 700 YEARS AFTER THE LIFE OF JESUS.
    *]Insist that Arabic is the language of God **even though he revealed the Torah in Hebrew, the books of Nehemiah and Ezra in Aramaic and the NT in Greek. **
    *]Refer to the Quran to prove Bible corruption **even though the Quran doesn’t tell us what verses or books or information in the Bible is corrupted. **
    *]Claim that St. Paul was a liar who invented Christianity **but yet appeals to this same liar when it comes to him preaching to the Arabs in their native tongue and then claimed that he used the name “Allah”. **
    *]Insist that Paul treated women wrong in 2 Corinthians but make no mentioned that Islam doesn’t allow women to speak or lead mosques or become Sheiks. Let’s not forget that women may be beaten also by their husbands.
    *]Accuse Christians of the west of being sexually perverted **while exhaustively attempting to justify Muhammad sleeping with Aisha when she was 9 and he was 53. **
    *]Claim that Muhammad’s marriage to the 9 year old Aisha was a common culture practice of the day EVEN THOUGH Muhammad supposed to transcend man-made cultures and represent a model for all mankind.
    *]Insist that the Quran is a guide for all mankind; needless to say that most of mankind doesn’t know a lick of Arabic.
 
why? I have not a problem with the morality of Islam. I believe that it is an innate necessity in all humanity to live justly and respectfuly to survive in society. This extends thoughout every and all culture and language. I greatly respect and admire the devotion in practical worship .

my reservation is in doctrine, and this central doctrine is whether or not God can reveal truth to the mind of humanity.

I Believe God is an objective reality regardless of how I sense or conceptualize with my mind generally or specificly. I know that there are limits to what a created being can do. BUT I can with my sense perception (which i believe is a gift from God) conceptualize an object within my mind and at the same time realize that there is an objective reality to what I can percieve sensually.

and futhermore I can percieve my own being and humanity both generally and specificly, but my objectivity can become flawed (and this i also believe is one of the gifts of God which have been lost by propagation). The ability to see something as it is in itself I think can be compared to standing outside of the sphere of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, whereas by propagation we are trapped with in it.

But when Christ said to love (AGAPE) one another means to step outside of this sphere to not only percieve my own being and humanity but to also percieve the being and humanity of every person in the world. And this is the basis of all justice and morality. This is respect.

I admit that I donot know much about Islam , regardless of what I have seen in the media, I believe that Christianity and Islam share basicly similar beliefs about justice and morality.
And I am not surprised by the violence , which I see as a transition of wealth and economy and fear of change , which will happen to every kind of society.when it’s members think its actual survival of its culture is under attack.
 
quick point that some people may not have already detected

Even if Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world,** that does not mean it is so because of converts**, but a combination of converts and birthrates (I suspect that birthrates have a lot to do with it because Muslim families are often very large and often have lot of children, brothers, sisters, cousins etc)

This article claims that Islam is **not ** the fastest growing religion in the world
bible.ca/islam/islam-myths-fastest-growing.htm

Testimonies of Muslims who became Christians
answering-islam.org/Testimonies/index.html

‘More is Better?’
answering-islam.org.uk/Assumptions/moreisbetter.htm

In addition to all this, I suspect that many who leave Islam and convert to Christianity aren’t very open about this and do so secretly because the punishment for leaving Islam is death. Even in the west, I suspect Muslims will be scared to be open about it in fear of someone hurting them or killing them.
 
Islam doesn’t interest me in the slightest, what Paul says in GALATIANS is all I need to know.

Getting me interested in Islam after reading that is like flogging a dead horse. :yawn: Galatians
 
Deus Vult:
*]Insist that Islam is against slavery and then demonstrate how humanely Muhammad treated HIS SLAVES as proof of it.
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Remember when the black “leaders” like Jesse Jackson wanted to sue U.S. corporations for alleged involvement in Southern slavery and wanted slave reparations from the U.S. government?

I guess the lawsuits should be directed at Muslim countries since 95% (conservative figure) of all african slavery was done by Muslims. Slave trade was big business in muslim lands centuries before European slave trade and centuries after the abolishment of slavery in the western world. In fact, slavery still goes on today in Sudan. NAACP should have a big fat target for reparations in the muslim world.
 
Friends,

I don’t know why Deen was suspended. I don’t discern anything in this thread that would have done him in. But perhaps it is something he said elsewhere. At any rate that is up to the moderators.

Nevertheless, his point about modesty and lack of it in Western countries seems a point well taken. Immodesty is an expression of idolatry (we love sexual stimulation more than we do God). I wonder why immodesty has become so popular in Western nations in which Christianity has been traditionally the strongest? I wonder why immodesty seems to be more prevalent in some Churches and less so in others? Finally, I wonder beyond the anecdotal evidence, how much the lack of modesty among people in Western nations has affected conversions to Islam?

CDL
 
I remember reading the name Deen in www.islamicity.com
And I also remember a non moslem member there asking if he could post stories of people leaving Islam and it wasn’t allowed. Talking about double standard.

The biggest reason for converting to Islam, as long as I know is by marriage. Western men/women (not you guys, but overally) tend to be secular and don’t consider religion very importantly. When they fall in love to moslems, they change their religion easily.

The growth of Islam is a mythe. They never consider the growing of people leaving Islam, eg. 2 million moslems in Russia converted to Christianity. Then the conversion in Africa. They also strickly prohibited their citizens (in Islamic country) to convert, and ban (restrict) religious activities other than Islam.
 
Hey deen, how long have muslims had to catch up, about 1000-1500 years and yous havent. Just because there is a burst in islam in this century how do you know it wont decline in the next?
The same thing happened when the beatles converted to hinduism, everyone followed, thats western society.
If its punishable to leave islam then how do you know just as many have left without informing authorities? Islams culture is arabic and you will see with the next world war that arabic and western culture dont mix. LOL muslims havent contributed anything to science for a very very very long time. Look at all the muslim countries, you’ll notice that they all have somtheing in common, there all poor and war torn.
 
prophetofdoom.net is a site by craig winn. People judge him without reading his material, even though he uses islams earliest sources and a number of different translations.
 
That’s true. The Arabs used to be leader in science and math. Then, came Islam and everything was haraam (anti-Allah). Alexandria’s library was burned down and everything was lost. Luckily, Christian monks copied and preserved most of the ancient works. Then, Islam started its slow decline. Instead of admitting its decline and solving problems within the Islam world, they blame it on infidel America. If the infidels are so bad, why are Muslims love everything infidel like movies, music, cars, etc?

Seriously, if the world was Islam, y’all be walking now. No fast car, no internet, no mobilephone, no computer, no Catholic Answer Forum, no space exploration, no Beethovan.

M1
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melbourne_guy:
Hey deen, how long have muslims had to catch up, about 1000-1500 years and yous havent. Just because there is a burst in islam in this century how do you know it wont decline in the next?
The same thing happened when the beatles converted to hinduism, everyone followed, thats western society.
If its punishable to leave islam then how do you know just as many have left without informing authorities? Islams culture is arabic and you will see with the next world war that arabic and western culture dont mix. LOL muslims havent contributed anything to science for a very very very long time. Look at all the muslim countries, you’ll notice that they all have somtheing in common, there all poor and war torn.
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Neverland:
The biggest reason for converting to Islam, as long as I know is by marriage. Western men/women (not you guys, but overally) tend to be secular and don’t consider religion very importantly. When they fall in love to moslems, they change their religion easily.
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Yes, I think that is one of the biggest reasons, if not the biggest reason, for converting to Islam. Specifically in the west, there seems to be a lot of females in the west who marry Muslim men and convert for them. I suspect a lot of these females who convert are ignorant of both Islam and Christianity, so i doubt that they converted because they were seeking the truth and not for marriage (i know that they don’t have to convert, because Islam allows its men to marry Christian women, but often the man pressures her e.g. by forbiding her to baptize the children or forbiding her to take the children to Church and telling her that the children must be raised as Muslims etc and she may convert because of this or she may convert just to make him happy etc). Obviously, I guess that some of them actually believe it is true and convert, but I suspect the majority do it for marriage.
 
MugenOne,

Your history is mixed up. The Arab advances in science and math were during the early Islamic centuries, not before Islam. The pre-Muslim Arabs were a tribal people and were not particularly “advanced” in science and technology.

Edwin
 
MugenOne said:
That’s true. The Arabs used to be leader in science and math. Then, came Islam and everything was haraam (anti-Allah).
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Really? And here I thought it was the Church that killed anyone that said anything “scientific” that didnt agree with them…

in any case…please prove evidence for your claim.
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In the past, there was a time when Christianity was mislead by blind devotion and forgot about LOVE. But we recovered and here we are now.

Sadly, Islam not only follows the mistake made by Christianity, it enhances the mistake.

You ask about the proof. How about logical proof?

Before Islam came to conquer Persia, Persia was among the most civilized nation. Given they keep up with their advancement, they could have achieve everything some hundred years faster than the western civilization.
But Islam came, and there was stagnation. And here we have Iran now. And I feel sad for those brave yet oppressed brave men and women, killed or tortured while nobody seem to care.
 
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Contarini:
MugenOne,

Your history is mixed up. The Arab advances in science and math were during the early Islamic centuries, not before Islam. The pre-Muslim Arabs were a tribal people and were not particularly “advanced” in science and technology.

Edwin
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Strong Muslim forces swept through and overtook rich Persia, Spain, India… etc and inherited their civilisations, philosophies, findings, inventions as their own. They replaced the kuffars’ system of government with that of Islam and those Golden Geese that laid the golden eggs perished … thus ended the Golden Age of Islam … fortunately though! 😃 … and it has been like that ever after!
 
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