Why Jews don't need to be saved

  • Thread starter Thread starter Valke2
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
The Church does not accept the Old Testament covenant as being currently salvific. This does not mean that people who follow modern-day Judaism cannot be saved, however. It simply means that people who are religiously Jewish who are saved are saved in spite of their Judaism, not because of it. This is true of followers of any non-Catholic religion.

On the other hand, if someone knows that Jesus is the messiah, and that He established the Catholic Church, and he or she does not become a Catholic, he or she will not go to Heaven.
Many years ago, I was challenged by a “messianic” Christian missionary to prove whether Jesus was the messiah or not. He dared me to pray and ask God to show me.

The funny thing was, I was not a religious Jew at the time, and was in fact dating a guy who was a “messianic” but did not reveal to me until a little later in the dating process (I guess he was afraid if he was honest right away, I’d dump him!)

Anyway, I did take him up on the challenge, and asked God to show me.

God never showed me Jesus as being the messiah…in fact, I began finding Bible verses and other things which led me to see he was NOT the messiah. Not long after that, I decided to investigate traditional Judaism (the religion of my childhood which I’d gotten away from as a teen), and ended up meeting a Chasidic rabbi who was not only a renowned Kabbalist, but also an expert at debunking Christian claims for Jesus.

Oh, and God kept showing me Deuteronomy 13, over and over again…whenever I’d open my Bible, it was there.
 
There is a misconception among many people that Judaism teaches that we are redeemed by obeying the commandments – through our deeds and acts. But this is not the case.

We were redeemed at Mt. Sinai when God gave us the Torah. Our obeying the mitzvot/commandments through accepting Torah is our RESPONSE to the redemption. It is how we express our relationship with God.

When a missionary attempts to convince a Jew that he or she needs to accept Jesus in order to be saved, they are essentially offering us a gift we have already received. And they are asking us to give up our relationship with God, which we express through the obeying of His Commandments. Not a good deal for us.
Isaiah 45:17 says, “Israel IS saved with an EVERLASTING salvation”. Of course, the historic Christian church tried to get around passages like that by claiming that they, and not the Jews, are “the new Israel”.
 
But what I don’t understand is that, if the Church recognizes that our covenant with God is ongoing and valid, then why should it concern itself with trying to have us accept Jesus?
Quite right - at that’s why the Roman standpoint on this is erroneous (typo…).

There is only ONE way to salvation, for Jews and gentiles alike - and that way is Jesus. That is the Christian standpoint. Anything else is shaping theology from the crimes of the past, and that is not valid.
 
There is a misconception among many people that Judaism teaches that we are redeemed by obeying the commandments – through our deeds and acts. But this is not the case.

We were redeemed at Mt. Sinai when God gave us the Torah. Our obeying the mitzvot/commandments through accepting Torah is our RESPONSE to the redemption. It is how we express our relationship with God.

When a missionary attempts to convince a Jew that he or she needs to accept Jesus in order to be saved, they are essentially offering us a gift we have already received. And they are asking us to give up our relationship with God, which we express through the obeying of His Commandments. Not a good deal for us.
I don’t know how to spell her name but have you ever listened to Rosland Moss (I’m sure I butchered the spelling) ?? If you like this forum, I imagine you might watch EWTN (eternal word television network) Or a radio station in your area that has EWTN’s shows on the radio. She is on quite often and very very good in explaining what the Jews of today believe and how and why she converted. She is very loving. …just curious. You might like her.
 
I don’t know how to spell her name but have you ever listened to Rosland Moss (I’m sure I butchered the spelling) ?? If you like this forum, I imagine you might watch EWTN (eternal word television network) Or a radio station in your area that has EWTN’s shows on the radio. She is on quite often and very very good in explaining what the Jews of today believe and how and why she converted. She is very loving. …just curious. You might like her.
I do get ETWN on cable but I don’t watch much of it. I’ll keep my eyes open for her.
 
There is a misconception among many people that Judaism teaches that we are redeemed by obeying the commandments – through our deeds and acts. But this is not the case.

We were redeemed at Mt. Sinai when God gave us the Torah. Our obeying the mitzvot/commandments through accepting Torah is our RESPONSE to the redemption. It is how we express our relationship with God.

When a missionary attempts to convince a Jew that he or she needs to accept Jesus in order to be saved, they are essentially offering us a gift we have already received. And they are asking us to give up our relationship with God, which we express through the obeying of His Commandments. Not a good deal for us.
Do you believe in a messiah.

If so, who was he? You speak in the past “already received.”
 
Do you believe in a messiah.

If so, who was he? You speak in the past “already received.”
Yes, I believe in a Messiah. I’ll let you know who he is when he gets here. It will not be his job to redeem the Jewish people. That is a job no human can do and I don’t believe the Messiah will be Divine.
 
I
I don’t know why you are trying to make a point about “biologocial Jews”. Judaism is a way to worship GOd. It is not a physical trait.
**But the Jews are Gods chosen people and in the past (before Jesus) you had to be a Jew by blood. You couldn’t “convert”.

I’m curious as to how people today with Jewish beliefs explain that? What has changed for this to be allowed? …I ask this in accordance with what is taught by your faith.**----------------------------------------------
And so I’m not posting a bunch of times…here’s another comment to a post…
*Is it racists to say that the President of the US must be a US citizen? *

**…Very good answer. 🙂 **​

I don’t know why anyone would abandon their faith to take up another one. I’m sure the reasons are varied. I can give reasons why Judaism is for me. I don’t think of it as an “advantage over other religions.” IN general, being a jew is harder. It is a demanding religion, requiring a fair amount of study and many restrictions on how to live in this world. The advantage is that it requires a lot of study and we get to implement our belief in GOd in all our actions througout the day.

We Catholics are to do the same…to study much, and have many restriction on how to live in this world (although it is those restrictions that actually set us free), etc. But sadly we don’t always do what we should do.

But what I don’t understand is that, if the Church recognizes that our covenant with God is ongoing and valid, then why should it concern itself with trying to have us accept Jesus?

For Catholics, we believe in the Old Testament (the torah), we believe in the old covenant. But Jesus is the New Covenant in which we believe. Judaism is the root of Catholicism and Catholicism is the fullfilment of Judaism.

"Behold, The Lion from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has conquered! Halleluhia!​

Peace to you Valke2. May I pray with you to the God of Abraham? May His Will be done. Amen.
 
There is a misconception among many people that Judaism teaches that we are redeemed by obeying the commandments – through our deeds and acts. But this is not the case.

We were redeemed at Mt. Sinai when God gave us the Torah. Our obeying the mitzvot/commandments through accepting Torah is our RESPONSE to the redemption. It is how we express our relationship with God.

When a missionary attempts to convince a Jew that he or she needs to accept Jesus in order to be saved, they are essentially offering us a gift we have already received. And they are asking us to give up our relationship with God, which we express through the obeying of His Commandments. Not a good deal for us.
I think Paul had a different understanding:

Romans 10

Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Romans 11

The Remnant of Israel

11:1 I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, [1] a member of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” 4 But what is God’s reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, 8 as it is written,

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not see
and ears that would not hear,
down to this very day.”

9 And David says,

“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them;
10 let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see,
and bend their backs forever.”

Gentiles Grafted In
11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. 12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion [2] mean!

13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14 in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. 15 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? 16 If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root [3] of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.

The Mystery of Israel’s Salvation
25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: [4] a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
27 “and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now [5] receive mercy. 32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

33 Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!

34 “For who has known the mind of the Lord,
or who has been his counselor?”
35 “Or who has given a gift to him
that he might be repaid?”

36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.
 
**But the Jews are Gods chosen people and in the past (before Jesus) you had to be a Jew by blood. You couldn’t “convert”.

I’m curious as to how people today with Jewish beliefs explain that? What has changed for this to be allowed? …I ask this in accordance with what is taught by your faith.**---------------------------------------------- .
That is not my understanding. As far as I know, conversion was always permissible. It is strongly alluded to in the Torah in the laws of passover, for example. Also the story of Jacob’s sons insisting that an entire town circumcise themselves so that their two peopls could become one (the story of the rape of dinah, don’t have the verse handy).

Then there is the book of Ruth, also written several centuries before Jesus. Ruth is clearly a convert.
 
That is not my understanding. As far as I know, conversion was always permissible. It is strongly alluded to in the Torah in the laws of passover, for example. Also the story of Jacob’s sons insisting that an entire town circumcise themselves so that their two peopls could become one (the story of the rape of dinah, don’t have the verse handy).

Then there is the book of Ruth, also written several centuries before Jesus. Ruth is clearly a convert.
I should do more research before I speak then. That was my understanding but, obviously, I could be wrong. I need to hurry up and get a new Bible. My old one fell apart and all I have to read has been a small New Testament. I prefer to read a little of both the old and the New Testament each day. So…one more reason to get one before I get even more rusty on the Old Testament. 😊
 
timolive baptism is not necessary for salvation . You are saved when you accept jesus as your saviour and repent of your sins. Most christians do get baptised either bt immersion or as babies either is valid. The only christian denomination that doesnt baptise or recieve communion is the salvation army but they are wonderful christians who really do practice what they preach.
 
Valke,

you asked why the Mosaic covenant is “imperfect” and why you would need to be baptised into the Catholic Church. The answer is that you need to be baptised to recieve redemption from original sin. We are all born in original sin, even Jews. The Torah cannot eliminate original sin. The Torah’s purpose is to teach people the difference between right and wrong so that people would understand the corrupt nature of humanity and the need for redemption from original sin.

The sacrament of baptism destroys original sin and makes it possible for us to enter heaven. It does not guaruntee salvation though. We still must struggle against the flesh and perservere in righteousness, aided by other sacraments such as eucharist and penance.

After Jesus Christ established the Church many Jews left Judaism and came into the Church. This is still possible today.
 
Salaam/peace
But what I don’t understand is that, if the Church recognizes that our covenant with God is ongoing and valid, then why should it concern itself with trying to have us accept Jesus?
I am told that many Jews accept Jesus (p) as son of God. Can u tell me what’s the basis of their belief & why some Jews don’t accept Jesus (p) as son or a Prophet of God ?
 
Salaam/peace

I am told that many Jews accept Jesus (p) as son of God. Can u tell me what’s the basis of their belief & why some Jews don’t accept Jesus (p) as son or a Prophet of God ?
My advice to you would be to be extremely careful about whoever is providing you with information on many Jews accepting Jesus as the son of God, otherwise you might be susceptible to their offers of ocean-frontage properties in Nevada and shares in an arable farming scheme in the Antarctic.

You might find this link useful.
 
Salaam/peace

I am told that many Jews accept Jesus (p) as son of God. Can u tell me what’s the basis of their belief & why some Jews don’t accept Jesus (p) as son or a Prophet of God ?
If a Jew accepts Jesus as the son of God (i.e. God), then they are really christians and abandoning judaism. No normative Jew (i.e., your typical jew) would accept Jesus as a prophet or Divine being.
 
Christian theology holds that man is born in ontological sin.
A sin in man’s very being. [original sin - said to be inherited from Adam.]
Jesus of Nazareth is held to be the savior from both this ontological sin,
as well as personal sin.

The following webpage discusses the notion of original sin,
from a Judaic perspective.

jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/Original_Sin.html

As to salvation, I found these two article helpful, in
understanding a Judaic view of salvation.

faqs.org/faqs/judaism/FAQ/06-Jewish-Thought/section-38.html

beingjewish.com/toshuv/salvation.html

reen12 :tiphat:
 
Valke2, I read, today, that the sin-offerings made - were made
for unintentional sins. [which I assume to be an unintentional non-fullfillment of one of the* mitzvot.]

Do I understand this, correctly?

And on Yom Kippur - is it the case that God is asked to extend
forgiveness for sins against Him, but that sins against others
are to be mended, in some sense?

If this is the reality, in terms of Yom Kippur, I wonder if this was the source of Jesus saying:

Therefore, if you bring your gift to the altar, and there recall that your brother has anything against you, leave your gift there at the altar, go first and be reconciled with your brother, and then come and offer your gift. [Matt. 5: 23-24]

reen12
 
There is a misconception among many people that Judaism teaches that we are redeemed by obeying the commandments – through our deeds and acts. But this is not the case.

We were redeemed at Mt. Sinai when God gave us the Torah. Our obeying the mitzvot/commandments through accepting Torah is our RESPONSE to the redemption. It is how we express our relationship with God.

When a missionary attempts to convince a Jew that he or she needs to accept Jesus in order to be saved, they are essentially offering us a gift we have already received. And they are asking us to give up our relationship with God, which we express through the obeying of His Commandments. Not a good deal for us.
I am not criticizing your understanding; however, accepting the Torah at Mt. Sinai could not be your response to the Redemption since it did not yet occur.
 
Salaam/peace
Kaninchen : You might find this link useful.
thanks for the link. InshaAllah , I will read.
Valke2 : If a Jew accepts Jesus as the son of God (i.e. God), then they are really christians and abandoning judaism.
that’s funny. How come some ( if not many ) Christians think so ? I was given this info in this forum & other forum ,too.

Is it ok if I quoted u 2 in Ask about Christianity thread here ?

btw, if a Jew only thinks that Jesus (p) is son of God but not God Himself , then s/he is still a Jew ?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top