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Vico
Guest
The Son of God exists eternally.
am: to be, to exist, to happen, to be present.
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am: to be, to exist, to happen, to be present.
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JB_Brother_4446
Guest
Rhetorical question.
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fredms3
Guest
Jesus is God no question about that. The point here is why Jesus did not openly declare that He is God as in: ''I AM GOD."
He was telling the Jews of His Divine nature in an indirect manner, thus the question.
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fredms3
Guest
That’s an indirect way of saying it bro. The thread inquires why Jesus did not openly say this: “I AM GOD.”
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fredms3
Guest
If Jesus happens to be born in our time, He would, i believe, face the same treatment he had experienced 2000 years ago.
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Darryl_B
Guest
To the believer, he did openly say it, to the non-believer, there were ordinary people around at the time self-proclaiming to be god. Shrouded in mystery, Jesus Christ, Emmanuel, God with us, did not rely on his open claim, his self-proclaim, but rather on the evidence of what he could and did do. Even the wind and the waves obey him. Creation itself subject to its Master.
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Tomdstone
Guest
According to the Jehovah’s Witnesses, it means the Jesus existed before Abraham. But the JW do not believe that this implies that Jesus was God
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Vico
Guest
Matt 26:63-65That’s an indirect way of saying it bro. The thread inquires why Jesus did not openly say this: “I AM GOD.”
But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest said to him: I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us if thou be the Christ the Son of God. Jesus saith to him: Thou hast said it. Nevertheless I say to you, hereafter you shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of the power of God, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Then the high priests rent his garments, saying: He hath blasphemed; what further need have we of witnesses?
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Brendan
Guest
No, He was stating that He was the one who spoke to Moses Exodus 3:14
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Peter_Plato
Guest
In other words,God responded to Moses in the same way that Jesus responded to those he was addressing.
When Moses asked, “Who should I say has sent me?” God didn’t respond merely with “Tell them God sent you.” Rather, he made it much more personal and said, “Go and say I AM has sent you.”
Clearly, the Jewish people understood that the title “God” for them was identical to the divine name, I AM who I AM. So when Jesus responded with I AM statements, he effectively was making himself God – not merely “equal to” God, but God himself BECAUSE he was using not merely the title God, but the personal NAME of God.
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carefullytread
Guest
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JB_Brother_4446
Guest
He called himself the Son of God and forgave people’s sins. In Jewish culture only God could forgive sins. What do you think THAT means DaddyGirl?
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Peter_Plato
Guest
Clearly, you have NO idea what you are talking about.
Mark, Matthew and Luke – along with Acts – are littered with God references, you just don’t recognize them because your knowledge of Scripture is superficial and literalist, along with the fact that your agenda is blatant.
For example, EVERY “You have heard it said…, But I say unto you…” is an implicit reference to Jesus’ authority to override the Mosaic Law and covenant, which only God could do.
Besides that, Paul’s writings contain all kinds of references to Jesus being God and many of those were written within a decade or two of Jesus’ death AND Paul was a Pharisee who would have understood better than most what such a claim entailed. He compulsively checked the content of his message with Peter, James and John, the stalwarts of the faith in the very early days, so there is every reason to think they, too, believed Jesus was God and claimed to be God from the very beginning of his ministry.
Again, your “analysis” is shallow and tainted.
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Peter_Plato
Guest
Sure, use that paragon of scholarly expertise with regard to Scripture – Wikipedia – to defend your claims.
You don’t expect to be taken very seriously, do you?
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carefullytread
Guest
When I read Mark 2:1-12, I can do so with the benefit of all the teachings on Christ’s divinity that have come afterwards. But if you don’t know that just look at the passage (I’ll use KJV)
you could pretty easily take that to mean “It’s not just God that can forgive sins, but Jesus too.” Two reasons for this are that one, as I mentioned in an earlier post, the Son of Man is not a title for God; it’s a powerful figure distinctly not God in the Jewish theology, and two that the scribes are amazed and glorify God, not Jesus. If they interpreted it as Jesus saying He is God, you might expect them to glorify Him directly. After all, they would be in presence of God!
These aren’t slam dunk arguments, but they do raise the question of the OP of why it isn’t more clear. To be honest, if I didn’t know the Church’s teachings on this matter, I would not read this passage as proof that Jesus was God, but rather that He had been given the ability to forgive sins and what the scribes learn how incredible He is, but not that He is God.
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Peter_Plato
Guest
…and of whom is Christ, according to the flesh, who is over all things, God blessed for ever. (Romans 9:5)
…awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, … (Titus 2:13)
He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation; for in Him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities–all things were created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. (Colossians 1:15-17)
For in Him the whole fulness of deity dwells bodily, (Colossians 2:9)
“…he [Christ], for whom and by whom all things exist…” (Heb 2:10)
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen." (Romans 9:5)
“Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.” (Philippians 2:6-7)
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Peter_Plato
Guest
Clearly, you too, don’t understand what is involved in forgiving sins.
If someone injures you, you alone, as the one injured, have the right to forgive the injury.
Sin is a transgression against God himself, so God himself AND alone has the authority to forgive sin. Having the “ability” to forgive sin isn’t really the question. The question is more about who has the authority and right to forgive sin, which is why Jesus asked, "Which is easier, to say “Get up and walk’ or to say 'Your sins are forgiven?” On the surface, it appears easier to claim the ‘ability’ to forgive sins, but it isn’t that simple. God alone has that authority, which is why the physical healings and raising the dead by Jesus were mere signs of having that authority – since that authority can only reside in God himself, since sin is a trespass against God himself as Creator and Sustainer of the order and purpose in the fabric of reality itself.
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Peter_Plato
Guest
You haven’t made that case.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Matthew 11:15
15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
The Divinity of Jesus Christ Proved from Scripture
I. Did Jesus claim to be God?
1. Jesus claimed the Divine Name (‘I AM’)
Exodus 3:14
13 Then Moses said to God, “If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ what shall I say to them?” 14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’” 15 God also said to Moses, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you’: this is my name for ever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations.
John 8:58
53 Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? And the prophets died! Who do you claim to be?” 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing; it is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say that he is your God. 55 But you have not known him; I know him. If I said, I do not know him, I should be a liar like you; but I do know him and I keep his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he was to see my day; he saw it and was glad.” 57 The Jews then said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” 59 So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple.
Why did the Jews want to stone Jesus if they did not believe that He was claiming to be God?
2. Jesus claimed to be the Son of God and equal to God.
John 5:18
16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. 17 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” 18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
3. Jesus claimed to be the First and the Last – a Title Reserved for God Alone
Isaiah 44:6
Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides Me.”
Revelation 1:17-18
“Do not be afraid; I [Jesus] am the first and the last, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.”
Would a mere prophet claim to be the “First and the Last”?
4. Jesus claimed to be Truth – not just to proclaim the truth.
John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.
5. Jesus claimed to share in Divine Glory
In the Old Testament, we find that Yahweh will not share his glory with anyone.
Isaiah 42:8
“I am the LORD, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another.” (Cf. Isaiah 48:11—“My glory I will not give to another.”)
Yet Jesus claimed, not only that he would be glorified with the Father, but that he had glory with the Father before the world was created!
John 17:5
“Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.”
How can anyone see this as anything other than a claim to deity?
6. Jesus claimed to be the Messiah and the Son of God Before the Sanhedrin
Daniel 7:13-14
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
Daniel prophesied that the Son of Man would be worshiped as God.
Mark 14:61-65
61 But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer. Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?” 62 “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.” 63 The high priest tore his clothes. “Why do we need any more witnesses?” he asked. 64 “You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?” They all condemned him as worthy of death.
Replying to the High Priest at His trial before the Sanhedrin, Jesus quoted the Daniel and applied this prophecy to Himself.
I. Did Jesus claim to be God?
1. Jesus claimed the Divine Name (‘I AM’)
Exodus 3:14
13 Then Moses said to God, “If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ what shall I say to them?” 14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’” 15 God also said to Moses, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you’: this is my name for ever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations.
John 8:58
53 Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? And the prophets died! Who do you claim to be?” 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing; it is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say that he is your God. 55 But you have not known him; I know him. If I said, I do not know him, I should be a liar like you; but I do know him and I keep his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he was to see my day; he saw it and was glad.” 57 The Jews then said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” 59 So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple.
Why did the Jews want to stone Jesus if they did not believe that He was claiming to be God?
2. Jesus claimed to be the Son of God and equal to God.
John 5:18
16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. 17 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” 18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
3. Jesus claimed to be the First and the Last – a Title Reserved for God Alone
Isaiah 44:6
Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides Me.”
Revelation 1:17-18
“Do not be afraid; I [Jesus] am the first and the last, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.”
Would a mere prophet claim to be the “First and the Last”?
4. Jesus claimed to be Truth – not just to proclaim the truth.
John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.
5. Jesus claimed to share in Divine Glory
In the Old Testament, we find that Yahweh will not share his glory with anyone.
Isaiah 42:8
“I am the LORD, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another.” (Cf. Isaiah 48:11—“My glory I will not give to another.”)
Yet Jesus claimed, not only that he would be glorified with the Father, but that he had glory with the Father before the world was created!
John 17:5
“Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.”
How can anyone see this as anything other than a claim to deity?
6. Jesus claimed to be the Messiah and the Son of God Before the Sanhedrin
Daniel 7:13-14
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
Daniel prophesied that the Son of Man would be worshiped as God.
Mark 14:61-65
61 But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer. Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?” 62 “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.” 63 The high priest tore his clothes. “Why do we need any more witnesses?” he asked. 64 “You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?” They all condemned him as worthy of death.
Replying to the High Priest at His trial before the Sanhedrin, Jesus quoted the Daniel and applied this prophecy to Himself.
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