Why Marijuana in itself is NOT sinful

[John92]

The pot user? Excuse me, I find it very insulting you make such a hasty generalization.

As pointed out before, where does the CCC mention Caffeine is an exception?

Let’s review 2290 again. Notice how the words: “every kind of excess” are italicized. Okay they are not here, but if you look at them in the book they should be. Don’t you think that means something right there? When it says, “every kind of excess” it is not just speaking for alcohol, tobacco, and medicine, but EVERY kind of excess. Whether it be flying, racing, collecting cards, running, golf. If I become so interested in collecting coins, that it comes in-between my relationship with God and starts to harm others than it must in excess. I mean the list could go on. The CCC even gives an example sentence right there. If it didn’t mean everything, it would have stated: The virtue of temperance disposes us to avoid the following items in excess. Or something to that affect.
Here. let’s take MJ out the equation here. What if I use, which I do, Kava Kava to help me feel relaxed from time to time, is it a sin?

You’re still really honestly grasping at straws. I referred to you as “the pot-user” because I couldn’t remember your screenname, fwiw, no offense meant

Yes the catechism refers to excess. Does it logically follow then that no things are sinful in and of themselves? Because it says alcohol and tobacco can be used to excess, does that mean that everything can be done in moderation? No, not at all. I’m sure you’re aware of the sexual teachings of the Church. Do you think a “little” Onanism isn’t that bad?

I don’t know anything about kava kava so I can’t answer to that. Does it cause just a little “relaxation”, in the way that many herbal teas do, or does it actually cause something of a high?

Honestly there’s no use arguing this any further. I’ve given you reference after reference. I love smoking pot, I love it a LOT, you have no idea how much I miss it, and I know that it doesn’t have many real negative effects (or at least doesn’t appear to), but guess what? You have to give it up to follow Christ.

“He who is not willing to take up his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.”

God bless.

 

[stringbeanduck]

I am undecided on that issue. Bit in this country it is illegal, and we are bound to obey legitimate authority.

Okay that’s what I was arguing about. That MJ considering all the facts bad and good should be at worst and best be morally neutral. Do you understand that legality can not make a substance or action intrinsically evil or good?

 

[John92]

Okay that’s what I was arguing about. That MJ considering all the facts bad and good should be at worst and best be morally neutral. Do you understand that legality can not make a substance or action intrinsically evil or good?

It doesn’t make the substance itself good or evil but disobeying the government itself would be evil (whether venial or mortal would be debatable, I think).

More importantly the Church herself forbids it, as I’ve shown you.

 

[stringbeanduck]

You’re still really honestly grasping at straws. I referred to you as “the pot-user” because I couldn’t remember your screenname, fwiw, no offense meant

Yes the catechism refers to excess. Does it logically follow then that no things are sinful in and of themselves? Because it says alcohol and tobacco can be used to excess, does that mean that everything can be done in moderation? No, not at all. I’m sure you’re aware of the sexual teachings of the Church. Do you think a “little” Onanism isn’t that bad?

I don’t know anything about kava kava so I can’t answer to that. Does it cause just a little “relaxation”, in the way that many herbal teas do, or does it actually cause something of a high?

Honestly there’s no use arguing this any further. I’ve given you reference after reference. I love smoking pot, I love it a LOT, you have no idea how much I miss it, and I know that it doesn’t have many real negative effects (or at least doesn’t appear to), but guess what? You have to give it up to follow Christ.

“He who is not willing to take up his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.”

God bless.

Grasping at straws? So if you can’t remember somebody’s name you make one up? Sounds pretty rude IMO. Doesn’t sound like Christ like behavior to me…

You’re obviously not an plant expert.
Kava is plant that produces a relaxing sedative mood. It makes the user not 100% in touch with reality, but slightly drowsy. One wakes up refreshed the next morning and yes it’s legal.

My point with drug above is that taking a little MJ for relaxing is no different than taking a little kava, alcohol, passion flower(it’s another legal plant sedative), coca tea, coffee, ect… In some places like the USA it isn’t accepted, but just because it isn’t excepted doesn’t make it’s use immoral. Unless of course you argue the point of legality. All these are drugs, but there is reason why they all can’t be classified under 2291.

Pope John Paul II only has an opinion against it. He obviously doesn’t have an opinion against getting jolt off coca leaf tea. You still haven’t proven that the use MJ even in country where it’s legal is still immoral. Even your buddy, he’s mine too, CWBetts can’t decide whether it’s use in a legal country is immoral. I’ve sited just as many sources as you have, some of them the same.

I carry a pretty big cross on my back bud thank you very much. One of them is being the only religious person in the family. Every time I explain something is immoral or go into depth about why we as Catholic believe XYZ, the response is that I will just end up being a priest. Don’t know about you, but I live in a world that is surrounded by people who think the only ones that take the faith serious down to the T, are those who are called to religious vocations.

 

[John92]

Grasping at straws? So if you can’t remember somebody’s name you make one up? Sounds pretty rude IMO. Doesn’t sound like Christ like behavior to me…

You’re obviously not an plant expert.
Kava is plant that produces a relaxing sedative mood. It makes the user not 100% in touch with reality, but slightly drowsy. One wakes up refreshed the next morning and yes it’s legal.

My point with drug above is that taking a little MJ for relaxing is no different than taking a little kava, alcohol, passion flower(it’s another legal plant sedative), coca tea, coffee, ect… In some places like the USA it isn’t accepted, but just because it isn’t excepted doesn’t make it’s use immoral. Unless of course you argue the point of legality. All these are drugs, but there is reason why they all can’t be classified under 2291.

Pope John Paul II only has an opinion against it. He obviously doesn’t have an opinion against getting jolt off coca leaf tea. You still haven’t proven that the use MJ even in country where it’s legal is still immoral. Even your buddy, he’s mine too, CWBetts can’t decide whether it’s use in a legal country is immoral. I’ve sited just as many sources as you have, some of them the same.

I carry a pretty big cross on my back bud thank you very much. One of them is being the only religious person in the family. Every time I explain something is immoral or go into depth about why we as Catholic believe XYZ, the response is that I will just end up being a priest. Don’t know about you, but I live in a world that is surrounded by people who think the only ones that take the faith serious down to the T, are those who are called to religious vocations.

It wasn’t my intention to be rude to you. It was the middle of the night. Cut me some slack.

I never claimed to be a plant expert. I’m not a religious expert either. I can tell you what I know the Catholic Church to teach, though.

If the effects of pot are just like kava or a low amount of alcohol you’re either deluding yourself or buying some very poor quality pot The effects are much more dramatic than that, the feeling of even a small amount greater than just some “relaxation”.

You have not offered reasons that marijuana doesn’t fall under 2291. The meaning of “drugs” is clear. You’re acting like a Pharisee, perverting the clear meaning of the text to better suit your self.

As a Catholic what the Pope says is more than just an “opinion” Anything he says is a manifestation of the ordinary magisterium, and we are obligated to obey it. As for coca tea, coca tea is extremely mild, it doesn’t provide any sort of high, it really just feels like a small cup of coffee.

We all carry crosses, I wasn’t trying to say anything like that. You haven’t really cited any sources, you’re just restating the same arguments over and over.

It is VERY clear that “drugs” would be “psychoactive substances besides alcohol, caffeine, and tobacco”. You still haven’t adequately addressed that because you can’t. Like I said, stop being Pharisaical, stop trying to mutilate the clear meaning. Even IF you’re self-serving interpretation were correct, there’s still the issue of the Pope, which you write off as “just his opinion”.

 

[NoWhereMan]

Another example of moral relativism. Because some do not uphold the law does not free us from our responsibility. Plus the statement is just a cynical generalization with very little truth to it.

Poll some people & ask them about how they feel about all these civil laws. Most of them are made to take dollars in fines out of our pockets

 

[mojoe]

We can think what we want of cannabis being illegal - in other words, does it do more harm to send users to jail, or to legalize it (which would almost certainly cause a rise in usage in this country, inb4amsterdam). Pope John Paul II certainly opposed legalization, so I’m tempted to defer to his opinion.

Religions with cannabis as a sacrament? Sorry but I don’t respect them much. I hope I don’t sound mean (and I probably do but I don’t mean to), but it just seems like a bunch of hippies who want to worship their drug of choice.

Pot makes you feel great, better than great, unbelievably great, not all high and whacked-out but just in a damn good mood, and it has few side effects. That’s why it’s so dangerous. We’re not supposed to feel like that. It’s not natural. And, of course, even if you honestly can’t see any reason for the Church’s teaching on pot, we’re obligated to obey her. It’s a sacrifice to God, to quit using it, and your reward will be in Heaven.

Pope John Paul II stated that there was no difference between cannabis and heroin. I beg to differ. I was a junior drug counselor for nearly 3 years, and I have seen the difference. As far as legalization goes, in Holland there was no significant rise when they switched. Holland also has much lower rates of cannabis users than the U.S. especially among teens (I think you might need to fact check). In the U.S, in the 1970’s many states across our great nation decriminalized, and again, no significant rise. We did however, use much needed tax dollars more appropriately in a time we sorely needed it, and not on overzealous law enforcement busting non violent users. Sounds familiar to these days.

Cannabis was, at one point, akin to witchcraft in some eras of the catholic church, and therefore punishable by death and worse. Many people throughout history have used mind altering substances as sacraments, not abuse. I am part Mesqalero Indian on my mothers side, while I dont practice their religion, I respect it. They use peyote. I have met some of them, and they are NOT hippies. It seems popular in this culture to see cannabis, or any “drug” users as hippies, when this is absolutely not true.

 

[CWBetts]

Poll some people & ask them about how they feel about all these civil laws. Most of them are made to take dollars in fines out of our pockets

Whether people like the laws or not is irrelevant. We are to obey all laws that do not go directly against our faith. To willfully disobey legitimate authority is a violation of the 4th commandment. I don’t make this stuff up. There are laws I do not agree with. But until those laws are overturned, I have no choice in the matter. Civil disobedience is only acceptable to achieve a greater good (such as in the civil rights era)

 

[mojoe]

Whether people like the laws or not is irrelevant. We are to obey all laws that do not go directly against our faith. To willfully disobey legitimate authority is a violation of the 4th commandment. I don’t make this stuff up. There are laws I do not agree with. But until those laws are overturned, I have no choice in the matter. Civil disobedience is only acceptable to achieve a greater good (such as in the civil rights era)

My grandmother used to “buy” farm fresh milk, which recently has become illegal to sell recently here in WI. This law is being resisted though, there is a farm where you buy a sugar packet for $3 and “steal” milk from the barn. My grandmother is an extremely devout catholic. Is she sinning?

 

[CWBetts]

My grandmother used to “buy” farm fresh milk, which recently has become illegal to sell recently here in WI. This law is being resisted though, there is a farm where you buy a sugar packet for $3 and “steal” milk from the barn. My grandmother is an extremely devout catholic. Is she sinning?

I don’t know. I don’t have the language of the law in front of me. But it would seem no. The $3 is for the packet. The milk is given away with purchase.

 

[mojoe]

I don’t know. I don’t have the language of the law in front of me. But it would seem no. The $3 is for the packet. The milk is given away with purchase.

I DO know, and they are not allowed to give it out.

 

[CWBetts]

I DO know, and they are not allowed to give it out.

Then the right thing to do is work within the proper channels to get the law changed

 

[mojoe]

Then the right thing to do is work within the proper channels to get the law changed

So we should let the harmless, well intentioned community farm possibly shut down until we can change this bureaucratic debacle? I’m sorry, but I have to disagree. I stand up for what I believe in.

 

[pzona]

Then the right thing to do is work within the proper channels to get the law changed

These sound like the words of someone who has never dealt with the legal system.

 

[CWBetts]

These sound like the words of someone who has never dealt with the legal system.

I have dealt with the legal system. You sound like someone who doesn’t want to be bothered with civic responsibility.

 

[cdodge]

Smoking marijuana is a sin, just like underaged drinking is a sin. When a law exists that is itself morally neutral, as Catholics we are bound to obey it. The catechism and Scripture are clear on these points. You need to speak with a priest on this issue - there is clearly more to your illegal drug problem than “relaxing,” just like someone drinking to get drunk has an underlying problem. You also need to evaluate your conscience and go to confession.

 

[pzona]

I have dealt with the legal system. You sound like someone who doesn’t want to be bothered with civic responsibility.

Civic responsibility, and this is my personal interpretation, doesn’t include following laws like not being allowed to buy a certain type of milk. Maybe if I knew more about the reasoning behind the law I would change my mind, but as of right now, I could care less who buys farm fresh milk. It certainly isn’t harming anyone physically (assuming the milk isn’t spoiled when it’s sold), and I think I can safely say it isn’t harming the economy. As sacrilegious as this is, I don’t care what the Bible says about following the law. I follow most laws because they keep society organized. Just out of curiosity, CWBetts, do you ever jaywalk?

 

[Feanor2]

Just how does one use marijuana in moderation? Smoke a joint and you get high. Drink a (one) beer and you’re not drunk. The problem isn’t the use of either it’s getting drunk/high. One you can use in moderation the other you can’t. And I know the pot heads out there will tell me it’s not true…sorry, seen it first hand too many times to buy that line.

My 2 cents.

M

The monks of Chimay monastery in Belgium. one of their large bottles of beer each day. One of their brews has 8 percent alc. and the other has 10 percent. On feast days they drink 2 of them. I guarantee that they are affected by alc. on those days so being intoxicated on occasion is not a sin.

BTW your use of the term “pot head” clearly shows you bias.

 

[mojoe]

Smoking marijuana is a sin, just like underaged drinking is a sin. When a law exists that is itself morally neutral, as Catholics we are bound to obey it. The catechism and Scripture are clear on these points. You need to speak with a priest on this issue - there is clearly more to your illegal drug problem than “relaxing,” just like someone drinking to get drunk has an underlying problem. You also need to evaluate your conscience and go to confession.

What if it is a law that many do not believe to be morally neutral?

 

[CWBetts]

What if it is a law that many do not believe to be morally neutral?

The Church is not a democracy. We are called to be good citizens, and that includes obeying the law, or working within the system to get bad laws changed. This mwans alot of work on your part to prove that the law is bad.