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RebeccaJ
Guest
It’s a TV show. They have a costume dept.
Same for depictions of Catholic Mass, Priest vestments and all.
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Same for depictions of Catholic Mass, Priest vestments and all.
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dianaiad
Guest
…and kicking the catechumens out would ensure that they were not spies?
I don’t think so.
As for whether we have this problem today…oh, c’mon. True, we don’t have the government threatening to kill us, haven’t had for, oh, a century. Mind you, that’s not a very long time in terms of Catholic history though. We HAVE had a bunch of people threatening us with all sorts of things, including death (Prop 8 protesters have been rather impressive, for instance, not to mention inventive…) and let’s face it, Rebecca, making fun of Catholic services is very politically incorrect.
One simply does not DO that, y’see.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
Yes, it is called discernment. The catechumen is discerning God’s will, the people initiating them into the Church are discerning their readiness.
This is a historical fact, Diana.
Speaking of TV, the drama is out and about. No one is trying to kill Mormons, wholesale, fed to lions, crucified, beheaded, tortured to death, boiled, eyes removed, etc.
You don’t get around much if you don’t believe that anyone is making fun of Mass.
I watched part of “Eyes Wide Shut” the other night. There is a scene in there where people are dressed in very Catholic-like vestments. One person is incensing a circle of women, using a Catholic liturgical boat, who are on their knees, wearing nothing but g-strings and masks. The rest of the vested crowd were chanting, very Gregorian style chants and a man was accompanying them on an organ.
When you have a depiction like that of your temple ceremony, in a major motion picture, we’ll talk.
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zaffiroborant
Guest
Well making fun of anything these days is politically incorrect. And as to the making fun of Catholic Mass (services) I can’t say I’ve seen anything specifically mocking Mass but Catholicism in general I’ve seen made fun of quite a bit. Monty Python and SNL come to mind.
And from all I’ve read ( I don’t have HBO and don’t really watch soap opera type stuff anyway) the HBO depiction was not mocking. Even over on the MAAD board they have no complaints about the treatment the temple ceremonies received, most say it was respectful. The only complaint I’ve seen is that it was even done. Most were offended that it was portrayed at all due to how sacred the ceremonies are to LDS. Maybe now LDS might get a glimpse of how offended Non-LDS are when you baptize their deceased family members.
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dianaiad
Guest
About what? About how I feel that the situation you are describing is just as disrespectful of your beliefs as this ‘big love’ thing is of ours? About how I will never watch “Eyes Wide Shut” (and why were YOU watching it???) in large part BECAUSE of the way the movie mocks your religion?
What in the world makes you think that I would approve of that?
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RebeccaJ
Guest
Did I say you approved. You said, no on makes fun of Catholic Mass, with a smarmy ya see.
Do ya see?
I have watched Eyes Wide Shut before, when I was an atheist. When I knew zero about Mass. When nudity and for that matter porn bothered me not at all.
It was on, because I am a film freak and I like Kubrick. That scene, whoa, a whole new meaning once you understand Mass. It’s when I switched it to another film, got bored, eventually wound up with EWTN running in the background as I read. As I said, I watched part of it the other night.
I try Diana, to live a Christian life. Less than two years ago I was an atheist. I have been some dark places in my life. I work at who I am, and with the help of God, I die to a new life. Lent has really helped me in this desire.
Eyes Wide Shut, is still a Kubrick masterpiece, in terms of film making. Not in terms of who I want to be.
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dianaiad
Guest
Actually, no. It is still perfectly acceptable to make fun of Mormons, conservatives and fat people.
Since I am all three, I get a triple whammy. In fact, the only thing I am that is NOT acceptable to mock is…female. However, I’m an old, fat, Mormon conservative female, and that sort of negates the ‘woman’ part.
As for proxy baptism…
Not the same thing AT all.
…and I still don’t get it. As a Catholic you not only believe that the dead have the ability to think and act…you actively use that belief when you pray to them and ask them to intercede for you, or to get involved in earthly miracles on your behalf.
So why don’t you believe that they also have the absolute right and ability to handle one last knock at their doors? That’s what proxy baptism is, and that’s ALL it is in terms of effect that it has on you, or your ancestors. We don’t mock your beliefs; we are actually honoring them in that we believe, as you obviously do, that there is not only life after death, but that those who die keep their individual abilities to make decisions for themselves. We believe that what we do may or may not affect your ancestors–but it doesn’t affect you, and it doesn’t affect your ancestors if they don’t want it to. We don’t portray it on signs, we don’t put it in TV shows.
We don’t go ‘nya nya’ at you, in other words, and wipe your most precious rites and observations in the mud of some stupid TV show. We don’t hold your beliefs up to ridicule.
This…Rebecca mentioned a scene in “Eyes Wide Shut” that offended her…and she had every right to be so offended. That wasn’t offering a respectful chance to learn something. It was, as was this thing in Big Love, an obvious and egregious mockery.
…and please do not tell me how ‘respectfully’ it was portrayed. If those people knew enough about it to portray it at all accurately, they would also know VERY well that there is no way on earth to portray it ‘respectfully’ outside Temple walls any more than it is respectful to portray a mass amid an orgy.
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dianaiad
Guest
Well then, what did you mean when you said that when I saw something like this that we ‘would talk?’
the thing is, Rebecca, stuff like that about us is all over the place. Just because Stanley Kubric did a number on the Catholics doesn’t mean that other, less famous, people haven’t done similar numbers on Mormons…and the Temple ceremonies. They have, and frequently.
…and yes, I am aware of this disconnect that Kubric fans (and fans of film in general) have to sometimes make in order to appreciate excellence in film making apart from the content; every film student has to view “Birth of a Nation,” for instance, as well as “Battleship Potemkin.”
The bottom line, however, is this: if you were offended by 'Eyes Wide Shut" then that shouldn’t make you wonder why Mormons are offended by “Big Love.” It should, on the contrary, make you understand why.
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RebeccaJ
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then we’ll talk…not to be taken literally.
Catholic Mass is portrayed in film all the time. Like in the Godfather, I like that film, lots of Catholicisms all over the place. Dogma, amusing, some Catholics offended. I wasn’t. Portraying Mass as a black mass, does. Googly moogly “black mass”, it is a purposeful blasphemy, usually associated to the LeVey school of satanism.
I don’t believe Kubrick was purposefully trying to offend Catholics. How he used that scene, is quite astounding…in film making terms. Brilliant, really. Black mass though…not my thing.
Big Love didn’t do up a black endowment. They portrayed your ceremony as it is. I didn’t see that they meant it as a blasphemy against your beliefs. I do understand if you did.
Mormons watch and like DaVinci Code. You don’t understand why Catholics are upset over that one.
I’m not upset over DaVinci Code, in the sense of, I understand it is fiction. It is a concern that people believe fiction as fact.Religious ritual makes for an interesting story. It nearly writes a scene all by itself. You may not like it. But in a country where free speech is the law (a good law), that’s how it is.
All you can do, is pray for those who persecute you.
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zaffiroborant
Guest
But the result is the same people are offended. You can’t understand why someone would be offended, you will not even try to see it from the other side or acknowledge that they are offended. Well others have a tough time understanding why you’re so offended by the portrayal. Like I said I didn’t see the episode but many of those who spoke of it on MAAD said it was done respectfully. There were more complaints about the Court of Love scene.
As to Eyes Wide Shut it’s not something I would watch but then I disapprove of alot of stuff on the Disney Channel. I get that from years of my dad’s rants on the stupidity of TV and that was before all the sex and violence you see now.
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mfinnegan
Guest
Dianiad-
thanks
- Do you believe you will become a goddess eventually?
thanks
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zerinus
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sweetnay
Guest
Thanks for your honesty.
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sweetnay
Guest
Dianaid? ParkerD? Do you agree?
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LDSGuy
Guest
all LDS believe in exaltation.
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sweetnay
Guest
And thank you for your honesty, it was getting hard to pin down exactly what LDS beliefs really were in these forums, there seems to be some differences and I was hoping it wasn’t a case of watering things down for us non-LDS folks.
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sweetnay
Guest
Dianaid-
You mentioned you were looking for actual quotes from church leaders re: the teaching of becoming a god; does this mean you yourself do not believe you can become one? And that the teachings of all your past prophets on this subject were wrong?
Please clarify your position. Thanks
You mentioned you were looking for actual quotes from church leaders re: the teaching of becoming a god; does this mean you yourself do not believe you can become one? And that the teachings of all your past prophets on this subject were wrong?
Please clarify your position. Thanks
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RebeccaJ
Guest
Do you believe God the Father was once a man, who lived on another planet, under another god?
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Scriptorian
Guest
This question is somewhat specious. It is mockery veiled by curiosity–almost like the HBO episode. Do you really want to know for your own edification? Or do you simply want to validate your distaste for everything “Mormon”?
Oh, well. Since you asked the question…
Here is the answer: We do not (or should not) speak of God in such irreverent terms. If Jesus Christ, the Savior of the World, felt the need to humble himself and kneel before the God of Heaven, how much more respectful should we be of his goodness and glory?
That being said, let’s talk about what we agree upon. God is our father. Jesus was very clear on that point when after he was resurrected he spoke to Mary Magdalene:
As the Son of God, Jesus Christ is an heir to God’s throne and kingdom. Paul explained as much to the Hebrews:
We, too, as children of God, may be heirs of God also, and joint-heirs with Christ (if we suffer with him) …and you can blame Paul for this heretical doctrine:
Ya see
, Catholics and Mormons agree that we are children of God.God is the King of the universe. That would make us princes and princesses to the King–and engender in us the potential to be Kings and Queens ourselves. This may seem like a made-up story to tell youngsters, but Saint John did not seem to have a problem with it:
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sweetnay
Guest
Uh, was that a really round-about yes?This question is somewhat specious. It is mockery veiled by curiosity–almost like the HBO episode. Do you really want to know for your own edification? Or do you simply want to validate your distaste for everything “Mormon”?
Oh, well. Since you asked the question…
Here is the answer: We do not (or should not) speak of God in such irreverent terms. If Jesus Christ, the Savior of the World, felt the need to humble himself and kneel before the God of Heaven, how much more respectful should we be of his goodness and glory?
That being said, let’s talk about what we agree upon. God is our father. Jesus was very clear on that point when after he was resurrected he spoke to Mary Magdalene:
As the Son of God, Jesus Christ is an heir to God’s throne and kingdom. Paul explained as much to the Hebrews:
We, too, as children of God, may be heirs of God also, and joint-heirs with Christ (if we suffer with him) …and you can blame Paul for this heretical doctrine:
Ya see
God is the King of the universe. That would make us princes and princesses to the King–and engender in us the potential to be Kings and Queens ourselves. This may seem like a made-up story to tell youngsters, but Saint John did not seem to have a problem with it:
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