Why Jews don't need to be saved

[inJESUS]

I guess the simplest way for me to address any ethical concerns about judaism is to say that there is not one single ethical/moral teaching that Jesus talks about which is not based on Jewish law. Jesus never had a problem with the Jewish ethical/moral teachings. His problem seems to have been that he saw the many laws surrounding ritual and instituted by the rabbis as being over emphasized at the expense of the moral/ethical teachings of the Torah.

kinda agree. But what about not loving your ennemy? isn’t it in your traditions? please correct me if wrong.

 

[Valke2]

. to be frank, i don’t know what criticism has been labeled against Judaism here…maybe the posters will clarify or you can.

I wasn’t actually even thinking of Mel Gibsons movie. I meant that, historically, the purpose of staging a Passion play was to whip up hatred in the communitiy against the local Jews. I agree that the Jewish leadership had a role in the crucifixion of Jesus.

[/QUOTE]

 

[inJESUS]

inJESUS;1513218:

No. That is not a generally held belief. Usually when someone posts something from theTalmud to support that, it is either mistranslated, not understood, or simply a pure fabrication. If a Jew told you this, they were not stating a religious belief that is accepted by traditional judaism.

What is a general and firm Jewish belief is that anyone, Jew or Gentile can be righteous and deserve a share in the world to come.

good to hear this. But at Jesus’ time, there was great schism between jews and genteels. Jews blamed Jesus for even talking to them.

 

[inJESUS]

 

[Karin]

sorry

well you see, it’s easier for humans to be angry than to forgive. You’ll always find people blaming the Jews in their hearts, and people like me who meditate on when Jesus forgave them. After all, salvation is from Jews and Jesus was a Jew that’s why i love Jews.

 

[inJESUS]

inJESUS;1513237:

Salvation is from the Jews?
Are you equating that since Jesus was Jewish our salvation comes from the Jewish faith or from a Jewish person?

mmm Jesus saved not not Judaism… So yes i guess it’s from a Jewish person rather than the faith itself … What do you think?

 

[inJESUS]

Valke2, a question for you please. As we can see, there have been many prophecies regarding the Messiah and many interpretations. Some say he will be a triumphant king, others say he will be a suffering servant, others say 2 Messiah will come one suffering one triumphant ecc. In light of all these diversities amongst interpretations, how do you make sure that by choosing one interpretation, you are not missing Jesus’ fulfillment of prophecies made by other interpretations? i mean, it is clear that Jesus did fulfill the interpretations of some rabbis. So how can you make sure your stand is the correct one ? thx.

 

[Valke2]

Karin;1513241:

mmm Jesus saved not not Judaism… So yes i guess it’s from a Jewish person rather than the faith itself … What do you think?

Really, the concept of being saved doesn’t apply to Judaism. It is a christian concept. I guess the closest defintion I can come up with that applies to jews is redeemed. ANd God redeemed us whenHe brought us out of Egypt and gave us the Torah at Sinai

 

[Valke2]

Valke2, a question for you please. As we can see, there have been many prophecies regarding the Messiah and many interpretations. Some say he will be a triumphant king, others say he will be a suffering servant, others say 2 Messiah will come one suffering one triumphant ecc. In light of all these diversities amongst interpretations, how do you make sure that by choosing one interpretation, you are not missing Jesus’ fulfillment of prophecies made by other interpretations? i mean, it is clear that Jesus did fulfill the interpretations of some rabbis. So how can you make sure your stand is the correct one ? thx.

I’m not sure which prophecies you think the rabbis believe Jesus fullfilled. Judaism takes a very different interpertation of most of the proofs christians rely on for the belief that Jesus was the messiah.

There is no requirement, for example, that the messiah be a suffering servant. that is not how we read Isaiah. The suffering servant is clearly (from our point of view) Israel. We feel that Isaiah establishes this earler in chapters 41, 44, 45, 48 and 49.

We have been mistaken before about the Messiah. Historically, there have been times when jews believed theMessiah was here and were wrong. But keep in mind, in judaism there is a vast difference between claiming to be Messiah and claiming to be God.

 

[inJESUS]

the link i gave previously and which you said is Messianic Jews shows scriptures regarding the suffering messiah.

Here are other scriptures :

"When God desire to give healing to the world, He smites one righteous man among them…and through him gives heling to all…A righteous man is never afflicted save to bring healing to his generation and to make atonement for it. ( Zohar 5:218a)

“The Messiah will be… slain and lay in the streets for three days. Then…the prophet Elija will go and revive him…And in the hour when The Tribes of Israel will come forth, Clouds of Glory will go before them…and The Holy One, Blessed be He, will open for them the source of the Tree of Life, and will give them to drink on that day” ( Otot Hamashiach)

So there ARE many proof that the suffering Messiah is rooted in Judaism and not a Christian interpretation. How then you make sure that your choice is made on sound interpretations?

regarding the Messiah being God, that’s another issue. You gotta blame Jesus’ disciples

 

[inJESUS]

inJESUS;1513252:

Really, the concept of being saved doesn’t apply to Judaism. It is a christian concept. I guess the closest defintion I can come up with that applies to jews is redeemed. ANd God redeemed us whenHe brought us out of Egypt and gave us the Torah at Sinai

isn’t the messiah considered a saviour in Judaism? if yes, then the idea of “saving” is there. But the messiah will save you from what? your ennemies? all these prophets for thousands of years talking about the messiah who will only save you from your ennemies? is that the Jewish general idea of Saviour?

 

[Karin]

mmm Jesus saved not not Judaism… So yes i guess it’s from a Jewish person rather than the faith itself … What do you think?

Ok that makes sense…

 

[inJESUS]

Zechariah wrote, “Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion, shout, O daughter of Jerusalem. Be hold, thy King cometh unto thee; he is just and having salvation, lowly, and riding upon an ***, and upon a colt, the foal of an ***.”

what salvation?

Isaiah , “Surely He hath borne our griefs and carried our sorrows.” “He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities, with His stripes we are healed.” “The Lord hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all.” “Thou shalt make His soul an offering for sin.” “By His knowledge shall my Righteous servant justify many for He shall bear their iniquities.” He bore the sins of many and made intercession for the transgressors.

Doesn’t this passage talk about healing and salvation?

got to run now. thx for your answers

 

[Valke2]

Valke2;1513260:

isn’t the messiah considered a saviour in Judaism? if yes, then the idea of “saving” is there. But the messiah will save you from what? your ennemies? all these prophets for thousands of years talking about the messiah who will only save you from your ennemies? is that the Jewish general idea of Saviour?

The Jewish belief in a messiah is more along the lines of a leader who will unite the Jewish people and usher in a messainic age. He will not be divine. He will not be God. It is our job as Jews to help prepare (or repair) the world for that time. By obeying the commandments, doing acts of kindness, etc.

 

[Valke2]

the link i gave previously and which you said is Messianic Jews shows scriptures regarding the suffering messiah.

Here are other scriptures :

"When God desire to give healing to the world, He smites one righteous man among them…and through him gives heling to all…A righteous man is never afflicted save to bring healing to his generation and to make atonement for it. ( Zohar 5:218a)

“The Messiah will be… slain and lay in the streets for three days. Then…the prophet Elija will go and revive him…And in the hour when The Tribes of Israel will come forth, Clouds of Glory will go before them…and The Holy One, Blessed be He, will open for them the source of the Tree of Life, and will give them to drink on that day” ( Otot Hamashiach)

So there ARE many proof that the suffering Messiah is rooted in Judaism and not a Christian interpretation. How then you make sure that your choice is made on sound interpretations?

regarding the Messiah being God, that’s another issue. You gotta blame Jesus’ disciples

Ok.

Messianic Jews are hardly traditional jews. as far as most jews are concerned they are a Christian movment with a goal of converting jews. In any event, their interpertation is really the same as giving a Christian interpertation. It should not be used as proof of what jews believe.

The Zohar quote is not part of Jewish Tanakh – not part of our scriptures. Zohar as you may know is part of Jewish mysticism, and its language is more symbolic than literal. I’m not sure how the quote you posted, even if taken literally, would prove Jesus fullfilled anything, other than by the use of circular reasoning. (Jesus was righteous, therefore his death was to atone for the generation. How do we know he was righteous? Because he was killed…). The verse makes no mention of a messiah and nothing in that verse has anything to do with the concept of a jewish messiah. At best, this verse would be applicable to all righteous people, not just Jesus. Further, the Zohar was written centuries after Jesus’ death so it can’t be consdiered prophecy fullfilled. I’ll be happy to discuss that verse more in another post.

As for your second quote of Otot Hamashiah, that is almost exclusvily used by Christians or messianics. I am not familar with the quote, cannot vouch for its authenticity and can only say that it is, at best, a fringe belief. But I suspect it is not something from a jewish text.

 

[Valke2]

other things we look for in the messiah.

Rebuilding the Temple
all the jews will be united in Israel
all the world will believe in the One God.
no more war
He will be descended biologically from the tribe of Judah

failure to complete any of the above means that the messiah job is still open.

 

[Valke2]

There’s one answer that I haven’t given that I should have.

And that is that, since I do not and cannot completely understand God, it is possible my definition and understanding of Him is not as complete as yours. I choose to worship in my way despite that knowledge. For me, that is what faith is.

 

[tequilamac]

tequilamac;1512870:

Arrogance yes…
It is arrogance that allows a person to judge an enemy killeable. Then feel one is right with God.
Arrogance is that which allows one to hate and destroy another because one knows who is in a better condition with God.

Arrogance is that which allows the murder of innocents in order to kill the enemy.
Arrogance is that which considers non violent reactions to be a weakness.
Arrogance is that which considers it an affront to share a territory with an enemy.
Arrogance is that which lacks empathy and mercy.
Arrogance is that which allows a group to consider themselves perpetually a victim rather than victimisers.
Arrogance is that which allows no insult to pass unheeded, unrevenged.
Arrogance is feeling sorry for one’s self for lacking shoes and forgetting the man who has no feet. Arrogance.
And Christ came to defeat arrogance. We got lucky.

Yes I can take the moral high ground here. Easily. You can rant about crusades, you can rant about sinners everywhere. Yes there are sinners everywhere. But the reason I can take the moral high ground is that Jesus took what you already had and took several steps higher. You had love of friend- he added love of enemy. You had giving to the poor. He gave it all. The difference is in theology, valke. our understanding of God and his desires. What you have is good. What we have is better and harder.
Your theology allows too many loopholes away from perfect charity so to speak. Ours does not. the fact that people do not practice it perfectly does not take away from the fact that it is perfect. Because I do not know how to drive does not make my car garbage nor does it make the horse and buggy an improvement over the automobile. You are trying to compare what people do with what the theology of the religion allows. I’m not. I’m on the morally higher ground because Catholic theology is the perfection of the Jewish theology period. Jewish theology allows for tremendous hedonism and most sin is a result of the indulgence in hedonism. Now you will say but catholics don’t fast anymore and aesthetical practices are out. But that is not the point. The point is hedonism is built into Jewish theology it is not built into Catholic theology.
Judaism allows for revenge in the name of justice. Catholicism absolutely does not allow for revenge.
As far as the concept of a messiah being biological or the idea that any religion can be biologically based that you mentioned in another post- how can this be? How can the worship of an entity such as God be of biological character? How low can God go, so to speak? With Judaism, while keeping God aloof and at bay, the theology brings God down to the human level rather than trying to lift human behavior up to God’s level. In other words, God becomes acceptable to man rather than the other way around.
Catholicism tries to make man acceptable to God and lift man’s behavior up to be more compatible with God.

 

[Valke2]

Valke2;1513170:

.

I’ll only respond to your last post with this: Your understanding of Judiasm is seriously flawed.

 

[tequilamac]

tequilamac;1513763:

I’ll only respond to your last post with this: Your understanding of Judiasm is seriously flawed.

I’m sorry you feel that way. But most Jews forget- Christians have the Torah already. We study the Torah and know what it says. So I rather doubt my understanding of Judaism is as flawed as the understanding of most Jews of Judaism.