Why isn’t Thomas à Kempis a saint? Or is He?

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This whole idea of him being burried alive really has bothered me. I literally had nightmares last night about this.
 
Echo_Romeo said:
Hello Dulcissima – my first posting. The name »Thomas a Kempis« made me sign in here.

My name is Peter, and I’m living just a quarter of an hour from Kempen, the birth town of Thomas. (Which is a very beautiful medieval town!)

On the Homepage of Kempen I found this short English biografie.

I never heard about a fact that he had been buried alive or prematurely. I guess that’s some kind of popular myth. And if the trustworthy Catholic Encyclopedia doesn’t know anything of it, I guess it cannot be confirmed. But I could ask friends in Kempen. They should be able to clarify the matter.

Many greetings
from Thomas’ country,
Peter
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Hello Peter. Welcome to the forums. I guess it is a small world…my son just left for school wearing his Germany World Cup t-shirt.

If you ever do have the opportunity to learn more about this alleged premature burial myth, I would certainly appreciate it. I’ve looked around the internet and there are a few different versions – his coffin had scratch marks, he had splinters under his nails, and even that he had clumps of his own hair that he pulled out after being buried alive. None of these sites ever lists any type of a source for such outrageous claims. I just wonder where such a story would get its start.

Merry Christmas and thanks for posting!

Mary
 
Yes, I noticed some or the different variations. I guess they are more or less inventions. I was surprised that I had never heard anything about that, and I made a Google request with some identical keywords in English and in German. No German site knows anything about that matter.

But occasionally I ordered a book in Kempen, so previously I’ll be going there tomorrow. Perhaps I’ll find something about him. Now I am curious – not so much about that story, but what his life was looking like.

(The biggest part of his life he seems to have spent in Zwolle which belongs to the Netherlands.)

And to your son: 👍 Greetings from over the Ocean!
 
Now that is really interesting that it does not appear on any German sites. I saw these rumors on sites from the US, Canada, England, and even South Africa – all English languages sites. Since he is German and buried in Germany the sources for such information should be in German.

It does seem very odd though that an urban legend would spring up out of nowhere about someone who died in the 15th century.
 
Hello, bad news …

the rumour about this scary tale exists in germany, too. But I couldn’t yet trace it to a very substancial historical source.

All I can say is that there was a nearly obsessive fear of being buried alive in the 1900ths. So this could be a possible explanation for this »legend«.

Another explanation could be that in times of beginning reformation in our region it seemed to be doubtful wether to canonize an man who was read and kept in great esteem by the Protestants. Would be, as my friend said, to whom I spoke about the issue, the pragmatical reason for not-canonizing Thomas.

The third thesis is held by another friend of mine who always consideres himself a liberal theologian. He told that Thomas’ community, the »Brüder vom Gemeinsamen Leben« (Brothers of Common Life) was not clever or tough enough to push their own brother through a canonization process. Hmmm. (Don’t agree.)

The friend who gave me these informations just added: »Perhaps its just because he didn’t perform a miracle?«

I really like the thought that he just did a step behind his own books of the Imitation of Christ. As if he wanted to stay »the friend of the groom« in perfect silence after having written this wonderful book.
 
“Doesn’t matter in the slightest. The works do exist, and most of them are unadulterated genius on many different levels.”

But please indulge me, if you will. If the dude didn’t exist, how can he made a saint?:confused:
 
Echo_Romeo said:
Hello, bad news …

the rumour about this scary tale exists in germany, too. But I couldn’t yet trace it to a very substancial historical source.

All I can say is that there was a nearly obsessive fear of being buried alive in the 1900ths. So this could be a possible explanation for this »legend«.

Another explanation could be that in times of beginning reformation in our region it seemed to be doubtful wether to canonize an man who was read and kept in great esteem by the Protestants. Would be, as my friend said, to whom I spoke about the issue, the pragmatical reason for not-canonizing Thomas.

The third thesis is held by another friend of mine who always consideres himself a liberal theologian. He told that Thomas’ community, the »Brüder vom Gemeinsamen Leben« (Brothers of Common Life) was not clever or tough enough to push their own brother through a canonization process. Hmmm. (Don’t agree.)

The friend who gave me these informations just added: »Perhaps its just because he didn’t perform a miracle?«

I really like the thought that he just did a step behind his own books of the Imitation of Christ. As if he wanted to stay »the friend of the groom« in perfect silence after having written this wonderful book.
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I guess that it does sound rather possible that he was buried alive. However, I still wonder if that in and of itself would be considered an automatic grounds for ending the canonization process. I would find this very surprising. I think the other possibilities you mentioned to be far more likely, particularly the last one.
 
PauloFreire2 said:
“Doesn’t matter in the slightest. The works do exist, and most of them are unadulterated genius on many different levels.”

But please indulge me, if you will. If the dude didn’t exist, how can he made a saint?:confused:
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“If the dude didn’t exist”??? We’ve been discussing his body being disinterred.
 
Oh, that doesn’t prove his existence … 😃

(Today I have been to the streets where Thomas played as a child … but (shame upon me!) just to do some last minute Christmas shopping …)

No, his existence is as clear as for any medieval person. Same - as I guess - for his authorship on the four books of the imitation of Christ. His bones and his tomb are left in Zwolle (I’ve never been there …); there is some kind of inofficial veneration for Thomas - as it is for many saintlike people all over the world.

I think the Catholic Encyclopedia is really very clear about that point and about the question in how far his authorship can be* proved*.

This is the big problem of any historian who deals with these earlier centuries. You can’t fix historical data so precisely as you could do it – for example – for the last three centuries. Earlier times had another understanding of authorship; books had to be copied manually. People did not sign their works with their names as they do today.

Some years ago one guy wrote a pseudo-scientific bestseller where he claimed that a whole century in European history (and, within this century, the emperor Charles the Great) was pure invention. So – there is always room for speculations of any kind …
 
We all know and accept that a person can spend his entire life denying God, rebelling against God, questioning God, etc., then accept His love in the last moments of life. We agree that this person, after spending considerable time in purgatory, will go to Heaven to live with God.

In the same way, a person can spend his entire life living exclusively for God, bringing others to Him, sharing His love with all people, then decide in the last minutes of life that it was all wasted effort. This person who denies God at the end will spend eternity without Him.

Most of the Saints who died terrible deaths did so in front of witnesses. Those witnesses spread the word of the undying faith of the Saints. That is part of what made them Saints.

A person like Thomas a Kempis actually died without witnesses. People were around when he got sick and fell into a coma (or whatever caused them to decide he was dead enough to bury). They were not around when he actually died. As a result, we do not know if he accepted his death as a welcome from his heavenly Father or if he went to the other extreme and died cursing the God who would sentence him to such a cruel death.

This uncertainty on the part of the Church is enough to keep him from being canonized. Remember that the canonization is a declaration that a person is definitely in heaven. If Thomas denied his faith at the very end of his life, he would not go to heaven. That is a pretty big if.
 
Loren_1of6 said:
We all know and accept that a person can spend his entire life denying God, rebelling against God, questioning God, etc., then accept His love in the last moments of life. We agree that this person, after spending considerable time in purgatory, will go to Heaven to live with God.

In the same way, a person can spend his entire life living exclusively for God, bringing others to Him, sharing His love with all people, then decide in the last minutes of life that it was all wasted effort. This person who denies God at the end will spend eternity without Him.

Most of the Saints who died terrible deaths did so in front of witnesses. Those witnesses spread the word of the undying faith of the Saints. That is part of what made them Saints.

A person like Thomas a Kempis actually died without witnesses. People were around when he got sick and fell into a coma (or whatever caused them to decide he was dead enough to bury). They were not around when he actually died. As a result, we do not know if he accepted his death as a welcome from his heavenly Father or if he went to the other extreme and died cursing the God who would sentence him to such a cruel death.

This uncertainty on the part of the Church is enough to keep him from being canonized. Remember that the canonization is a declaration that a person is definitely in heaven. If Thomas denied his faith at the very end of his life, he would not go to heaven. That is a pretty big if.
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But isn’t sainthood shown by miracles as well? God wouldn’t work miracles through the intercession of one who was in hell, now would he? And not all the saints died in front of witnesses, and even if they did it’s not irrefutable evidence of the state of their soul either.

Were miracles required for beatification in those days? Are there any having been recorded as occuring through his intercession? :confused:
 
TOME said:
…almost automatically grounds to end the canonization process due to the possibility of despair.
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But that’s not despair. Despair, when referring to one of the blasphemies against the Holy Spirit, means that one believes that God cannot forgive one (i hate the neuter pronoun…). Since you believe that God cannot forgive you, you do not seek forgiveness.
LilyM said:
It seems it’s saintly, or at least more saintly, to be calmly accepting in the face of death than otherwise.
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So, if my house is burning down, I can be canonized if i stay inside, but not if i run out and then later on die of 3rd degree burns?
Loren_1of6 said:
As a result, we do not know if he accepted his death as a welcome from his heavenly Father or if he went to the other extreme and died cursing God.

This uncertainty on the part of the Church is enough to keep him from being canonized. Remember that the canonization is a declaration that a person is definitely in heaven. If Thomas denied his faith at the very end of his life, he would not go to heaven. That is a pretty big if.
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The certainty required to declare a person a saint can only come as divine revelation, thus it is irrelevant whether we know the intentions of his heart in the several hours he spent slowly running out of oxygen.
There are saints who had a deep inner love of God that no one knew about, and yet, we know they are saints.

I think the most likely reason for his not-yet canonization is that no one has carried his cause…applications do not simply terminate, that would be tantamount to saying a person is in hell. They simply get put to the side while waiting for a miracle.
 
When I first heard that canonization for Thomas ended when they exhumed his body, and found that he had been buried alive and saw his finger nail marks on the cover of the coffin, they stopped the canonization process because they feared he committed the sin of despair, I thought to myself, WOW! I thought getting through Marine Corps boot camp as tough, but getting canonized is a lot tougher! 😉

Jim
 
I have been gone for a while, is there any update on Thomas à Kempis becoming a Saint or any movement for his cause? If so, could you please provide the link here.
 
The fact that Thomas a’ Kempis was buried in a reliquary, and recently had his “relics” solemnly translated:

youtube. com/watch? v=5yr8S_6i4XU

youtube. com/watch? v=SSymTsq08rI

youtube. com/watch? v=e09ptTZ- dzQ&feature=related

youtube. com/watch? v=PFGyf4YKiRg

are powerful testimonials to an “immemorial cult”, which is considered as valid basis for the recognition of cult (which entails equivalent beatification).
 
This is most disconcerting! I always thought that he was a saint, and in fact was planning to name our next son after him! :eek: I suppose now I’ll have to choose another Thomas.
 
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