"Why Moral Absolutes Matter." A Catholic's Explanation

[Freddy]

Freddy:

Then kept rejecting more and more until I’d reached something of a deist stage. And after a few years of contemplating that found that even that wasn’t required.

What do you mean when you say you found that “even that wasn’t required”? Required for what?

The universe didn’t need a supernatural explanation.

 

[JGD]

You’ve got a lot of company nowadays. For me it’s sad; so many who abandon/reject God for atheist scientists as their source of truth. Understandable however considering what’s been fed for so many years thru schools and media, starting even with cartoons for the very young.

However, science cannot provide moral truth, which is the topic of this thread, and I don’t want to derail that.

 

[JGD]

JGD:

I ask God “why” all the time.

But I’ve had loads of why"s:
Why is premarital sex wrong?

That prompts the question:.Why does God think it’s wrong? And I presume that you mean under any and all circumstances.

LOL ----because I went to bed last night thinking “why did I go and mention contraception and sex” - he’ll probably want to know my reasoning for that, and Lord, I really don’t want to get into all that."

It was a long process so many years ago. I don’t even recall the particular steps along the way. To the best of my recollection it started with contemplating the sexual union between a man and woman – why? what would be the primary purpose? what the most meaningful in the whole order of things? at some point being struck by the awesomeness in having a role in bringing a new human being into existence, the enormity of it. Once that hit home, I knew what the most amazing purpose of the sexual union was; and, if that was deliberately knocked out of the picture, the union became distorted or anemic, so to speak. (I’m not denying the other purpose/s, just they don’t compare in value.) Anyway, once that fundamental base was in place, the why’s of premarital sex and contraception - why they’re wrong - easily fell into place.

 

[stpurl]

How do you know He doesn’t?

Remember, it is not about “this earth and physical existence’ only; it is about this earth and our forming ourselves here for eternal life.

With the liturgical season we are reading a lot of St. Peter’s letters as well as St. Paul, and Acts, and the emphasis is quite distinctly on, along with trying to live with loving our neighbors as ourselves, on ‘setting our hearts on the higher gifts’ and noting that we will face suffering on earth but ‘what can separate us from the love of God?:”

While I haven’t suffered through the kind of horrific disease and hunger that too many people have had to deal with, I have a long-term illness that is sometimes quite painful, and as a younger single mother with choices of my children’s father we had more than a few meals from food pantries to help eke things out. To be honest, I could and should do more to help the poor (as could 99.9% of us reading, I dare say), and I’m not claiming that God deliberately allows suffering for some to build character in others. I don’t know WHY people suffer, but I know that just stewing about it or blaming God and despairing of goodness isn’t the way to go. Assuming that I’m here on the earth to help as much as possible, doing so, and encouraging others to do so, and much prayer and TRUST that God will alleviate suffering, however that comes (gifts from us, or graces from Him and bliss in eternity, or a combination of such and more) to my mind is a way to truly love God AND love my neighbor.

 

[AlNg]

How do you know He doesn’t?

Because they are still suffering, and even in worse condition than before. Take a look at the latest pandemic. Some Catholic countries were hit the hardest, whereas there were Muslim countries that were not hit as bad.

You’ve got a lot of company nowadays. For me it’s sad; so many who abandon/reject God for atheist scientists as their source of truth.

True. The number of atheists seems to be increasing. Father Spitzer has a good site reaching out to atheists and others:

Magis Center | Science, Reason, and Faith

The universe didn’t need a supernatural explanation.

The question keeps on popping up. Why is there something rather than nothing. Why is there consciousness and what does it all mean?

 

[JGD]

stpurl:

How do you know He doesn’t?

Because they are still suffering, and even in worse condition than before. Take a look at the latest pandemic. Some Catholic countries were hit the hardest, whereas there were Muslim countries that were not hit as bad.

You say “Catholic countries” - formerly Catholic would be more accurate. Here’s the site I go to for the coronavirus numbers - can click on any of the following 3 breakdowns - World/Countries/United States.

When you check out where the highest deaths per million occur, you’ll see it’s nations that were once Catholic or Christian. WERE - not anymore tho. They/we are the reason for the expression “post Christian” era.

 

[JGD]

JGD:

What made you doubt belief in God?

Some atheists will point to the question of evil and suffering in the world. God is all perfect, all loving, all powerful and all knowing. And yet there are helpless children, who through no fault of their own, have to suffer through horrific diseases and hunger. Why doesn’t God help them at least a little bit?

It’s not as tho’ any of those people wouldn’t have died otherwise. We all have to die - it’s just a matter of how and when. And that’s where God’s love is shown, for He knows the best time for us to die - the best time for our eternal existence.

God didn’t bring death into our world.
Wisdom 1:13-14 For God made not death, neither hath he pleasure in the destruction of the living.

Satan did that when our first parents chose him over God - chose to believe his words rather than God’s. (Genesis 3)
Wisdom 2:23-24 For God created man incorruptible, and to the image of his own likeness he made him. But by the envy of the devil, death came into the world:

As regards the young dying, the book of Wisdom has a beautiful passage on that also:
Wisdom 4:7-15 …
*11 He was taken away lest wickedness should alter his understanding, or deceit beguile his soul. … *
13 Being made perfect in a short space, he fulfilled a long time. …
14 For his soul pleased God: therefore he hastened to bring him out of the midst of iniquities: but the people see this, and understand not, nor lay up such things in their hearts: …

Psalms 115:15(6) precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of his saints.

 

[stpurl]

So your criterion for God ‘helping’ people only recognizes that He ‘physically’ alleviate suffering on this earth.

Well that’s your problem then!

 

[AlNg]

It’s not as tho’ any of those people wouldn’t have died otherwise.

Dying peacefully and dying with horrible pain and suffering are two different things.

 

[AlNg]

So your criterion for God ‘helping’ people only recognizes that He ‘physically’ alleviate suffering on this earth.

i did not say so. I said it was one way to help children suffering from horrible pain and starvation.

 

[stpurl]

But you didn’t address anything else but that. You didn’t address anything else; especially you didn’t address that God might be working through others, or that He might be working and you not ‘seeing’ it. And especially you didn’t address that life on earth is always temporary. Again, if we were only created for ‘life on earth’ then surely any problems with pain would seem unfairly inflicted on people randomly. If we are created for something more, then you have no idea why God might allow a physical (thus, always ‘temporary’) pain or any kind of emotional or physical pain (ditto) on earth for any individual. You don’t know their story. You might assume that the pain is a punishment; what if it is nothing of the kind in God’s eyes? After all He sees everything perfectly. And what if the rewards for suffering on earth are so incredible in heaven that people gladly accept temporal pain? (Heck, some people accept physical pain, like intensive workouts, on earth because they get physical ‘rewards’ although even those won’t stop physical death, and there are cases of people ‘exercising to death’). So it’s not an unknown concept. I am NOT of course offering this as THE reason, or even attributing it to God. I’m not God. I’m just saying that if the possibility exists for an ultimate outcome (eternity) where pain can be understood in a way that even if we can’t fully understand or accept, there might be a reason that does bring ‘good’ from it then we can’t just assume that all pain is nothing but evil, there is nothing but that pain, etc.

 

[AlNg]

You might assume that the pain is a punishment

I don’t see why an all loving and all knowing God would punish a young child 3 or 4 years old.

 

[JGD]

Who’s to say whether they’d die peacefully. Some might think dying of the flu would be more peaceful than what they’re going thru.

 

[stpurl]

You pulled out one sentence and then, when I hadn’t even offered it as anything but part of a hypothetical which I further addressed, you made a ‘strawman’ comment? You didn’t even bother with anything else?

I had thought you might be interested in actually considering the whole problem of pain (I can recommend C.S. Lewis’ The Problem of Pain” highly). Until then. . .

 

[christismylord]

I don’t see why an all loving and all knowing God would punish a young child 3 or 4 years old.

“The righteous perish, and no one takes it to heart; the devout are taken away, and no one understands that the righteous are taken away to be spared from evil.“ (Isaiah 57:1)

He is saving them from more evil, surely to be closer to Him is what they desire in their spirits, imagine their joy at being released from their suffering and coming into the presence of God. (I also believe I heard somewhere that if you suffer more on earth righteously, you may suffer less in purgatory)

 

[Freddy]

AlNg:

I don’t see why an all loving and all knowing God would punish a young child 3 or 4 years old.

“The righteous perish, and no one takes it to heart; the devout are taken away, and no one understands that the righteous are taken away to be spared from evil.“ (Isaiah 57:1)

He is saving them from more evil…

And sometimes people decide to do it themselves:

“Police: Mother shot kids to ‘save them from the evils of the world’” Police: Mother shot kids to ‘save them from the evils of the world’

 

[christismylord]

Those people should not act as God. Only God has the right to give and take away life.

 

[Freddy]

Those people should not act as God. Only God has the right to give and take away life.

I think he can ask others to do it for him as well. Am I right?

 

[AlNg]

You pulled out one sentence

That was the part that I disagreed with.

 

[christismylord]

God can do whatever He wants. And it will always be the perfect and righteous thing, because He is a Holy God.