Why isn't the Church a democratic institution

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Contarini said:
Why does being an American mean that you must make absolutist claims for your particular style of government? This is one of the reasons I’m reluctant to get American citizenship, even though I’ve lived here most of my life. Being an American is way too much like a religion.
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Not to take this off-topic, but shouldn’t you be a citizen of the country in which you reside? And, by being a citizen, you can help shape the government with your CATHOLIC beliefs via the voting process.
 
First of all, a democratic government is the best kind of government, but the church as a democracy would be disastrous! Just imagine what kind of things would be put to vote: contraception, sunday obligation, and anything else that makes being a catholic hard.
 
Sir_Knight said:
Not to take this off-topic, but shouldn’t you be a citizen of the country in which you reside? And, by being a citizen, you can help shape the government with your CATHOLIC beliefs via the voting process.
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I hate to debate this point with you Sir Knight, but you can’t “vote” in Catholic values when your country is only a few percent Catholic (25% of the adults in America profess the Faith, maybe only a few percentage of those are orthodox Catholics).

The only way to make America more Catholic is through militant evangelism. We must continue to strive to convert people’s hearts and minds to the Faith, to never give up the Doctrines of Our Faith, to remain true and strong to the Catholic Faith, to fight heresies wherever and whatever they may be!
 
johnlal said:
I apologize for riling people up. I really did come here for answers, not to upset people. I won’t post anything further on the subject, and will look for answers elsewhere.😊
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How can you say that your question hasn’t been answered?
People have given you literally dozens of answers. That is why I suspected you as a mere antagonist.
Instead of listening to the answers provided, you have argued the same point over and over.
I am an American and I love my country. BUT - America is NOT heaven and our form of government is NOT superior to what God has willed for his Kingdom.
Democracy is better for us humans - because we cannot handle a monarchy because of our flawed human nature.
God CAN.
👍
 
The ultimate form of government would be a benevolent monarchy if you could guarantee the ultimate benevolence and wisdom of the king, impossible for a concupiscent human. Thus it’s better for humans to have a checks-and-balances republic accountable to the citizenry.
Meanwhile, the Church has the greatest possible benevolent King and we are accountable to Him rather than the other way around.
 
elvisman said:
How can you say that your question hasn’t been answered?
People have given you literally dozens of answers.

Yes, people have given dozens of unhelpful answers that are not answers to the question he asked.

The original question was a bit vague and poorly worded. BUT-- The OP clarified that he was not talking about doctrine being democratic but rather the **method **of selecting Bishops.

There is nothing wrong with him asking this question because the method of selecting bishops is **NOT **a matter of doctrine.

It is a discipline under Canon Law. It can change, and it has changed from the early church to the present. Bishops were, in fact, selected by popular vote of the people in their diocese at one time. They have also been appointed by secular rulers at one time. Now, they are appointed by the Pope.

I think that the current method is the best method. But, he is free to ask about the methods and why we do it the way we do it. It’s a legitimate question, but everyone is too busy shouting “heresy” to listen to wha this actual question is.
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Sir_Knight said:
Not to take this off-topic, but shouldn’t you be a citizen of the country in which you reside? And, by being a citizen, you can help shape the government with your CATHOLIC beliefs via the voting process.
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If you look closely at Edwin’s post you’ll notice that he is not a Catholic. Moreover, if you believe in the freedom that is inherent in American democracy then you’ll leave that decision up to him.
 
Hmmmm…Faith in man vs faith in divinity???

I’ll take the latter every time.

I must be related to 1ke - agree with everything and very well said. thanks
 
KofC660 said:
I hate to debate this point with you Sir Knight, but you can’t “vote” in Catholic values when your country is only a few percent Catholic (25% of the adults in America profess the Faith, maybe only a few percentage of those are orthodox Catholics).
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Sure you can “vote” in Catholic values]. Just look at the 2004 presidential election. More Catholic values were voted in than non-Catholic values.
 
Sir_Knight said:
Sure you can “vote” in Catholic values]. Just look at the 2004 presidential election. More Catholic values were voted in than non-Catholic values.
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No, they weren’t.

There were absolutely ZERO Catholic values voted in.
 
Yes there were.
  • Bush – Anti-abortion, anti-stem cell research, etc.
  • Kerry – Pro-abortion, pro-stem cell research, etc.
    If all of the Catholics that voted for Bush, would have voted for Kerry, Kerry would be president right now. Our diocese newspaper had a chart on what happened and what could have happened depending on the Catholic vote.
 
Sir_Knight said:
Yes there were.
  • Bush – Anti-abortion, anti-stem cell research, etc.
  • Kerry – Pro-abortion, pro-stem cell research, etc.
    If all of the Catholics that voted for Bush, would have voted for Kerry, Kerry would be president right now. Our diocese newspaper had a chart on what happened and what could have happened depending on the Catholic vote.
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Those aren’t necessarily “Catholic values”. Sure, they are values that the Catholic Church holds, but aren’t what defines Catholicism.

A Mohammedan is against abortion, does that mean they hold “Catholic values”? Of course not, they hold their own values, some of which happen to coincide with Catholic values.

Catholicism values are, first and foremost, the Dogmas set forth by the Church: the Immaculate Conception, the Incarnation, the Crucifixion, the Resurrection, the Ascension, the Coming of the Holy Spirit, the Assumption, the Authority of the Bishops, Sacred Tradition, and, finally, Sacred Scripture. Built upon those Dogmas is the theology of the Church. I can guarantee you that when GW Bush answered during the 2000 debates that Jesus was his most admired philosopher, THAT is not a “Catholic value”. GW Bush subscribes to the heresies laid out by popes Leo XIII and Pius IX, that is “Americanism”. Sure, voting for GW Bush is fine, as long as you realize you’re not voting for someone with specific “Catholic values”, but for someone who is AGAINST “Catholic values”, but also AGAINST abortion.
 
KofC660 said:
Those aren’t necessarily “Catholic values”. Sure, they are values that the Catholic Church holds, but aren’t what defines Catholicism.

A Mohammedan is against abortion, does that mean they hold “Catholic values”? Of course not, they hold their own values, some of which happen to coincide with Catholic values.

Catholicism values are, first and foremost, the Dogmas set forth by the Church: the Immaculate Conception, the Incarnation, the Crucifixion, the Resurrection, the Ascension, the Coming of the Holy Spirit, the Assumption, the Authority of the Bishops, Sacred Tradition, and, finally, Sacred Scripture. Built upon those Dogmas is the theology of the Church. I can guarantee you that when GW Bush answered during the 2000 debates that Jesus was his most admired philosopher, THAT is not a “Catholic value”. GW Bush subscribes to the heresies laid out by popes Leo XIII and Pius IX, that is “Americanism”. Sure, voting for GW Bush is fine, as long as you realize you’re not voting for someone with specific “Catholic values”, but for someone who is AGAINST “Catholic values”, but also AGAINST abortion.
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Say What? Catholic values are not catholic values and two Popes condemned Americanism??? And the point is?
 
KofC660 said:
Those aren’t necessarily “Catholic values”. Sure, they are values that the Catholic Church holds, but aren’t what defines Catholicism.

A Mohammedan is against abortion, does that mean they hold “Catholic values”? Of course not, they hold their own values, some of which happen to coincide with Catholic values.
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If those values are held by the church, then they ARE Catholic values. Or, are you saying that the Church holds non-Catholic values?
KofC660 said:
Sure, voting for GW Bush is fine, as long as you realize you’re not voting for someone with specific “Catholic values”, but for someone who is AGAINST “Catholic values”, but also AGAINST abortion.
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If he was against Catholic values, the he would be FOR abortion.
 
johnlal said:
If American history has taught us anything, it is that the preferable form of government is a democracy. Monarchy is less preferable because of the potential for corruption and abuse, and the fallacy of the inequality between the monarch and the subjects.
Then why is our church not a democracy? Wouldn’t it be preferable for the Church to be administered by the best form of government?
After all, the Holy Spirit would ensure that the Church thrives and endures regardless of its form of governance, would it not? Would the Holy Spirit cease to assist our Holy Father and our Bishops merely because they were elected rather than appointed? Isn’t history replete of examples of excesses and abuses that parallel the excesses and abuses of monarchies?
Everything in our history as Americans tells us that democracy is the only way to go.
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Umm, America is a republic, not a democracy. We elect representatives who vote on our behalf.

The most perfect form of government is a benevolent dictatorship, otherwise known as a celestial monarchy (the Kingdom of God).

There is an old Russian aphorism to the effect that the best form of government is a good tsar, but since bad tsars are so common, we’d be better off with no tsar.

If Catholics wanted to vote on everything we’d be Unitarians.
 
Sir_Knight said:
If he was against Catholic values, the he would be FOR abortion.
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Being against abortion is not a barometer of “Catholic values”.

As stated, Mohammedans are against abortion as well. An atheist can be against abortion. Many Protestants are against abortion.

“Catholic values” are that the Church be the only guide in moral issues. Abortion is wrong not because the Koran, the government, or the Bible says so, but because the CATHOLIC CHURCH says so! Gay “marriage” is wrong because the Catholic Church says it’s wrong! You may agree with why the Catholic Church is against these things, but to concur is not a “Catholic value”. The Catholic value is to strive to make the world a better place through Jesus and His Church, not rational or naturalist philosophies.

If GW Bush held a SINGLE “Catholic value”, he would be a Catholic.

He doesn’t, so he’s not.
 
You’re saying that being anti-abortion is not a Catholic value? I disagree!
 
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