Why Jesus did not openly say this: "I AM GOD'

[PNEUMA]

PNEUMA;13801340:

Because he wasn’t God the Father (John 14:28)

My friend, you lack a true and complete understanding of the Nature of God

The Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit share both equally and in-total the One Same and Perfect Nature. It like the Trinity [3 in 1] are Divine Mysteries:thumbsup:

John 10:30
I and the Father are one.

They ARE co-equal and co-Eternal

Easter Blessings,

PJM

Do you really think John 10:30 contradicts John 14:28 ?

The Father is greater than Jesus, they are not the same.

John 14:28
the Father is greater than I.

 

[PNEUMA]

It appears that Eusebius was about the only one who didn’t hold St. Papias in “high regard” and that wasn’t because of the story of Judas but because St. Papias, according to Eusebius, shared what Eusebius considered to be the chiliastic views of St. Justin Martyr and St. Irenaeus. Unfortunately, we have nothing to base that claim upon except Eusebius since none of the writings of St. Papias survive except in fragment form quoted by other writers. So St. Papias can’t really defend himself from Eusebius’ claims and disparagement now, can he?

Papias seems to have been held in sufficiently high regard that he was considered a saint by the early Church. Not so with Eusebius. Perhaps he shouldn’t have spent so much effort or so many words bad-mouthing Papias. A lesson, I suppose, for all of us.

We have this quote from Papias. It’s difficult to say, if he speaks of a spiritual paradise or a physical paradise. To me this is Eucharist imagery, in other words he speaks of the spiritual paradise.

“The days will come when vines will grow, each having ten thousand shoots, and on each shoot ten thousand branches, and on each branch ten thousand twigs, and on each twig ten thousand clusters, and in each cluster ten thousand grapes, and each grape when crushed will yield twenty-five measures of wine. And when one of the saints takes hold of a cluster, another cluster will cry out, I am better, take me, bless the Lord through me. Similarly a grain of wheat will produce ten thousand heads, and every head will have ten thousand grains, and every grain ten pounds of fine flour, white and clean. And the other fruits, seeds, and grass will produce in similar proportions, and all the animals feeding on these fruits produced by the soil will in turn become peaceful and harmonious toward one another, and fully subject to humankind”

 

[ynotzap]

Do you really think John 10:30 contradicts John 14:28 ?

The Father is greater than Jesus, they are not the same.

John 14:28
the Father is greater than I.

We must remember that the actions of the Trinity take place in eternity, not in time, The Son proceeds from the Father eternally, the Father knowing Himself, begets the Son eternally. The Son is a True person, co-eternal with the Father. In order to explain this to mortals (us) He had to use the process of sequence , the Father is prior to begetting the Son, and the love for each other begets the Holy Spirit, eternally. Can you image Jesus trying to explain this to his listeners using language and meanings they couldn’t understand. Also remember Jesus said " I and the Father are one. Keep our perspective right The literal translation can be misleading, it needs Theological expertise, combined with Metaphysical thinking. Time does not exist in eternity, so the Begetting is not sequential, in a sense, it is simultaneous,co-eternal (no beginning, no end), ever-existing Also Jesus said to the apostles " …when you see me, you see the Father…" Jesus is the perfect reflection of the Father.

 

[PNEUMA]

We must remember that the actions of the Trinity take place in eternity, not in time, The Son proceeds from the Father eternally, the Father knowing Himself, begets the Son eternally. The Son is a True person, co-eternal with the Father. In order to explain this to mortals (us) He had to use the process of sequence , the Father is prior to begetting the Son, and the love for each other begets the Holy Spirit, eternally. Can you image Jesus trying to explain this to his listeners using language and meanings they couldn’t understand. Also remember Jesus said " I and the Father are one. Keep our perspective right The literal translation can be misleading, it needs Theological expertise, combined with Metaphysical thinking. Time does not exist in eternity, so the Begetting is not sequential, in a sense, it is simultaneous,co-eternal (no beginning, no end), ever-existing ** Also Jesus said to the apostles " …when you see me, you see the Father…" Jesus is the perfect reflection of the Father.**

Correct, Jesus is the perfect reflection of the Father. But he’s not the Father himself. Only God the Father is God the Father. No, metaphysical thinking needed.

Jesus just has the highest office, God’s office

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

Correct, Jesus is the perfect reflection of the Father. But he’s not the Father himself. Only God the Father is God the Father. No, metaphysical thinking needed.

Jesus just has the highest office, God’s office

No one is saying Jesus is God the Father. We are discussing if Jesus claimed to be God. Which He indeed did. The dilemma of the Jews in His time was whether He was God, Liar, or Lunatic.

 

[PJM]

Do you really think John 10:30 contradicts John 14:28 ?

The Father is greater than Jesus, they are not the same.

John 14:28
the Father is greater than I.

NO BUT

One is Jesus in His Divine Nature claiming equality as GOD

The second is Jesus in His HUMAN nature, claiming than his HUMAN nature is inferior to His and the Fathers Divine Nature. Amen!

 

[PNEUMA]

No one is saying Jesus is God the Father. We are discussing if Jesus claimed to be God. Which He indeed did. The dilemma of the Jews in His time was whether He was God, Liar, or Lunatic.

No, the dilemma of the Jews was, why Jesus did and said things, that only God the Father could do, according to them. They simply couldn’t understand that God the Father, had given Jesus the authority, to say and do what he did. They thought he was making himself God the Father, they simply couldn’t differentiate between God the Father and Jesus.

 

[PNEUMA]

NO BUT

One is Jesus in His Divine Nature claiming equality as GOD

The second is Jesus in His HUMAN nature, claiming than his HUMAN nature is inferior to His and the Fathers Divine Nature. Amen!

I don’t think the human side of Jesus says one thing and the divine side says another thing. I think it’s just you that misunderstands his words.

 

[ynotzap]

No, the dilemma of the Jews was, why Jesus did and said things, that only God the Father could do, according to them. They simply couldn’t understand that God the Father, had given Jesus the authority, to say and do what he did. They thought he was making himself God the Father, they simply couldn’t differentiate between God the Father and Jesus.

A good point, was Jesus known as the Son of God before He came into the world? The Father did acknowledge that Jesus was His Son in the new testament “This is My Son in whom I am well pleased” God promised Abraham a Redeemer, but never said that the Redeemer was His Son, and He promised Adam the same. But Jesus did evoke from the mouths of his opponents that He was God “…you say that I am…” Do I stand to be corrected?

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

No, the dilemma of the Jews was, why Jesus did and said things, that only God the Father could do, according to them. They simply couldn’t understand that God the Father, had given Jesus the authority, to say and do what he did. They thought he was making himself God the Father, they simply couldn’t differentiate between God the Father and Jesus.

Exactly what I was saying in different wording. And the Jews were angry at Him because he claimed to be equal to God the Father.

 

[4Jesus4]

Many of the posts are great. There is one verse where Jesus specifically said he was God. And not just any God, but he was having a great discussion with the pharisees:

John 8:56 - 59
"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.
Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet 50 years old, and You have seen Abraham?”
Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

When he said " I AM", that was a direct reference to the God in the old testament and one the pharisees would recognize immediately. Note their response. Yes they tried to stone Him right away but it wasn’t His time and by His power He was able to walk right through them.

 

[PNEUMA]

PNEUMA;13807498:

JB Brother 4446;13804429:

No one is saying Jesus is God the Father. We are discussing if Jesus claimed to be God. Which He indeed did. The dilemma of the Jews in His time was whether He was God, Liar, or Lunatic.

No, the dilemma of the Jews was, why Jesus did and said things, that only God the Father could do, according to them. They simply couldn’t understand that God the Father, had given Jesus the authority, to say and do what he did. They thought he was making himself God the Father, they simply couldn’t differentiate between God the Father and Jesus.Exactly what I was saying in different wording. And the Jews were angry at Him because he claimed to be equal to God the Father.

Equal yes, but not God the Father himself.

 

[PNEUMA]

Many of the posts are great. There is one verse where Jesus specifically said he was God. And not just any God, but he was having a great discussion with the pharisees:

John 8:56 - 59
"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.
Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet 50 years old, and You have seen Abraham?”
Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

When he said " I AM", that was a direct reference to the God in the old testament and one the pharisees would recognize immediately. Note their response. Yes they tried to stone Him right away but it wasn’t His time and by His power He was able to walk right through them.

Jesus only said he was before Abraham, not that he was God the Father.

 

[ynotzap]

Jesus only said he was before Abraham, not that he was God the Father.

Are you assuming that because Jesus said He was before Abraham that He was saying that He is God the Father If you are, you are greatly mistaken and do not understand the Divine Mystery of the Holy Trinity, three Divine Persons in One God. This is evident in the Baptism of Jesus, it was heard “This is My Son, in whom I am well pleased. The Holy Spirit descended in the form of a Dove. And again Jesus said that when He ascended into Heaven to take His place at the right hand of the Father, He would send His Spirit to give the Apostles understanding of all that He taught them. So why do you keep insisting that Jesus is not the Father, we know that. But we are saying that He is God, co-eternal with the Father and the Holy Spirit. Jesus said " Father, Glorify me with the glory I had with you before the world was made” and the Father said, I both glorify, and I will continue to glorify you…" Jesus is the Son of God, and God co-eternal with the Father and the Holy Spirit. This is our belief. Refer to one of my posts where I quoted scripture giving the reason why Jesus evoked the truth that He was God from others, and not directly from Himself.

 

[PNEUMA]

Are you assuming that because Jesus said He was before Abraham that He was saying that He is God the Father If you are, you are greatly mistaken and do not understand the Divine Mystery of the Holy Trinity, three Divine Persons in One God. This is evident in the Baptism of Jesus, it was heard “This is My Son, in whom I am well pleased. The Holy Spirit descended in the form of a Dove. And again Jesus said that when He ascended into Heaven to take His place at the right hand of the Father, He would send His Spirit to give the Apostles understanding of all that He taught them. So why do you keep insisting that Jesus is not the Father, we know that. But we are saying that He is God, co-eternal with the Father and the Holy Spirit. Jesus said " Father, Glorify me with the glory I had with you before the world was made” and the Father said, I both glorify, and I will continue to glorify you…" Jesus is the Son of God, and God co-eternal with the Father and the Holy Spirit. This is our belief. Refer to one of my posts where I quoted scripture giving the reason why Jesus evoked the truth that He was God from others, and not directly from Himself.

Jesus did not say he was Yahweh (I am) that is God the Father, as several poster seems to think.

 

[PJM]

No, the dilemma of the Jews was, why Jesus did and said things, that only God the Father could do, according to them. They simply couldn’t understand that God the Father, had given Jesus the authority, to say and do what he did. They thought he was making himself God the Father, they simply couldn’t differentiate between God the Father and Jesus.

We have to be careful here

Acts Of Apostles 4:4
But many of them who had heard the word, believed; and the number of the men was made five thousand.

Acts Of Apostles 2:41
They therefore that received his word, were baptized; and there were added in that day about three thousand souls.

Its a SOLID idea to be more precise in the language we choose to sahre:thumbsup:

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

Jesus did not say he was Yahweh (I am) that is God the Father, as several poster seems to think.

You clearly disregard the opening verses in John’s gospel. “In the beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God. And the Word was God.” Emphasis mine.

 

[ynotzap]

Jesus did not say he was Yahweh (I am) that is God the Father, as several poster seems to think.

The words of Jesus “Before you came to be I Am” And when He was approached by the Roman soldiers to be crucified Jesus said who are you looking for and they said Jesus of Nazareth , and He said I Am, and they fell to the ground, and then He said again…I AM.
I Am to the Jews is equating himself to God, not to the Person of just the Father, but to Himself, and the Holy Spirit as One God. He is not saying that He is the Father, or the Holy Spirit, but is one with them as God. Look up my post 146, and your answer, 147. You said you do not need the (Scholastic ) metaphysics to understand, and smiled, In your case it is needed to understand what the words of Jesus meant. Only Jesus, as a human, could say He was God, by saying “I Am”, and the Jews said that he was blaspheming, making Himself God. In metaphysics “I Am” means I am Existence, I give existence to all things, I am the Creator. This is using metaphysics in conjunction with Holy Scripture. Metaphysics in Theology is the science of being (I Am), as being which goes far beyond personal interpretation, for accuracy in interpretation of scripture, that’s why we have St. Thomas Acquinas as one of the great Teachers of the Catholic Church. It is the dogma of the Catholic Church that there is One God, with Three Divine Persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Now if you can’t accept this, then we have to agree to disagree When Jesus says, “I Am” He is saying that He is God which is inclusive of the Father,and the Holy Spirit and Himself. The Eternal Triangle is the symbol of the Trinity, and the Divine Persons are never separated they are the One God Is is a Divine Mystery. Jesus was always united with the Father, as a Divine Person, even on the Cross, even though his human nature suffered. Jesus has a human nature and a Divine nature, but He was always a Divine Person, . It is called the "Hypostatic Union

 

[PNEUMA]

You clearly disregard the opening verses in John’s gospel. “In the beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God. And the Word was God.” Emphasis mine.

I do not, I just think they are a bit misunderstood. John just points out the overall importance of God’s words, that is, the creative power of God’s words, pivotal for understanding his gospel.

These words, that existed from the beginning, materialized into Jesus Christ (John 1:14)

Just as we now have Jesus Christ in the form of bread and wine, you had in the beginning Jesus Christ in the form of God’s words. God the Fathers words.

Once again, this doesn’t mean that Jesus was God the Father himself, he was only God the Fathers spoken word, by which everything was created.

This shouldn’t be so difficult to understand ?

 

[PNEUMA]

The words of Jesus “Before you came to be I Am” And when He was approached by the Roman soldiers to be crucified Jesus said who are you looking for and they said Jesus of Nazareth , and He said I Am, and they fell to the ground, and then He said again…I AM…

This is a complete misunderstanding, Jesus just answers “it’s me” or “I am he” to the Temple guards. He doesn’t say God’s old testament name.

BTW: God has a new name (John 17:6 and 17:26)