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Valke2
Guest
Anywhere. We all contain a spark of the divine.
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tequilamac
Guest
So that brings us right back to what I asked you in the first place. And an addition. If that is the case, what you just said, it is stuff and nonsense that the Messiah must be a biological Jew and it is stuff and nonsense that the original temple on earth must be rebuilt. If God dwells within, what is the point of being a biological Jew? He does not dwell biologically. What is the point of rebuilding a destructible earthly temple if the temple is already eternal? But according to you Valke, the temple on earth must be rebuilt and the Messiah must be a biological Jew. so what- that “spark” dwells more in the biological Jew? What about adopted Jews? do they have less of a “spark”? And what about the Muslims? Do they have any “spark” at all? After all, they are not biological Jews either. Reminds me of the exclusive country club atmosphere of the Jehovah Witnesses. They are worried about their biology as well. Which is why thay have no blood transfusions.
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Mr.Ex_Nihilo
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Why are you guys doing that to Valke2? 
Leave him alone aleady. It’s obvious that as Catholics we don’t necessarilly agree with ‘all aspects’ of Judiasm in any distinctly Jewish school of thought.
That still doesn’t give you guys the right to stuff Catholicism down their throats. If you want to engage in dialogue, try to find some common ground and proceed from there.
I don’t think Valke2 is looking to debate anyone on this. And he’s never been antagonistic toward Catholicism as far as I can tell.
Explain his belief more clearly? Yes. And I welcome this.
Defend his faith from verbal abuse? No. And he shouldn’t have too either.
There’s ways to share the gospel message without being childish about it.
Leave him alone aleady. It’s obvious that as Catholics we don’t necessarilly agree with ‘all aspects’ of Judiasm in any distinctly Jewish school of thought.
That still doesn’t give you guys the right to stuff Catholicism down their throats. If you want to engage in dialogue, try to find some common ground and proceed from there.
I don’t think Valke2 is looking to debate anyone on this. And he’s never been antagonistic toward Catholicism as far as I can tell.
Explain his belief more clearly? Yes. And I welcome this.
Defend his faith from verbal abuse? No. And he shouldn’t have too either.
There’s ways to share the gospel message without being childish about it.
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Valke2
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I have no idea how you arrive at all that from the statement that we all contain a spark of holiness. As for the rebuilding of the Temple, I have stated (maybe elsewhere) that there are Jews who believe that the Temple will not need to be physically rebuilt. THat Shabbat, for example, has been referred to as a “Temple of Time”. I didn’t say all “jews” contain the spark. I said all people.
I don’t know why you are trying to make a point about “biologocial Jews”. Judaism is a way to worship GOd. It is not a physical trait.
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Valke2
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Thank you. To be honest, I had no idea that last post regarding biological Jews was trying to explain anything about Catholism. If I’ve said anything that was viewed as a criticism of Cahtolicsm, I apologize. Initially, I posted this thread because it was my understanding that the Church has recognized that Jews continue to have an existing covenant and relationship with God. My question was, if this is true, then shouldn’t the CHurch not be concerned with trying to convert jews.Why are you guys doing that to Valke2?
Leave him alone aleady. It’s obvious that as Catholics we don’t necessarilly agree with ‘all aspects’ of Judiasm in any distinctly Jewish school of thought.
That still doesn’t give you guys the right to stuff Catholicism down their throats. If you want to engage in dialogue, try to find some common ground and proceed from there.
I don’t think Valke2 is looking to debate anyone on this. And he’s never been antagonistic toward Catholicism as far as I can tell.
Explain his belief more clearly? Yes. And I welcome this.
Defend his faith from verbal abuse? No. And he shouldn’t have too either.
There’s ways to share the gospel message without being childish about it.
After some informative posts onthe subject, I recognized that the Catholic Church does not, in fact, focus on converting Jews and that this is largely done by other Christian movements (denominations?).
ANd then, like all other threads, it snowballed.
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Valke2
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The belief in the Messiah’s background is scriptual. You can disagree with it. But calling it nonsense is nothing more than saying “Jews are wrong and we are right.” That may be a belief of yours, but it doesn’t do much for discussion. ANd you seem to be ignoring the fact that the Jewish belief in the Messiah is very different than the Christian belief. And not just that you are saying he’ll we return and we are saying he hasn’t shown up yet. The very definitions are different.
And there’s nothing “racist” about our requirements of the Messiah, because there’s nothing in our beliefs that say non-jews will suffer at our hands. On the contrary, we believe that the Messiah will usher in a age of world peace, and that all the world will worship GOd and acknowledge Him as the one true God (not, as someone on another thread suggested, that all the world will be Jewish). and BTW, is it not your belief that Jesus was a Jew and you not rely on scripture to show that he fullfilled the lineage requirements???
Anyway, our beliefs on the Messiah’s lineage are based on the following:
Deu. 17:15: 15 you shall set a king over you, one whom the Lord, your God, chooses;** from among your brothers**, you shall set a king over yourself; you shall not appoint a foreigner over yourself, one who is not your brother. (We read this to mean that the Messiah must be a jew.)
Gen. 49:10 The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor the student of the law from between his feet, until Shiloh comes, and to him will be a gathering of peoples. (We read this to mean the Messiah must be a member from the tribe of Judah. We also believe that to be a member from the tribe of Judah, the biological father must have been a member…)
Sam.II, 7:12-13: When your days are finished and you shall lie with your forefathers, then I will raise up your seed that shall proceed from your body after you, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. (the “you” here is King David).
Again, what I don’t understand is that, given the fact that Christians have historcaily relied on the same passages for their belief, why are you arguing that Jews are wrong for doing the same?
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tequilamac
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It’s absolutely racist. The whole idea that the messiah can only be a biological Jew is racist. It does not matter whether you plan an injury to non Jews or not. You have already stated the racial lines. He must be a biological Jew. That is racist. How can yousay it’s not?
If I said he had to be a biological black, or a biological Mexican, or a biological white person, or a biological Chinese, you would scream racism. But we’ve got this little exeption here for you- your messiah must be a biological Jew but that’s not racism because you mean no harm? What kidn of logic is that?
Yes we claim Jesus to be a Jew. But Jesus was not a racist. He opened heaven to gentiles as well. But you are saying the opening and closing of Heaven is reserved only for biological Jews. But for some reason, you believe that is not racist. It would be in any other place in any other religion in any other time. But for you? No, somehow.
By the way- is Jesus still a Jew? No. We have the New testaments word for it.
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Valke2
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Then you are a racists. Because you claim that Jesus was the messiah based, in part, on his lineage.
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Valke2
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Is it racists to say that the President of the US must be a US citizen? Because what I am saying is that the leader of the jewish people, the messiah, must be jewish? I have no idea where you came to the conclusion that the opening and closing of Heaven (whatever that means) is reserved only for biological jews. I think you need to re-read my posts.
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IHS
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So what you are saying you are saved by obeying the commandments.Have you kept them all?
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Valke2
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No. By keeping the commandments, we live up to our covenant with God and we keep Him in the forefront of our lives and our thoughts througout the day. What are we supposed to be saved from?So what you are saying you are saved by obeying the commandments.Have you kept them all?
I’m sorry you are having so much trouble understanding my posts.
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Mr.Ex_Nihilo
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Actually, Valke2 is correct.
If you guys are Christian, then I really don’t understadn why you’re claiming Jews are racist for expecting a Jewish Messiah.
Even Christians acknowledge this necessity. I know I do.
Why are you guys arguing with Valke2 about this?
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IHS
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You are supposed to be saved from the lake of fire.
All sinners will have their part in this lake of fire…Without a Savior one is doomed. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.( John 3;16) If you could keep the commandments you would not need a Savior,BUT the TRUTH is you can not keep them.
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IHS
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I,m sorry you are having trouble understanding and seeing the TRUTH.You are supposed to be saved from the lake of fire.
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Valke2
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You follow your truth and I’ll follow mine. The Christian concept of salvation is not a Jewish concept. Jews do not believe that people are born into sin. We believe that every jew (as well as every righteous gentile) has a share in the world to come. Since this is the case, salvation has no place in Judaism. THere’s nothing that we require being saved from.
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IHS
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Jesus is the Truth,and no man can come to the Father but through Christ. God says that everyone will die and then the judgement.Unless you are without sin and have obeyed His commandments you will be judged,for their is no one who is rightious.We are as filthy rags before our God.You are a sinner like all of us and we are all in need of a Savior. You cannot be good enough to earn your salvation.Jesus says that there is not one who is good but my Father in heaven. A price must be paid for your sins. That price was paid by the blood of Jesus Christ,that sacrificial passover lamb that you continue to celebrate.Jesus is the Lamb that was slain so that you could enter into heaven. It is a gift to you,if you choose to accept it.It,s your choice. God will never go against your will. You must be like Nicodemous,St. Paul,ect, They became born again believers. Jesus said you must be born again to enter into the kingdom of heaven.Or you can be like the rich man who said,I have kept all of the law.Jesus told him then sell all that you have and give it to the poor and then follow me.The rich man walked away and turned down his salvation.
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Steadfast
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If you reject Christ, you have rejected the covenant, because the covenant is in His Blood.
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IHS
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It,s okay I understand,because the problem you are having is with Gods Word not mine.Remember its the TRUTH that will set you free.Don,t be decieved. Satan is a LIAR!!!
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Saint_Gemma
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The Church does not accept the Old Testament covenant as being currently salvific. This does not mean that people who follow modern-day Judaism cannot be saved, however. It simply means that people who are religiously Jewish who are saved are saved in spite of their Judaism, not because of it. This is true of followers of any non-Catholic religion.
On the other hand, if someone knows that Jesus is the messiah, and that He established the Catholic Church, and he or she does not become a Catholic, he or she will not go to Heaven.
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