Why Isn't Everyone Catholic?

[Teflon93]

You are one to talk. Mr. Pott, meet Mr. Kettle

Here’s your Church document on the theological virtues.

Have we noticed yet how much evidence Catholics provide, how little Protestants?

And yet I have faith and sincerely hope that you will be so charitable as to begin supporting your arguments with evidence!

 

[Teflon93]

And here is the Catechism—O blessed compendium!— on the Trinity:

III. THE HOLY TRINITY IN THE TEACHING OF THE FAITH

The formation of the Trinitarian dogma

249 From the beginning, the revealed truth of the Holy Trinity has been at the very root of the Church’s living faith, principally by means of Baptism. It finds its expression in the rule of baptismal faith, formulated in the preaching, catechesis and prayer of the Church. Such formulations are already found in the apostolic writings, such as this salutation taken up in the Eucharistic liturgy: "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all."81

250 During the first centuries the Church sought to clarify her Trinitarian faith, both to deepen her own understanding of the faith and to defend it against the errors that were deforming it. This clarification was the work of the early councils, aided by the theological work of the Church Fathers and sustained by the Christian people’s sense of the faith.

251 In order to articulate the dogma of the Trinity, the Church had to develop her own terminology with the help of certain notions of philosophical origin: “substance”, “person” or “hypostasis”, “relation” and so on. In doing this, she did not submit the faith to human wisdom, but gave a new and unprecedented meaning to these terms, which from then on would be used to signify an ineffable mystery, “infinitely beyond all that we can humanly understand”.82

252 The Church uses (I) the term “substance” (rendered also at times by “essence” or “nature”) to designate the divine being in its unity, (II) the term “person” or “hypostasis” to designate the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the real distinction among them, and (III) the term “relation” to designate the fact that their distinction lies in the relationship of each to the others.

The dogma of the Holy Trinity

253 The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the “consubstantial Trinity”.83 The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: "The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God."84 In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), "Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature."85

254 The divine persons are really distinct from one another. "God is one but not solitary."86 “Father”, “Son”, “Holy Spirit” are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: "He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son."87 They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: "It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds."88 The divine Unity is Triune.

255 The divine persons are relative to one another. Because it does not divide the divine unity, the real distinction of the persons from one another resides solely in the relationships which relate them to one another: "In the relational names of the persons the Father is related to the Son, the Son to the Father, and the Holy Spirit to both. While they are called three persons in view of their relations, we believe in one nature or substance."89 Indeed "everything (in them) is one where there is no opposition of relationship."90 "Because of that unity the Father is wholly in the Son and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Son is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Son."91

256 St. Gregory of Nazianzus, also called “the Theologian”, entrusts this summary of Trinitarian faith to the catechumens of Constantinople:

Above all guard for me this great deposit of faith for which I live and fight, which I want to take with me as a companion, and which makes me bear all evils and despise all pleasures: I mean the profession of faith in the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. I entrust it to you today. By it I am soon going to plunge you into water and raise you up from it. I give it to you as the companion and patron of your whole life. I give you but one divinity and power, existing one in three, and containing the three in a distinct way. Divinity without disparity of substance or nature, without superior degree that raises up or inferior degree that casts down. . . the infinite co-naturality of three infinites. Each person considered in himself is entirely God. . . the three considered together. . . I have not even begun to think of unity when the Trinity bathes me in its splendor. I have not even begun to think of the Trinity when unity grasps me. . .92

 

[wisdomseeker]

Can you explain how these quotes catalog what Paul was talking about under the general term “tradition”? Silly me, I expected something like…a church document stating that Paul taught the bodily assumption of Mary to the church in Thessolonia and that is what is meant by “tradition” in 2 Thess 2:15.

you are silly. Oral Tradition means not written.

12 Therefore I intend always to remind you of these things, though you know them and are established in the truth that you have. 13 I think it right, as long as I am in this body, to arouse you by way of reminder, 14 since I know that the putting off of my body will be soon, as our Lord Jesus Christ showed me. 15 And I will see to it that after my departure you may be able at any time to recall these things.

 

[SemperReformada]

Here’s your Church document on the theological virtues.

Have we noticed yet how much evidence Catholics provide, how little Protestants?

And yet I have faith and sincerely hope that you will be so charitable as to begin supporting your arguments with evidence!

You have provided quite a bit about the Trinity, which I didn’t ask you anything about, but I have noticed that you have yet to comply with my request that you show some evidence that your church knows exactly what “traditions” are mentioned in 2Thess2:15 and I think I asked my question first. Maybe I am wrong but I’m pretty sure I asked first.

 

[SemperReformada]

you are silly. Oral Tradition means not written.

12 Therefore I intend always to remind you of these things, though you know them and are established in the truth that you have. 13 I think it right, as long as I am in this body, to arouse you by way of reminder, 14 since I know that the putting off of my body will be soon, as our Lord Jesus Christ showed me. 15 And I will see to it that after my departure you may be able at any time to recall these things.

Thank you.

But, I would think that since so many Catholics try to use 2Thess2:15 as a proof text for “apostoic tradition” that the Catholic church would have some knowledge of what those traditions are.

 

[Teflon93]

While we’re at it, let’s consider another example of tradition which is not explicit in Scripture and which many of our Protestant brethren also accept: the sacred liturgy.

Justin Martyr’s 1st apology, 2nd century:

Chapter 65. Administration of the sacraments

But we, after we have thus washed him who has been convinced and has assented to our teaching, bring him to the place where those who are called brethren are assembled, in order that we may offer hearty prayers in common for ourselves and for the baptized [illuminated] person, and for all others in every place, that we may be counted worthy, now that we have learned the truth, by our works also to be found good citizens and keepers of the commandments, so that we may be saved with an everlasting salvation. Having ended the prayers, we salute one another with a kiss. There is then brought to the president of the brethren bread and a cup of wine mixed with water; and he taking them, gives praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and offers thanks at considerable length for our being counted worthy to receive these things at His hands. And when he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all the people present express their assent by saying Amen. This word Amen answers in the Hebrew language to γένοιτο [so be it]. And when the president has given thanks, and all the people have expressed their assent, those who are called by us deacons give to each of those present to partake of the bread and wine mixed with water over which the thanksgiving was pronounced, and to those who are absent they carry away a portion.

Chapter 66. Of the Eucharist
And this food is called among us Εὐχαριστία [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, This do in remembrance of Me, Luke 22:19 this is My body; and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, This is My blood; and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn.

Chapter 67. Weekly worship of the Christians
And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.

Again, just like the dogma of the Trinity, just like the Nicene Creed, we have a tradition of the Catholic Church which Protestants accept largely without thinking about it—at least in the mainline Protestant denominations.

 

[wisdomseeker]

You have provided quite a bit about the Trinity, which I didn’t ask you anything about, but I have noticed that you have yet to comply with my request that you show some evidence that your church knows exactly what “traditions” are mentioned in 2Thess2:15 and I think I asked my question first. Maybe I am wrong but I’m pretty sure I asked first.

why dont you tell us if your church knows anything about the Oral Traditon spoke of by St Paul.
i am waiting for your answer.

12 Therefore I intend always to remind you of these things, though you know them and are established in the truth that you have. 13 I think it right, as long as I am in this body, to arouse you by way of reminder, 14 since I know that the putting off of my body will be soon, as our Lord Jesus Christ showed me. 15 And I will see to it that after my departure you may be able at any time to recall these things.

 

[Teflon93]

You have provided quite a bit about the Trinity, which I didn’t ask you anything about, but I have noticed that you have yet to comply with my request that you show some evidence that your church knows exactly what “traditions” are mentioned in 2Thess2:15 and I think I asked my question first. Maybe I am wrong but I’m pretty sure I asked first.

You are wrong. I’ve been asking you about the Trinity since well before you brought up 2 Thess 2:15.

You haven’t responded, either. Are you a Trinitarian? Do you believe that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one in being?

 

[wisdomseeker]

Thank you.

But, I would think that since so many Catholics try to use 2Thess2:15 as a proof text for “apostoic tradition” that the Catholic church would have some knowledge of what those traditions are.

dont worry about them. they are Oral meaning if you are outside of that Tradition you cannot possible see it or know it.

12 Therefore I intend always to remind you of these things, though you know them and are established in the truth that you have. 13 I think it right, as long as I am in this body, to arouse you by way of reminder, 14 since I know that the putting off of my body will be soon, as our Lord Jesus Christ showed me. 15 And I will see to it that after my departure you may be able at any time to recall these things.

 

[Teflon93]

So I have to ask, pursuant to my earlier argument:

On what basis do Protestants accept from the Catholic Church:

a) The Holy Bible;

b) The Nicene Creed;

c) The dogma of the Trinity;

d) The liturgy (high Protestants only)

and then reject other elements of Church tradition?

 

[SemperReformada]

why dont you tell us if your church knows anything about the Oral Traditon spoke of by St Paul.
i am waiting for your answer.

12 Therefore I intend always to remind you of these things, though you know them and are established in the truth that you have. 13 I think it right, as long as I am in this body, to arouse you by way of reminder, 14 since I know that the putting off of my body will be soon, as our Lord Jesus Christ showed me. 15 And I will see to it that after my departure you may be able at any time to recall these things.

I am in the same boat as you, I don’t know exactly what Paul meant by tradition in that verse.

 

[Teflon93]

Assuming for the moment that there is SOME reason for Protestants to pick and choose what they like from Church tradition, even though they cannot all agree on what is valid and invalid, let us move to the related question:

If Christ promised to found his Church on rock and that the gates of hell would not prevail against her, how precisely is it that the previously reliable Church suddenly became unreliable at some point in her history?

After all, there was no such thing as Protestantism before 1520. For some time thereafter, usually reckoned to about the end of the Thirty Years War in 1648, there was considerable chaos in Christendom wrought by the Reformation.

How does one reconcile Christ’s promise with 1,500 years of smooth sailing until Christ jumped ship to whatever favored Protestant vessel sometime between 1520 and 1648 (or later, if you’re of some other stripe)?

 

[Teflon93]

The Catechism on Tradition:

ARTICLE 2
THE TRANSMISSION OF DIVINE REVELATION

74 God “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth”:29 that is, of Christ Jesus.30 Christ must be proclaimed to all nations and individuals, so that this revelation may reach to the ends of the earth:

God graciously arranged that the things he had once revealed for the salvation of all peoples should remain in their entirety, throughout the ages, and be transmitted to all generations.31

I. THE APOSTOLIC TRADITION

75 "Christ the Lord, in whom the entire Revelation of the most high God is summed up, commanded the apostles to preach the Gospel, which had been promised beforehand by the prophets, and which he fulfilled in his own person and promulgated with his own lips. In preaching the Gospel, they were to communicate the gifts of God to all men. This Gospel was to be the source of all saving truth and moral discipline."32

In the apostolic preaching. . .

76 In keeping with the Lord’s command, the Gospel was handed on in two ways:

• orally “by the apostles who handed on, by the spoken word of their preaching, by the example they gave, by the institutions they established, what they themselves had received - whether from the lips of Christ, from his way of life and his works, or whether they had learned it at the prompting of the Holy Spirit”;33
• in writing “by those apostles and other men associated with the apostles who, under the inspiration of the same Holy Spirit, committed the message of salvation to writing”.34

. . . continued in apostolic succession

77 "In order that the full and living Gospel might always be preserved in the Church the apostles left bishops as their successors. They gave them their own position of teaching authority."35 Indeed, "the apostolic preaching, which is expressed in a special way in the inspired books, was to be preserved in a continuous line of succession until the end of time."36

78 This living transmission, accomplished in the Holy Spirit, is called Tradition, since it is distinct from Sacred Scripture, though closely connected to it. Through Tradition, "the Church, in her doctrine, life and worship, perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes."37 "The sayings of the holy Fathers are a witness to the life-giving presence of this Tradition, showing how its riches are poured out in the practice and life of the Church, in her belief and her prayer."38

79 The Father’s self-communication made through his Word in the Holy Spirit, remains present and active in the Church: "God, who spoke in the past, continues to converse with the Spouse of his beloved Son. And the Holy Spirit, through whom the living voice of the Gospel rings out in the Church - and through her in the world - leads believers to the full truth, and makes the Word of Christ dwell in them in all its richness."39

II. THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN TRADITION AND SACRED SCRIPTURE

One common source. . .

80 "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal."40 Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own “always, to the close of the age”.41

. . . two distinct modes of transmission

81 "Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit."42

"And [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound and spread it abroad by their preaching."43

82 As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, "does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence."44

Apostolic Tradition and ecclesial traditions

83 The Tradition here in question comes from the apostles and hands on what they received from Jesus’ teaching and example and what they learned from the Holy Spirit. The first generation of Christians did not yet have a written New Testament, and the New Testament itself demonstrates the process of living Tradition.

Tradition is to be distinguished from the various theological, disciplinary, liturgical or devotional traditions, born in the local churches over time. These are the particular forms, adapted to different places and times, in which the great Tradition is expressed. In the light of Tradition, these traditions can be retained, modified or even abandoned under the guidance of the Church’s Magisterium.

 

[Teflon93]

III. THE INTERPRETATION OF THE HERITAGE OF FAITH

The heritage of faith entrusted to the whole of the Church

84 The apostles entrusted the “Sacred deposit” of the faith (the depositum fidei),45 contained in Sacred Scripture and Tradition, to the whole of the Church. "By adhering to [this heritage] the entire holy people, united to its pastors, remains always faithful to the teaching of the apostles, to the brotherhood, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. So, in maintaining, practicing and professing the faith that has been handed on, there should be a remarkable harmony between the bishops and the faithful."46

The Magisterium of the Church

85 "The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ."47 This means that the task of interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome.

86 "Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it. At the divine command and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication and expounds it faithfully. All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith."48

87 Mindful of Christ’s words to his apostles: “He who hears you, hears me”,49 the faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their pastors give them in different forms.

The dogmas of the faith

88 The Church’s Magisterium exercises the authority it holds from Christ to the fullest extent when it defines dogmas, that is, when it proposes, in a form obliging the Christian people to an irrevocable adherence of faith, truths contained in divine Revelation or also when it proposes, in a definitive way, truths having a necessary connection with these.

89 There is an organic connection between our spiritual life and the dogmas. Dogmas are lights along the path of faith; they illuminate it and make it secure. Conversely, if our life is upright, our intellect and heart will be open to welcome the light shed by the dogmas of faith.50

90 The mutual connections between dogmas, and their coherence, can be found in the whole of the Revelation of the mystery of Christ.51 "In Catholic doctrine there exists an order or hierarchy of truths, since they vary in their relation to the foundation of the Christian faith."52

The supernatural sense of faith

91 All the faithful share in understanding and handing on revealed truth. They have received the anointing of the Holy Spirit, who instructs them53 and guides them into all truth.54

92 "The whole body of the faithful. . . cannot err in matters of belief. This characteristic is shown in the supernatural appreciation of faith (sensus fidei) on the part of the whole people, when, from the bishops to the last of the faithful, they manifest a universal consent in matters of faith and morals."55

93 "By this appreciation of the faith, aroused and sustained by the Spirit of truth, the People of God, guided by the sacred teaching authority (Magisterium),. . . receives. . . the faith, once for all delivered to the saints. . . The People unfailingly adheres to this faith, penetrates it more deeply with right judgment, and applies it more fully in daily life."56

Growth in understanding the faith

94 Thanks to the assistance of the Holy Spirit, the understanding of both the realities and the words of the heritage of faith is able to grow in the life of the Church:

• “through the contemplation and study of believers who ponder these things in their hearts”;57 it is in particular “theological research [which] deepens knowledge of revealed truth”.58
• “from the intimate sense of spiritual realities which [believers] experience”,59 the sacred Scriptures "grow with the one who reads them."60
• “from the preaching of those who have received, along with their right of succession in the episcopate, the sure charism of truth”.61

95 "It is clear therefore that, in the supremely wise arrangement of God, sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture and the Magisterium of the Church are so connected and associated that one of them cannot stand without the others. Working together, each in its own way, under the action of the one Holy Spirit, they all contribute effectively to the salvation of souls."62

 

[Teflon93]

And the endnotes, referencing Church documents:

IN BRIEF

96 What Christ entrusted to the apostles, they in turn handed on by their preaching and writing, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, to all generations, until Christ returns in glory.

97 “Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture make up a single sacred deposit of the Word of God” (DV 10) in which, as in a mirror, the pilgrim Church contemplates God, the source of all her riches.

98 “The Church, in her doctrine, life and worship, perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes” (DV 8 § 1).

99 Thanks to its supernatural sense of faith, the People of God as a whole never ceases to welcome, to penetrate more deeply and to live more fully from the gift of divine Revelation.

100 The task of interpreting the Word of God authentically has been entrusted solely to the Magisterium of the Church, that is, to the Pope and to the bishops in communion with him.

29 1 Tim 2:4.
30 cf. Jn 14:6.
31 DV 7; cf. 2 Cor 1:20; 3:16-4:6.
32 DV 7; cf. Mt 28:19-20; Mk 16:15.
33 DV 7.
34 DV 7.
35 DV 7 § 2; St. Irenaeus, Adv. haeres. 3,3,1G 7/1,848; Harvey,2,9.
36 DV 8 § 1.
37 DV 8 § 1.
38 DV 8 § 3.
39 DV 8 § 3; cf. Col 3:16.
40 DV 9.
41 Mt 28:20.
42 DV 9.
43 DV 9.
44 DV 9.
45 DV 10 § 1; cf. 1 Tim 6:20; 2 Tim 1:12-14 (Vulg.).
46 DV 10 § 1; cf. Acts 2:42 (Greek); Pius XII, apostolic constitution, Munificentissimus Deus, 1 November 1950:AAS 42 (1950), 756, taken along with the words of St. Cyprian, Epist. 66, 8:CSEL 3/2,733: “The Church is the people united to its Priests, the flock adhering to its Shepherd.”
47 DV 10 § 2.
48 DV 10 para 2.
49 Lk 10:16; cf. LG 20.
50 Cf. Jn 8:31-32.
51 Cf. Vatican Council IS 3016:nexus mysteriorum; LG 25.
52 UR II.
53 Cf. 1 Jn 2:20,27.
54 Cf. Jn 16:13.
55 LG 12; cf. St. Augustine, De praed. sanct. 14,27L 44,980.
56 LG 12; cf. Jude 3.
57 DV 8 § 2; cf. Lk 2:19,51.
58 GS 62 § 7; cf. GS 44 § 2; DV 23; 24; UR 4.
59 DV 8 § 2.
60 DV 8 § 2.
61 St. Gregory the Great, Hom. in Ez. 1,7,8L 76,843D.
62 DV 10 § 3.

 

[Teflon93]

Since I have been doing quite a bit of heavy lifting and do not want to submerge evidentiary posts until SemperReformada et al have a chance to absorb them, I’ll hold off here for the night.

I’ll look for responses tomorrow.

 

[SemperReformada]

Assuming for the moment that there is SOME reason for Protestants to pick and choose what they like from Church tradition, even though they cannot all agree on what is valid and invalid, let us move to the related question:

If Christ promised to found his Church on rock and that the gates of hell would not prevail against her, how precisely is it that the previously reliable Church suddenly became unreliable at some point in her history?

Peter’s confession is the rock but even if it was Peter, it’s a tremendous leap to get to the modern day papacy. Peterine primacy is not synonymous with the modern version of the papcy.

After all, there was no such thing as Protestantism before 1520. For some time thereafter, usually reckoned to about the end of the Thirty Years War in 1648, there was considerable chaos in Christendom wrought by the Reformation.

How does one reconcile Christ’s promise with **1,500 years of smooth sailing **until Christ jumped ship to whatever favored Protestant vessel sometime between 1520 and 1648 (or later, if you’re of some other stripe)?

C’mon, you don’t really believe it was 1500 years of smooth sailing do you? Go back to the NT and look what happened in the first few decades after the resurrection…ie. one needn’t look 1500 years after the resurrection to see stormy waters. The schism with the Orthodox…interesting that you overlook so much history. I guess to be deep in history is to cease being Catholic.

 

[SemperReformada]

Since I have been doing quite a bit of heavy lifting and do not want to submerge evidentiary posts until SemperReformada et al have a chance to absorb them, I’ll hold off here for the night.

I’ll look for responses tomorrow.

The cutting and pasting must be exhausting.

 

[Cinette]

This is a new thread to continue a discusison that went off-topic in another thread.

The question I want to pose here is twofold:

1. Why isn’t everyone Catholic? Catholic dogma, after, is true, isn’t it?
2. Why are Catholics such pathetic evangelists? You’d think someone in posession of the truth would be at an advantage.

Would it not be correct to say that the Church has increased qualitatively - in other words, there are more committed and well catechised Catholics today. Are Catholics more and more orthodox and therefore uncompromising? There will always be the Cafetaria Catholics on the margins but more and more people are aware of the importance of commitment to the Faith.

 

[benedictus2]

Peter’s confession is the rock but even if it was Peter, it’s a tremendous leap to get to the modern day papacy. Peterine primacy is not synonymous with the modern version of the papcy.

Peter’s confession is NOT THE ROCK. Peter is, that is why his name was changed from Simon to Peter.

In Aamaic it went like this “You are Kepha and upon this kepha I will build my Church” so let us be clear about that.

And no it is not a a tremendous leap to get to the modern day Papacy from that great moment in Ceasaria Philipi. What you need is to study history. It is only your ignorance of history that makes you mouth this lie.

Here is a little bit of reading for you to dispel that cloud of ignorance.

davidmacd.com/catholic/pope.htm