Why it doesn't matter what I believe

[ZenFred]

Over the several years I’ve been off and on this forum, I’ve had shifting and very different viewpoints with plenty of ping ponging back and forth between Christianity, Buddhism and Judaism. I have always found that this forum has been respectful, well versed in scripture, and articulate. I have also been impressed and greatful for the many people who have showed genuine concern for me as a person and as a seeker, not just a theologian opponent. Thank you very much!

In that spirit, I thought I’d share how as my spiritual practice has deepened and taken several sharp turns that I’ve come to realize first of all it’s not about me (it’s about God) and it’s even less about what I happen to think about God.

On the simplest, most obvious but overlooked level, God isn’t changed by my beliefs. If God exists as a trinity He doesn’t stop being so because I made a counter argument. Jesus doesn’t stop being the incarnate God because I stop believing. It’s this way for all my beliefs about God.

I’m also firmly convinced that God alone is the source of salvation. We are not saved by our beliefs nor our religious affiliation nor gaining the approval of any human authority (religious or otherwise). If Jesus Christ is God and we are saved by Christ, then we are still saved by God. I know God thru prayer and have deep faith in his redeeming me at the time of my death. Perhaps this is because I have faith, perhaps because I was baptised as an infant and had a born again expierence later in my teens, perhaps because I’ve never renouced Christ. Or perhaps it is solely because I am a child of God. I don’t know, but I have the assurance of salvation thru God’s mercy and love.

God gives me zero authority to judge the beliefs and paths of others. I am supposed to be discerning yes but it’s not my salvation to give, it’s Gods. So let’s say you are saved by God and are His beloved child on whom He shows favor. My disagreeing with you counts for nothing.

Finnaly, God leads me thru prayer. He calls me first to Him and then to follow His commandments. He doesn’t give me a theology syllable.

I indulge myself too much in theological speculation. All I should do is work a tentative rough framework that makes sense of what I encounter in prayer. So far, I’m continuing to fall flat in that regard, but I do feel I’m getting closer with each attempt.

-Fred

 

[adf417]

Over the several years I’ve been off and on this forum, I’ve had shifting and very different viewpoints with plenty of ping ponging back and forth between Christianity, Buddhism and Judaism. I have always found that this forum has been respectful, well versed in scripture, and articulate. I have also been impressed and greatful for the many people who have showed genuine concern for me as a person and as a seeker, not just a theologian opponent. Thank you very much!

In that spirit, I thought I’d share how as my spiritual practice has deepened and taken several sharp turns that I’ve come to realize first of all it’s not about me (it’s about God) and it’s even less about what I happen to think about God.

On the simplest, most obvious but overlooked level, God isn’t changed by my beliefs. If God exists as a trinity He doesn’t stop being so because I made a counter argument. Jesus doesn’t stop being the incarnate God because I stop believing. It’s this way for all my beliefs about God.

I’m also firmly convinced that God alone is the source of salvation. We are not saved by our beliefs nor our religious affiliation nor gaining the approval of any human authority (religious or otherwise). If Jesus Christ is God and we are saved by Christ, then we are still saved by God. I know God thru prayer and have deep faith in his redeeming me at the time of my death. Perhaps this is because I have faith, perhaps because I was baptised as an infant and had a born again expierence later in my teens, perhaps because I’ve never renouced Christ. Or perhaps it is solely because I am a child of God. I don’t know, but I have the assurance of salvation thru God’s mercy and love.

God gives me zero authority to judge the beliefs and paths of others. I am supposed to be discerning yes but it’s not my salvation to give, it’s Gods. So let’s say you are saved by God and are His beloved child on whom He shows favor. My disagreeing with you counts for nothing.

Finnaly, God leads me thru prayer. He calls me first to Him and then to follow His commandments. He doesn’t give me a theology syllable.

I indulge myself too much in theological speculation. All I should do is work a tentative rough framework that makes sense of what I encounter in prayer. So far, I’m continuing to fall flat in that regard, but I do feel I’m getting closer with each attempt.

-Fred

Amen!

 

[MaryT777]

It appears from your post (and this is the first post of yours I have run across) you have put a lot of thought into this.

Praying for you as you discern your place in God’s kingdom.

Blessings,

Mary.

 

[fhansen]

Over the several years I’ve been off and on this forum, I’ve had shifting and very different viewpoints with plenty of ping ponging back and forth between Christianity, Buddhism and Judaism. I have always found that this forum has been respectful, well versed in scripture, and articulate. I have also been impressed and greatful for the many people who have showed genuine concern for me as a person and as a seeker, not just a theologian opponent. Thank you very much!

In that spirit, I thought I’d share how as my spiritual practice has deepened and taken several sharp turns that I’ve come to realize first of all it’s not about me (it’s about God) and it’s even less about what I happen to think about God.

On the simplest, most obvious but overlooked level, God isn’t changed by my beliefs. If God exists as a trinity He doesn’t stop being so because I made a counter argument. Jesus doesn’t stop being the incarnate God because I stop believing. It’s this way for all my beliefs about God.

I’m also firmly convinced that God alone is the source of salvation. We are not saved by our beliefs nor our religious affiliation nor gaining the approval of any human authority (religious or otherwise). If Jesus Christ is God and we are saved by Christ, then we are still saved by God. I know God thru prayer and have deep faith in his redeeming me at the time of my death. Perhaps this is because I have faith, perhaps because I was baptised as an infant and had a born again expierence later in my teens, perhaps because I’ve never renouced Christ. Or perhaps it is solely because I am a child of God. I don’t know, but I have the assurance of salvation thru God’s mercy and love.

God gives me zero authority to judge the beliefs and paths of others. I am supposed to be discerning yes but it’s not my salvation to give, it’s Gods. So let’s say you are saved by God and are His beloved child on whom He shows favor. My disagreeing with you counts for nothing.

Finnaly, God leads me thru prayer. He calls me first to Him and then to follow His commandments. He doesn’t give me a theology syllable.

I indulge myself too much in theological speculation. All I should do is work a tentative rough framework that makes sense of what I encounter in prayer. So far, I’m continuing to fall flat in that regard, but I do feel I’m getting closer with each attempt.

-Fred

I do appreciate the broad perspective here, and especially this perhaps: “If Jesus Christ is God and we are saved by Christ, then we are still saved by God.” This is sooo important. We are saved by God. In fact if Jesus saves us, He *must *be God. When we’ve seen Jesus we’ve seen the Father. He reveals God’s nature and will. It was *God *hanging on the cross.

If Catholics don’t mention the name “Jesus” quite as often as some denominations do, it’s only because of this recognition-there is no* distinction* between Jesus and God. And the primary revelation is just that: God is love-and loves the world so deeply that He would even willingly experience humiliation, torture, and physical death in order to prove it- in order to prove that love and goodness are foundational to this universe.

 

[ZenFred]

It appears from your post (and this is the first post of yours I have run across) you have put a lot of thought into this.

Praying for you as you discern your place in God’s kingdom.

Blessings,

Mary.

Thanks. I actually feel much better, I wrote it kinda of a thank you for everyone putting up with me and explaining things over and over to me.
But the idea of letting go of trying to be right is really freeing.

 

[MchaelPatrick]

Over the several years I’ve been off and on this forum, I’ve had shifting and very different viewpoints with plenty of ping ponging back and forth between Christianity, Buddhism and Judaism. I have always found that this forum has been respectful, well versed in scripture, and articulate. I have also been impressed and greatful for the many people who have showed genuine concern for me as a person and as a seeker, not just a theologian opponent. Thank you very much!

In that spirit, I thought I’d share how as my spiritual practice has deepened and taken several sharp turns that I’ve come to realize first of all it’s not about me (it’s about God) and it’s even less about what I happen to think about God.

On the simplest, most obvious but overlooked level, God isn’t changed by my beliefs. If God exists as a trinity He doesn’t stop being so because I made a counter argument. Jesus doesn’t stop being the incarnate God because I stop believing. It’s this way for all my beliefs about God.

I’m also firmly convinced that God alone is the source of salvation. We are not saved by our beliefs nor our religious affiliation nor gaining the approval of any human authority (religious or otherwise). If Jesus Christ is God and we are saved by Christ, then we are still saved by God. I know God thru prayer and have deep faith in his redeeming me at the time of my death. Perhaps this is because I have faith, perhaps because I was baptised as an infant and had a born again expierence later in my teens, perhaps because I’ve never renouced Christ. Or perhaps it is solely because I am a child of God. I don’t know, but I have the assurance of salvation thru God’s mercy and love.

God gives me zero authority to judge the beliefs and paths of others. I am supposed to be discerning yes but it’s not my salvation to give, it’s Gods. So let’s say you are saved by God and are His beloved child on whom He shows favor. My disagreeing with you counts for nothing.

Finnaly, God leads me thru prayer. He calls me first to Him and then to follow His commandments. He doesn’t give me a theology syllable.

I indulge myself too much in theological speculation. All I should do is work a tentative rough framework that makes sense of what I encounter in prayer. So far, I’m continuing to fall flat in that regard, but I do feel I’m getting closer with each attempt.

-Fred

^THIS. Words for all faiths. Bless you!

 

[Autumn_Smoke]

Hi ZenFred!

I don’t mean to get personal, and you surely don’t have to answer, but I’m genuinely interested in why you chose Kabbalist as your stated religion. What draws you to that and do you focus on a particular practice within that belief? Do you blend that with Christian beliefs? I’ve read a little about it in my Judaic studies. Thanks!

 

[Bonnie]

On the simplest, most obvious but overlooked level, God isn’t changed by my beliefs.

That’s the same conclusion I’ve come to - and it’s taken me years! It’s wonderful how freeing that is. I no longer worry if my beliefs - or anyone else’s - are orthodox. What is - is.

 

[John_Martin]

A subtle change in meaning:

I’m also firmly convinced that God alone is the source of salvation. We are not saved by our beliefs nor our religious affiliation nor gaining the approval of any human authority (religious or otherwise). If Jesus Christ is God and we are saved by Christ, then we are still saved by God.

It is overlooking the contingency of salvation, hinging on whether the person takes the narrow road or the wide road.

“Go and preach the Official News of the Kingdom Established by God; if anyone believes you and wants to participate in this Kingdom, and asks you to baptize them, and you do baptize them, they shall be regarded as saved, regarded as included in this Kingdom. They have heard me when they heard you.”

It does matter, to you, to your inclusion in the Kingdom of Light, rather than inclusion in those who are perishing, whether you are attentive to truth or to deception.
Who is the messenger you are listening to, and is he a faithful witness of the Lord?

The originating post sounds like an excuse to say, “Whatever…, in my estimation God hasn’t given any definitive revelation of himself, according to my judgement of what is a valid revelation, so I will experiment and find what suits my definitions.”

 

[ZenFred]

A subtle change in meaning:
It is overlooking the contingency of salvation, hinging on whether the person takes the narrow road or the wide road.

“Go and preach the Official News of the Kingdom Established by God; if anyone believes you and wants to participate in this Kingdom, and asks you to baptize them, and you do baptize them, they shall be regarded as saved, regarded as included in this Kingdom. They have heard me when they heard you.”

It does matter, to you, to your inclusion in the Kingdom of Light, rather than inclusion in those who are perishing, whether you are attentive to truth or to deception.
Who is the messenger you are listening to, and is he a faithful witness of the Lord?

The originating post sounds like an excuse to say, “Whatever…, in my estimation God hasn’t given any definitive revelation of himself, according to my judgement of what is a valid revelation, so I will experiment and find what suits my definitions.”

I agree with you that experimentation with belief can be problematic (maybe?). It’s good to question and examine other traditions than your own rather to take someone else’s word for it. Journeying thru doubt can strengthen faith. I also think you should choose whatever beliefs closest match your experiences, to do otherwise is illogical.

But what I think your getting at is that “experimenting” can become chasing a mirage, looking for certainty when as humans we can have none, or following the next flashy, feel good teachings. The Deepak Chopras of the world. Or being hyper-spiritual without self denial or devoting yourself to real compassion.

For me, the constant obsession for certainty drove me to continued despair and isolation. So I’m going to try a different approach now. Instead of mixing a bit here and there, I’m going to give up the whole collecting of beliefs. We all need some beliefs to even get out the door in the morning of course, but I’m not going to take them as seriously. They are not helpful to my practice. Only faith.

 

[John_Martin]

I agree with you that experimentation with belief can be problematic (maybe?). It’s good to question and examine other traditions than your own rather to take someone else’s word for it. Journeying thru doubt can strengthen faith. I also think you should choose whatever beliefs closest match your experiences, to do otherwise is illogical.

But what I think your getting at is that “experimenting” can become chasing a mirage, looking for certainty when as humans we can have none, or following the next flashy, feel good teachings. The Deepak Chopras of the world. Or being hyper-spiritual without self denial or devoting yourself to real compassion.

For me, the constant obsession for certainty drove me to continued despair and isolation. So I’m going to try a different approach now. Instead of mixing a bit here and there, I’m going to give up the whole collecting of beliefs. We all need some beliefs to even get out the door in the morning of course, but I’m not going to take them as seriously. They are not helpful to my practice. Only faith.

Well, I do take someone else’s word for it - it is the only legitimate connection historically to the Son of Man, believing the one who was sent from him, taking him at his word and saying, “Here is water; what is to prevent you from baptizing me so that I am one of you and participate in the inheritance that you participate?”

A student is a student of a teacher, and is in no way greater than all teachers, as if he did not have to take someone’s word for it.
The question is really, “who is the teacher?” not “what is the teaching?”

Our Lord, Jesus, and those whom he has sent, who proclaim only what he gave them to proclaim.

 

[ZenFred]

Well, I do take someone else’s word for it - it is the only legitimate connection historically to the Son of Man, believing the one who was sent from him, taking him at his word and saying, “Here is water; what is to prevent you from baptizing me so that I am one of you and participate in the inheritance that you participate?”

A student is a student of a teacher, and is in no way greater than all teachers, as if he did not have to take someone’s word for it.
The question is really, “who is the teacher?” not “what is the teaching?”

Our Lord, Jesus, and those whom he has sent, who proclaim only what he gave them to proclaim.

Right, you believe that Jesus of Nazareth was the incarnate God and that His teachings have been more or less (or perhaps perfectly) passed down to us to today in the New Testament. If that’s true, you can take “His” word because He is God.
The problem with that is you are likely take someone else’s word like your priest, or church tradition, or what counsels of bishops say. Maybe they are right, maybe they aren’t. Mormons have bishops and councils and scriptures and traditions too. Each religion has its equivalent.

The way around this problem to go directly to God in prayer. People talk about this how the Spirit can illumine them thru scripture. The answer I get in prayer is that God is God. I sense Him church and in the Zendo and in the synagogue. But He is also Holy and will not fit any theological box of my making.

 

[jaimeleglise]

Yes, our beliefs do not change the nature of God.
Yes, all have a chance to be saved by Jesus through the Catholic Church.
Our beliefs do matter very much. We are not free to believe whatever we wish.

 

[peter26]

I can see what the OP is saying and doubt any human institution is going to be 100% right about anything. Having said that, if you combine parts of several faiths, by definition you are more likely to be getting at least some things wrong.

Yes, all have a chance to be saved by Jesus through the Catholic Church.

The Church is not a mediator of our salvation. God saves, not the church.

 

[ZenFred]

We are not free to believe whatever we wish.

That is a vital clarification, thanks. That would a Unitarian Universalist sort of position. I’m not trying to go there.

What I’m getting at is to how to handle doubt and uncertainty, even vast uncertainty. It’s okay to not believe. In fact, it’s better to not believe and admit it than to jump into false belief. But even our false beliefs can be forgiven but it’s best not to run with them. You don’t need belief to practice and to walk in faith. I’m following God, I don’t know where that will lead, but I’ve tried figuring that out over and over again. I’m giving up on trying to know. Maybe you all are right and Jesus is God and when I die I’ll meet him at my judgement. Maybe the Jews are right and he never lived or was a false prophet and blasphemer. Maybe Zorastor was right. I don’t have a powerful enough intellect nor enough information to truly know. The answer to this problem is not to grab another book on apologetics or read another Rabbis rebuttals or study Hinduism instead. The answer is to let it all go and pray.

 

[John_Martin]

Right, you believe that Jesus of Nazareth was the incarnate God and that His teachings have been more or less (or perhaps perfectly) passed down to us to today in the New Testament. If that’s true, you can take “His” word because He is God.
The problem with that is you are likely take someone else’s word like your priest, or church tradition, or what counsels of bishops say. Maybe they are right, maybe they aren’t. Mormons have bishops and councils and scriptures and traditions too. Each religion has its equivalent.

The way around this problem to go directly to God in prayer. People talk about this how the Spirit can illumine them thru scripture. The answer I get in prayer is that God is God. I sense Him church and in the Zendo and in the synagogue. But He is also Holy and will not fit any theological box of my making.

And, YOU would have us take YOUR WORD for it, that we cannot take our Bishop’s or Priest’s word for it.
Sorry, they (our Priests and Bishops and Pope) are trustworthy servants of their Teachers in Apostolic succession of the Teachers from Jesus; you are a student of no teacher except your own imagination.
It is Jesus who told his disciples to grant salvation and the Holy Spirit by Baptizing and Laying on of Hands, in person, not by telling people to go directly to God in prayer.
Prayer, communion with God, is one of the gifts bestowed upon us when we received the Holy Spirit at the hands of his Church.

 

[ZenFred]

And, YOU would have us take YOUR WORD for it, that we cannot take our Bishop’s or Priest’s word for it.
Sorry, they (our Priests and Bishops and Pope) are trustworthy servants of their Teachers in Apostolic succession of the Teachers from Jesus; you are a student of no teacher except your own imagination.
It is Jesus who told his disciples to grant salvation and the Holy Spirit by Baptizing and Laying on of Hands, in person, not by telling people to go directly to God in prayer.
Prayer, communion with God, is one of the gifts bestowed upon us when we received the Holy Spirit at the hands of his Church.

No, don’t take my word for it. Pray and if you, God confirms that your priests are guiding you correctly then you gave your answer. I’m sure you’ve already done this. It’s just I don’t get the same answer. I don’t really get a particular or clear answer.
You can pray and experience the Holy Spirit outside of church, they don’t have a monopoly on God.
I’m not saying anyone should change what they believe if they know it to be true. I don’t know why anyone would listen to me if I did say that.

It’s fine if you don’t get what I’m saying, you can’t force belief on anyone. It’s s process of discernment.

 

[po18guy]

Which do you want to hear on that unexpected moment?

1. “Well done, good and faithful servant!”
2. “Wrong answer. Thanks for playing.”

 

[James248]

I can see what the OP is saying and doubt any human institution is going to be 100% right about anything. Having said that, if you combine parts of several faiths, by definition you are more likely to be getting at least some things wrong.

The Church is not a mediator of our salvation. God saves, not the church****
.

The Church is the channel by which God manifests His Grace. To reject the Church is to reject Christ.

 

[peter26]

The Church is the channel by which God manifests His Grace. To reject the Church is to reject Christ.

Nonsense, there are millions of people who embrace Christ without the mediation of the church.