Why it's called the Mass, (aka Its not from Ite misa est)

[Abba]

They are two different cases of the same word. Latin is a heavily inflected language and thus words are declined with different endings to indicate what function they serve in the sentence. This is true still in some cases in modern English; who and whom function differently but are still the same word. It all depends on where they occur in the sentence.

-ACEGC

This may be so, the problem is that there is a good chance that it is not.

We need proof that this is the case in the case of ‘missam’ vs ‘missa.’ Some linguist needs to get inspired to research this situation. It could just as well be the case that ‘missam’ has a different root than ‘missa.’ Take for instance, ‘misa’, one can use the same deduction and general assumption and in the face of ignorance claim because it looks possible that it also derives from ‘missa’ and just that in the linguistic evolution one of the ‘s’ was dropped. However, in actuallity ‘misa’ has a different root than ‘missa’ and means something totally different.

Misology - hatred of reason or reasoning (noun)roots:Misein/misa/miso=to hate

We need information on the root of ‘missam.’

 

[BartholomewB]

“Lost in the mists of time” is the cliché that springs to mind in connection with the hunt for the origins of this Latin word.

There was an early Christian pilgrim to the Holy Land who is known to history under at least three different names: Egeria, Aetheria, and Sylvia of Aquitaine. She lived three years in Jerusalem, apparently in the 380s. She wrote a book about her travels, which coincidentally is also known to history under several different titles. Wikipedia says:

Egeria set down her observations in a letter now called Itinerarium Egeriae (Travels of Egeria). It is sometimes also called Peregrinatio Aetheriae (the Pilgrimage of Aetheria) or Peregrinatio ad Loca Sancta (Pilgrimage to the Holy Lands) or some other combination. It is the earliest extant graphic account of a Christian pilgrimage.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egeria_(pilgrim

Well then. This book is one of the two earliest sources in which the word missa is used in the sense of the Mass. The other one is the letters of St. Ambrose, who was writing at almost exactly the same time. Ambrose was consecrated bishop of Milan in 374 and died in 397.

From that time on, that is to say, for the last sixteen hundred years, the word missa has been used in Latin simply as the everyday term for the Eucharistic liturgy, or also apparently, sometimes, for other liturgical celebrations such as Vespers or Compline. Any research project into the word’s etymological origins would have to start, therefore, at a point in or around the year 380, and work backwards from there.

 

[ProVobis]

Well then. This book is one of the two earliest sources in which the word missa is used in the sense of the Mass. The other one is the letters of St. Ambrose, who was writing at almost exactly the same time. Ambrose was consecrated bishop of Milan in 374 and died in 397.

From that time on, that is to say, for the last sixteen hundred years, the word missa has been used in Latin simply as the everyday term for the Eucharistic liturgy, or also apparently, sometimes, for other liturgical celebrations such as Vespers or Compline. Any research project into the word’s etymological origins would have to start, therefore, at a point in or around the year 380, and work backwards from there.

It sounds as if they’re saying it was coined that way and I’ve always accepted it as part of Ecclesiastical Latin as opposed to Classic Latin. In that case, it would fall in with words like “gratia” (to mean grace) and “oratio” (to mean prayer). Cicero et al had different meanings for these.

 

[BartholomewB]

It sounds as if they’re saying it was coined that way and I’ve always accepted it as part of Ecclesiastical Latin as opposed to Classic Latin. In that case, it would fall in with words like “gratia” (to mean grace) and “oratio” (to mean prayer). Cicero et al had different meanings for these.

Yes, I think you’re right. In any language, words can change their meanings over time. I wonder what my grandmother, long deceased, would say if she was told that I spend a lot of time every day sitting at a desk holding a mouse.

Missa now has the ecclesiastical meaning that it probably acquired quite suddenly one day, in Jerusalem or Milan or somewhere, sometime around the year 380. Why did they choose to call it “missa” rather than some other name? It’s an interesting question, but I suspect it will remain forever unanswered.

 

[bobballen_18]

Interesting debate.

I really only had one comment, particularly to the OP - seriously, you can’t depend on Google translate for an accurate translation. I sincerely apologize if this is in bad taste/uncharitable…but I am literally cracking up at the thought of Google translate being an authority on translating Church writings.

 

[Abba]

Yes, I think you’re right. In any language, words can change their meanings over time. I wonder what my grandmother, long deceased, would say if she was told that I spend a lot of time every day sitting at a desk holding a mouse.

Missa now has the ecclesiastical meaning that it probably acquired quite suddenly one day, in Jerusalem or Milan or somewhere, sometime around the year 380. Why did they choose to call it “missa” rather than some other name? It’s an interesting question, but I suspect it will remain forever unanswered.

Unless we find some old papyrus that will clear it up. I guess, otherwise, we may learn the answer Judgement Day.

Can you provide a quote where the person (a female possibly from ancient France) used the word?

 

[BartholomewB]

Unless we find some old papyrus that will clear it up. I guess, otherwise, we may learn the answer Judgement Day.

Can you provide a quote where the person (a female possibly from ancient France) used the word?

No, I haven’t looked for the text of her “Itinerarium” online. The historical fact that — along with St. Ambrose’s letters — it is the oldest surviving text in which the word “missa” is used in the new sense, is briefly mentioned in the Oxford English Dictionary.

 

[BartholomewB]

Abba

Here are two online sources, one in Latin and one in English. So far I’ve found the word “missa” just once. I’ll have another look later. This paragraph is very near the end, just nine paragraphs up from the end, in fact.

XLVII. 1. Post autem uenerint dies paschae, per illos octo dies, id est a pascha usque ad octauas, quemadmodum missa facta fuerit de ecclesia, et itur cum ymnis ad Anastase, mox fit oratio, benedicuntur fideles, et stat episcopus incumbens in cancello interiore, qui est in spelunca Anastasis, et exponet omnia, quae aguntur in baptismo.

thelatinlibrary.com/egeria2.html

*But after the paschal days have come, during the eight days from Easter to its octave, as soon as Mass has been celebrated in the church they go with hymns to the Anastasis; presently there is a prayer, the faithful are blessed, and the bishop stands up leaning against the inner rail which is in the cave of the Anastasis, and explains all the ceremonies of baptism. *

digital.library.upenn.edu/women/egeria/pilgrimage/pilgrimage.html

 

[De_Maria]

Yes, the both/and. However, with that in mind, it doesn’t seem very fitting to imply–or so I see it–that it’s an either/or in favor of your view, despite the majority opinion otherwise.

I don’t know what you mean.

First, the Catholic Church has not declared that Mass is derived from dismissal.
Second, the paragraph you provided shows that it is merely a word play.
Third, there are several other reasons which are listed, one of which is this:

II. WHAT IS THIS SACRAMENT CALLED?

1328 The inexhaustible richness of this sacrament is expressed in the different names we give it. Each name evokes certain aspects of it. It is called:

Eucharist, because it is an action of thanksgiving to God. The Greek words eucharistein141 and eulogein142 recall the Jewish blessings that proclaim - especially during a meal - God’s works: creation, redemption, and sanctification.

1329 The Lord’s Supper, because of its connection with the supper which the Lord took with his disciples on the eve of his Passion and because it anticipates the wedding feast of the Lamb in the heavenly Jerusalem.143

The Breaking of Bread, because Jesus used this rite, part of a Jewish meal, when as master of the table he blessed and distributed the bread,144 above all at the Last Supper.145 It is by this action that his disciples will recognize him after his Resurrection,146 and it is this expression that the first Christians will use to designate their Eucharistic assemblies;147 by doing so they signified that all who eat the one broken bread, Christ, enter into communion with him and form but one body in him.148

The Eucharistic assembly (synaxis), because the Eucharist is celebrated amid the assembly of the faithful, the visible expression of the Church.149

1330 The memorial of the Lord’s Passion and Resurrection.

The Holy Sacrifice, because it makes present the one sacrifice of Christ the Savior and includes the Church’s offering. The terms holy sacrifice of the Mass, “sacrifice of praise,” spiritual sacrifice, pure and holy sacrifice are also used,150 since it completes and surpasses all the sacrifices of the Old Covenant.

The Holy and Divine Liturgy, because the Church’s whole liturgy finds its center and most intense expression in the celebration of this sacrament; in the same sense we also call its celebration the Sacred Mysteries. We speak of the Most Blessed Sacrament because it is the Sacrament of sacraments. The Eucharistic species reserved in the tabernacle are designated by this same name.

Note that all these others are connected to the “meal” aspect of Eucharist.

Therefore, mesa, table; mass; assembly; misa; unleaveaned bread; misa; oblation or sacrifice

All of these are related to the word, misa or mass.

Let me give you a little known fact. It is an error to call the Orthodox Litrugy by the name “Mass” or “Misa”. Misa mean unleavened bread. What is the bread which is used by the Orthodox for their Eucharist?

That’s right, leavened. Therefore it is an error to call their Liturgy, the Mass.

 

[De_Maria]

I don’t know why you’re accusing me of “showing faithfulness to the Catholic Encyclopedia.” I haven’t even looked at it, let alone quoted it.

Do you normally respond to posts without reading them? My entire post is a rebuttal of the findings in that article and you are defending it.

 

[De_Maria]

That’s Spanish. Table is actually “Mensa” in the Latin.

You will find a lot of Latin in Spanish actually, with a lot of dropped letters, that is.

But while we’re at it, this is what “mass” is in different languages.

indifferentlanguages.com/words/mass

Did you know that masah means unleavened bread?

Did you know that the Orthodox use leavened bread for their Eucharist?

Did you know that it is considered an error to call their Liturgy “the Mass”?

 

[De_Maria]

Messo (masc.), messa (fem.), is the past participle of the verb mettere, to put.

italian-verbs.com/verbi-italiani/coniugazione.php?id=6086

It corresponds to the French mis/mise, the past participle of mettre.

For example, a woman who has her hair waved, has curls put in it: she has a *mise en plis *in French and a *messa in piega *in Italian, literally, in both cases, “a putting in pleats”.

This is not the same word as messa, Mass, in the ecclesiastical sense

Nor is it, of course, the same word as massa, mass in the physics sense (“a mass of 500 grams”), post #24.

missa, for dismissal, is of unknown origin. It is traced back to the Catholic Church. That means that the Catholic Church was the first to use the word. And there was already a perfectly good word to use for dismissal.

massa for mass in the physics is traced back to massa for bread.

 

[De_Maria]

Abba

Here are two online sources, one in Latin and one in English. So far I’ve found the word “missa” just once. I’ll have another look later. This paragraph is very near the end, just nine paragraphs up from the end, in fact.

XLVII. 1. Post autem uenerint dies paschae, per illos octo dies, id est a pascha usque ad octauas, quemadmodum missa facta fuerit de ecclesia, et itur cum ymnis ad Anastase, mox fit oratio, benedicuntur fideles, et stat episcopus incumbens in cancello interiore, qui est in spelunca Anastasis, et exponet omnia, quae aguntur in baptismo.

thelatinlibrary.com/egeria2.html

But after the paschal days have come, during the eight days from Easter to its octave, as soon as Mass has been celebrated in the church they go with hymns to the Anastasis; presently there is a prayer, the faithful are blessed, and the bishop stands up leaning against the inner rail which is in the cave of the Anastasis, and explains all the ceremonies of baptism.

digital.library.upenn.edu/women/egeria/pilgrimage/pilgrimage.html

Ask yourself, why is it an error to call the Orthodox liturgy, the Mass?

 

[Elizium23]

Ask yourself, why is it an error to call the Orthodox liturgy, the Mass?

I want more crackpot theories and twisted logic like this. This thread is providing much-needed entertainment. It really tickles my funny bone.

 

[Abba]

De Maria,

It seems as though Saint Justin Martyr wrote his apologies in Latin as they were addressed mostly to the Roman Emperor (he was an educated person of Greek origin and most likely had anexcellent command of the Greek language). If so, I wonder what word is being translated from the Latin to English as ‘assembly’ because that is the word he is using to refer to the Mass.

First Apology of St. Justin Martyr
On Sunday we have a common *assembly *of all our members, whether they live in the city or the outlying districts. The recollections of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as there is time. When the reader has finished, the president (priest) of the *assembly *speaks to us; he urges everyone to imitate the examples of virtue we have heard in the readings. Then we all stand up together and pray.

On the conclusion of our prayer, bread and wine and water are brought forward. The president (priest) offers prayers and gives thanks to the best of his ability, and the people give assent by saying, “Amen”. The eucharist is distributed, everyone present communicates, and the deacons take it to those who are absent.
crossroadsinitiative.com/library_article/532/Sunday_Eucharist_in_the_Early_Church_st._Justin_Martyr.html
crossroadsinitiative.com/library_article/269/First_Apology_of_St._Justin_Martyr.html

 

[Abba]

missa, for dismissal, is of unknown origin. It is traced back to the Catholic Church. That means that the Catholic Church was the first to use the word. And there was already a perfectly good word to use for dismissal.

What word already existed for dismissal?

I don’t think Saint Isidore was going to invent a word in his writings that no one understood. We have been unable to determine the origin but that does not mean the Church invented the word.

massa for mass in the physics is traced back to massa for bread.

But, Mass in the Church, is from the Old English Maesse from the Latin Missa or Missam.

 

[Abba]

Abba

Here are two online sources, one in Latin and one in English. So far I’ve found the word “missa” just once. I’ll have another look later. This paragraph is very near the end, just nine paragraphs up from the end, in fact.

XLVII. 1. Post autem uenerint dies paschae, per illos octo dies, id est a pascha usque ad octauas, quemadmodum missa facta fuerit de ecclesia, et itur cum ymnis ad Anastase, mox fit oratio, benedicuntur fideles, et stat episcopus incumbens in cancello interiore, qui est in spelunca Anastasis, et exponet omnia, quae aguntur in baptismo.

thelatinlibrary.com/egeria2.html

But after the paschal days have come, during the eight days from Easter to its octave, as soon as Mass has been celebrated in the church they go with hymns to the Anastasis; presently there is a prayer, the faithful are blessed, and the bishop stands up leaning against the inner rail which is in the cave of the Anastasis, and explains all the ceremonies of baptism.

digital.library.upenn.edu/women/egeria/pilgrimage/pilgrimage.html

This then is the oldest use of ‘missa’ (380 A.D.) for the Mass/Misa/Messe etc…(different languages) we have found so far, because Saint Isidore did not use ‘missa’ to refer to Mass but used it as a word clearly meaning ‘dismissal’ - to say that the catechumens are dismissed before consecration. Interesting, and she is saying that it is ‘celebrated’, ummm.

Well, Saint Justin Martyr goes back a little further: “Reflecting the way the Eucharist was celebrated in Rome about 150 AD, only about 55 years after the last New Testament books” and he uses the word ‘assembly.’ If he wrote in Latin it was ‘multitudo’ which has the root of “multus” ‎(“much, many”) but ‘multus’ doesn’t even come close to ‘missam’ or ‘missa.’ If he wrote in Greek is would have been: συνέλευση - (synélefsi) f ‎(plural συνελεύσεις) assembly, congress, diet, synod (legislative bodies). Oooh, check it out, synod comes from συνέλευση.

So, they may have called it ‘Assembly’ in the early Church - but it does not lead to ‘Missa’ - there is a gap.

Wait a minute… it seems that ‘missa’ means ‘mass’ as in ‘assembly’ according to Google. google.com/search?sourceid=chrome-psyapi2&ion=1&espv=2&es_th=1&ie=UTF-8&q=google%20translate&oq=google%20tran&rlz=1C1VFKB_enUS605US605&aqs=chrome.0.69i59j69i65l2j69i57j0l2.2736j0j7… like the ‘masses’ - the multitudes…

 

[ProVobis]

Did you know that it is considered an error to call their Liturgy “the Mass”?

If you’re referring to Newtonian physics, I’ve already conceded that point (sort of).

The reason I choose Newton is because he wrote his principles in Latin. If it becomes an issue, I will try to look up exactly what word he uses for mass.

 

[Elizium23]

Ask yourself, why is it an error to call the Orthodox liturgy, the Mass?

Did you know that protons are Catholic?

 

[Abba]

Can someone please help me find a copy of the original writings of Saint Justin Martyr? I wonder in what language he wrote his apologies and what was the original word he used for “assembly” to refer to the Mass.

I think Saint Justin Martyr may provide us with a key to solving this problem. He is using the word ‘assembly’, and as such; ‘missam’ may mean multitudo in some dialect or form.

You know, as ridiculous as some think De Maria is being, we may be swinging back to ‘mass’ because - I may have found the key with Saint Justin Martyr and his use of ‘assembly’ for ‘Mass’. Missam seems to be referring to the gathering and at one point the ‘m’ was dropped and it became ‘Missa.’

Origin

Late Middle English: from Old French masse, from Latin massa, from Greek maza ‘barley cake’; perhaps related to massein ‘knead’.
oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/mass?q=masses

However, it is neat that if this should be the case it goes to a word which is somehow connected with bread - but, it is not because it is connected with bread but because it meant ‘multitude’. So, it is not referring to the Eucharist but to the gathering of the faithful from all walks of life, from the city and the country side and the rich and the poor - as Saint Justin Martyr writes.