Why Muslims should celebrate Christmas

[dronald]

Except Jesus predicted His own death and even claimed to have been dead following the passages you provided.

I don’t know where you’re getting your beliefs from, but I’m curious who’s teaching you these things.

Honestly, just for my own curiosity; where are you from? What are you studying in matters of Theology? What websites are you reading if any?

I have no clue how you’re drawing these conclusions and I don’t think they are actual Islamic beliefs. We can’t draw our own conclusions and ignore every piece of evidence that Jesus proclaimed to have died.

 

[dzheremi]

Honestly, friends, I think we’re all doing ourselves a disservice by continuing this polemical discussion regarding Christian vs. Muslim views of Jesus in a thread that asked an actual question in the OP. The question has been answered from Muslim and Christian perspectives and all this stuff about which religion’s view of Jesus is right is irrelevant. The take-home point should be that Muslims do not celebrate Christmas because of certain theological objections to it within their religion. This is the beginning and end of the discussion, is it not?

 

[Shia_Muslim]

1. Should Christians celebrate the birth of Moses?
2. We don’t believe in the Trinity.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

We Muslim Believe that Jesus did not Die God took him alive and he is coming back on the day of judgement.

Because the mightiest Miracle in whole Bible which Jesus give from his own mouth was the sign of Jonah.

Mathew 12:38
Then some of the scribes and Pharisees said to him, “Teacher, we wish to see a sign from you.” He said to them in reply, "An evil and unfaithful generation seeks a sign, but no sign will be given it except the sign of Jonah the prophet. For Just as Jonah was 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of the whale so will the son of man be 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of the Earth.

now if we analyze this according to Christians Jesus fails if he dies and I don’t think Jesus is lying. In Quran it says “it is not what it seems to them.”

It is not a miracle if Jesus dies a Miracle is a happening that we don’t expect to happen.

Mark 14:50
And they all left him (Jesus) and fled. ( Disciples of Jesus )

Disciples of Jesus had heard that the master “Jesus” was hang on the cross. All the knowledge they have is on hear say! that now he is dead and buried for 3 days. That’s why Disciples are frightened when they see Jesus. After his alleged crucifiction Jesus return after 3 days.

Jesus give proof by himself that he did not die and want to assure them that he is not what they are thinking.

Luke 24:36
36 While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.”

37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. 38 He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”

40 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. 41 And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” 42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 43 and he took it and ate it in their presence

Why he ate to show them that he is not a spirit not a spooke.

The gospels directly say that he died. To say otherwise is to misrepresent what the gospels actually say. Jesus himself says that he was to die and rise again in fulfillment of the scripture. You stopped quoting Luke when it was convenient for you.

Luke 24:45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46 He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things. 49 I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”

 

[dzheremi]

1. Should Christians celebrate the birth of Moses?
2. We don’t believe in the Trinity.

I understand and agree with your point, but just for your own edification and the edification of everyone in this thread, it bears noting that the Coptic Orthodox Church commemorates the departure of Moses the Prophet on Tout 8/September 18, so in that way we do celebrate Moses. Here is the entry on his life and departure from the Coptic Synaxarium, which is read from during every liturgy:

*On this day also, the righteous Moses, the head of the prophets, departed. He labored on behalf of the people of God till his death and delivered up himself for them. It was he who worked miracles and wonders in Egypt and in the Red Sea. When he became of age, refused to be called the son of the daughter of Pharaoh.

She brought him up when his parents left him on the banks of the river because they were afraid of Pharaoh who had commanded the slaughter of all male children of the Hebrews. When the daughter of Pharaoh found him by the river, she took him and reared him as her own son. When he had completed his 40 years, he saw an Egyptian slaying one of the Hebrews and straightaway he avenged the Hebrew and slew the Egyptian. The next day he saw two of the Hebrews fighting and he attempted to make peace between them. He, who was in the wrong, told him, "Do you want to slay me as you did slay the Egyptian yesterday?" Because of this, Moses fled to the land of Midian where he married and begot two sons. (Exodus 2)

When he was 80 years old, a fire appeared to him in a bush, but the bush was not consumed. When he moved close to behold this great sight, the Lord spoke to him from the bush and commanded him to bring out the people of Israel from the land of Egypt.

God worked at his hands the ten plagues upon the Egyptians, the first was the river which turned into blood and the last was the slaughter of the first born of the Egyptians. (Exodus 7-12) He brought the people out, and he divided the Red Sea and made them pass through it, and then he brought back the water over their enemies. He brought down for them "Manna" in the desert for forty years, and he made the water flow from a rock, and in spite of that they grumbled against him and many times they wanted to stone him. But he was long suffering with them, and he prayed to God for them, and because he loved them greatly, he said to God, "If You will not forgive this people their transgression, then blot out my name from Your book." (Exodus 31:32) The Book testified that he spoke with God five hundred and seventy times as a man talks with his friend, and he was called the mouthpiece of God. When Moses came down from Mt. Sinai, after being with God, with the two tables of testimony in his hands, his face was shining. The children of Israel were afraid to come near him, so he put a veil on his face when he came near to talk to them. (Ex. 34:29-35)

When he was 120 years old, God commanded him to commit the leadership of the people to Joshua, the son of Nun, his disciple. (Deuteronomy 34:9) Moses called him and commanded him with the commands of God and His Law, and informed Joshua that he was the one to bring the people into the promised land. After Moses had made the Tabernacle of Witness and everything which was in it as God had commanded him, he died in the mountain. He was buried there, and God hid his body so the children of Israel would not find it and worship it because the Book testifies there never rose up a prophet in Israel as Moses. When Satan wished to reveal the body, Michael the archangel rebuked him, and prevented him from doing so as St. Jude testifies in his epistle. (Verse 9)

His prayers be with us. Amen.*

 

[AspiringSoul]

(1) Relate to them the story of Noah. Behold! he said to his people: "O my people, if it be hard on your (mind) that I should stay (with you) and commemorate the signs of Allah,- yet I put my trust in Allah. Get ye then an agreement about your plan and among your partners, so your plan be on to you dark and dubious. Then pass your sentence on me, and give me no respite.
( سورة يونس , Yunus, Chapter #10, Verse #71)

My mosque holds an event (no specific date on the calender) commemorating this event once a year. It doesn’t have a specific date on the calender however. It’s usually quite lowkey as it’s for youngsters mainly. The Imam and some Sheikhs will attend, recite the connected verses but they’ll talk about his life from an islamic perspective and also talk about his second coming.

In Islam, all the major events are to be celebrated and the noble birth of Isa AS is no different to that. It’s not just A birthday, it’s a blessed and miraculous event which the Quran has certainly commemorated. Along with his birth, the birth of John the baptist is also commemorated, together.

Theological differences aside…Christmas was not supposed to the ‘day of his birth’ but a day marked out to commemorate his birth. Why December 25th? perhaps it was already a popular date and so Christians decided to use this day to mark out a Christian event?
I don’t see anything wrong with this personally…but culturally it’s a European thing, not asian (the majority of muslims are asian).

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Theological differences aside…Christmas was not supposed to the ‘day of his birth’ but a day marked out to commemorate his birth. Why December 25th? perhaps it was already a popular date and so Christians decided to use this day to mark out a Christian event?
I don’t see anything wrong with this personally…but culturally it’s a European thing, not asian (the majority of muslims are asian).

It wasn’t european Christians that only agreed that Christ was born on December the 25th, there were eastern fathers that also believed this along with a few other dates.

 

[AspiringSoul]

It wasn’t european Christians that only agreed that Christ was born on December the 25th, there were eastern fathers that also believed this along with a few other dates.

give me the info please?
it doesn’t mention December 25th anywhere in the new testament. That should be enough for you to doubt December 25th being the specific date of his birth.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

give me the info please?
it doesn’t mention December 25th anywhere in the new testament. That should be enough for you to doubt December 25th being the specific date of his birth.

If I believed in things only found in the new testament I would have to dismiss the new testament itself. No, Solo Scriptura might be fine for some but not for me. As far as some sources go i have nothing specific except a few names.

Hyppolytus in his commentary on Daniel specifically mentions “For the first advent of our Lord in the flesh, when he was born in Bethlehem, was December 25th, Wednesday, while Augustus was in his forty-second year, but from Adam, five thousand and five hundred years. He suffered in the thirty-third year, March 25th, Friday, the eighteenth year of Tiberius Caesar, while Rufus and Roubellion were Consuls.”

And Hyppolytus was an eastern father, although there are apparently discrepencies within the textual tradition surrounding what has survived of this writing. Still, despite it being primarily western in tradition that in no way invalidates it. I hear people claiming December the 25th was first of all a pagan day and I would like to see the evidence this. I have had people laugh at the mere suggestion of asking for a source which shows before Christians worshipped on this day the advent of the Lord, that it was the day of some other God yet no evidence is ever provided funnily enough. People do the same thing with easter but thats another subject.

 

[True_Faith50]

The gospels directly say that he died. To say otherwise is to misrepresent what the gospels actually say. Jesus himself says that he was to die and rise again in fulfillment of the scripture. You stopped quoting Luke when it was convenient for you.

Luke 24:45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46 He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things. 49 I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”

Mathew 19:16
And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?” 17And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

Jesus Teaches that salvation only comes through keeping of the commandments!

But “Paul” nails the law and the commandments to the cross. Paul Claims that salvation can only be obtained through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Colossians2:14
having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

If Jesus was not resurrected from the dead than there can be no salvation in christianity!

Corinthians15:14
and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain.

Now please explain me who is RIGHT? Jesus or Paul?
You want to follow Jesus or Paul?

 

[dronald]

Mathew 19:16
And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?” 17And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

Keep reading…

 

[True_Faith50]

Keep reading…

???

 

[dronald]

???

When you read a discussion in the Bible, you need to read it and quote it to the very end. Then discuss each part of said discussion.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Mathew 19:16
And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?” 17And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

Jesus Teaches that salvation only comes through keeping of the commandments!

But “Paul” nails the law and the commandments to the cross. Paul Claims that salvation can only be obtained through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Colossians2:14
having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

If Jesus was not resurrected from the dead than there can be no salvation in christianity!

Corinthians15:14
and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain.

Now please explain me who is RIGHT? Jesus or Paul?
You want to follow Jesus or Paul?

Paul didn’t say this now did he.

“This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.” Mathew 26:28

Paul was with the apostles, he was affirmed by the apostles Christ had chosen. I trust Paul and his brave witness for the church because I cannot demonize him like the muslims do. He was a true apostle of the lord Jesus Christ. He was completely in line with what Christ said. You make the mistake of thinking one verse captures salvation at the expense of ignoring other verses. I gave you Luke saying that Jesus himself said he died and rose the third day according to the scriptures! Paul says the exact same thing in Corinthians. Jesus goes on to explain from the scriptures how everything had been prophecied about him and this event in particular.

All the gospels tell us he gave up the ghost, none say he survived. In order to have this interpretation of yours, you must ignore the verses which contradict your understanding and that to me simply irresponsible. Mathew, Mark Luke and John were not Muslims but Christians and its important to remember that.

 

[AspiringSoul]

Mathew 19:16
And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?” 17And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

Jesus Teaches that salvation only comes through keeping of the commandments!

But “Paul” nails the law and the commandments to the cross. Paul Claims that salvation can only be obtained through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Colossians2:14
having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

If Jesus was not resurrected from the dead than there can be no salvation in christianity!

Corinthians15:14
and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain.

Now please explain me who is RIGHT? Jesus or Paul?
You want to follow Jesus or Paul?

Brother, I’m a muslim however I don’t understand why you would talk about this subject (ie the crucifixion) in a thread about Christmas/The birth of Jesus AS.

However let me explain my view on this matter.

What was the ‘serpent’ Jesus was referring to here?

John 3:13-15
13 No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. 14 As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15 so that whoever* believes will in Him have eternal life.***

Notice Paul was talking about Faith btw.

The serpent represents not just Satan…but satan within us. It’s our carnal/flesh nature which compells us to Duniya.
You would agree Duniya is temporary?
You would also agree that The Pure heart is a mirror of the Absolute? (this is an islamic concept). How could the pure heart experience death which it’s very nature is to seek the Absolute? Think about this.

It’s due to our carnal attachments in duniya we experience ‘death’ in the Grave (Barzakh, also known as Hades/Sheol). There is a belief amongst muslims that a pure soul lives. Even though the body is buried in the grave, the soul is completely free/alive. The martyrs are the same. Why? Martyrs die for Allah, their carnal/flesh attachments to duniya are sacrificed for the sake of Allah. Then ask yourself again what ‘death’ Really means here, who suffers death?

This is the Islamic method here.
when Prophets are shown their meaning from the Preserved Tablet; similarly, the forms of the prayer (al-salât) which entail one bowing, two prostrations, specific numbers [of supplications], and specific Quranic utterances that are recited, at various lengths and times upon sunrise, noon, and sunset, have a specific effect in stilling the dragon (al-tinnûn) that nestles in the human breast and breeds manyheaded snakes ( equal to the number of his traits ) biting and snapping at him in the grave.
Its harm extends to the soul, as indicated by the Prophet’s saying: ‘A dragon with ninetynine heads is empowered over the disbeliever in the latter’s grave, doing such and such etc.’ There are many such dragons in the human make-up, and nothing subdues them except divinely prescribed obligations. Those obligations are the deliverance from peril, and they are also equal to the number of his bad traits. “And none knows the hosts of your Lord save Him” (74:31).O people of permissiveness! It shall be said to you on the Day of Resurrection: “What has brought you to this burning? They will answer: We were not of those who prayed?” (74:42-43).

Prophet Abraham AS had a powerful symbol and a reminder for his children. The circumcision. It was a symbol of the ‘cutting of the flesh’. A physical reminder of our duties to struggle against our flesh nature.

However despite this symbol the jewish people were extremely sinful. The symbol of circumcision had lost it’s meaning, people who were ‘outwardly’ circumcised but inwardly the complete opposite.

The symbol of the serpent which Moses held up, why did it have a healing effect on the Israelites? It’s because it symbolised the death of the serpent within.

What do you think Jesus meant here
*
Matthew 10:38
And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.

Matthew 16:24
Discipleship Is Costly ] Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.*

Do you think Jesus was telling people ‘you must literally pick up a physical cross and be crucified, literally, and only then you will be my disciple’? of course not but what he meant was you must give up all your attachments to duniya…and only then you could be his disciple.
This is what Christianity is supposed to be. Jesus didn’t merely preach this way of life. He embodied it. So naturally the symbol of the crucifixion, is meant as a symbol of the death of the carnal soul.

Paul was not telling people to do whatever they like and just ‘have faith’ in Jesus. What he meant was, the entire concept of the resurrection/return to life…requires faith.

Now I want you to picture this scenario
Someone is shot to death whist he was preaching Islam.

The people responsible would boast ‘we shot him’ ‘we killed him’
In reality, it only appeared like they shot and killed him, in reality he is alive.

with Jesus, it goes deeper because normally by ‘alive’ in this situation we mean he is alive spiritually but physicall dead.

 

[AspiringSoul]

Acts 2
“Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know— this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power. For David says of Him,

‘I saw the Lord always in my presence;
For He is at my right hand, so that I will not be shaken.
‘Therefore my heart was glad and my tongue exulted;
Moreover my flesh also will live in hope;
Because You will not abandon my soul to Hades,
Nor allow Your Holy One to undergo decay.
‘You have made known to me the ways of life;
You will make me full of gladness with Your presence.’

“Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. And so, because he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath to seat one of his descendants on his throne, he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that He was neither abandoned to Hades, nor did His flesh suffer decay. This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses. Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear. For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says:

‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”’

Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified.”
*

Peter on one hand acknowledged the crucifixion but he also says

*** it was impossible for him to be held in its power. **

oe death had no ‘hold on him’.

So from the higher perspective Jesus did not die and even his body didn’t die as it was impossible to kill him.

On the otherhand he very clearly did experience the crucifixion and as a muslim I have no problem with this. Furthermore the Quranic verse is a little deeper in that it says

'They said in Boast ‘we killed Christ Jesus’

ask yourself who said in boast? See the Quranic verse was responding to the specific type of people who believe Jesus is DEAD and finished. Not the Christians.*

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Me thinks you are reading into the text what you want to see and not what it says. Luke is widely regarded as teh author of acts, there is no dispute about this, they both wrote the same thing. Luke tells us that Jesus died by his own words in the last chapter of the gospel of Luke. Peter himself literally a sentence before the one you focus on says Jesus Christ died.

“you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.”

What does peter mean by raising from the dead?

“But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death.”

You have to ignore all other parts of the gospel and acts in order to hold your opinion. There is no reason why I should ignore the entire point of the gospel according to Luke and accept your reading of a single sentence of Peter’s which is a complete bastardization of the text.

Jesus died according to the new testament, muslim attempts to airbrush quotes which are speaking about ressurection (death could not hold him, means that he was dead and that death could not hold Jesus Christ) will convince no one but the muslim, not the mass of people whom throughout history have studied the New testament both at a Scholarly level and lay level.

 

[AspiringSoul]

Me thinks you are reading into the text what you want to see and not what it says. Luke is widely regarded as teh author of acts, there is no dispute about this, they both wrote the same thing. Luke tells us that Jesus died by his own words in the last chapter of the gospel of Luke. Peter himself literally a sentence before the one you focus on says Jesus Christ died.

“you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.”

What does peter mean by raising from the dead?

“But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death.”

You have to ignore all other parts of the gospel and acts in order to hold your opinion. There is no reason why I should ignore the entire point of the gospel according to Luke and accept your reading of a single sentence of Peter’s which is a complete bastardization of the text.

Jesus died according to the new testament, muslim attempts to airbrush quotes which are speaking about ressurection (death could not hold him, means that he was dead and that death could not hold Jesus Christ) will convince no one but the muslim, not the mass of people whom throughout history have studied the New testament both at a Scholarly level and lay level.

I think you pretty much didn’t read what I wrote since i never disputed the crucifixion but actually pointed out that the ‘death’ was of the carnal/flesh nature and not true death…

from an islamic perspective, death is not the physical one, ie martyrs are alive in islam. The ‘death’ is only one of the body and the carnal soul.

I also pointed out how both perspectives are true from their own viewpoint and that actually the only wrong answer is the one held by the very people who 'said in boast ‘we killed Christ Jesus’. Look closer at what the Quran says and you’ll find it’s actually refuting what the Sadducee’s used to believe since they didn’t believe in the resurrection and believed all people whether good or bad were in Sheol.

 

[AspiringSoul]

I’m not trying to present a new age/hippy type of perspective here either. You’ve got to understand that the prophecies in the old testament give both sides ie they clearly say he will die but they also say things like

‘he will see the light of life’

So which angle do you look at this from? Jesus who preached immortality of the soul but the mortality of the flesh? from the perspective of the flesh, he died, but from the perspective of the immortal soul, how could he die? the very fact he submitted to the Divine Will means it’s impossible for him to die.

Question: Do you believe in texts like Wisdom of Solomon? I actually wanted to understand the Daniel prophecies and ended up finding the book of Maccabees on the catholic bible website. This was a few years ago and then I noticed there were some other texts i’d never read. Imagine my surprise when I read Wisdom of Solomon (first 3 chapters) and I realised there’s a more detailed explanation of what the Quran hinted at ie the ‘appearance of death’.

Quran says ‘they neither killed him nor crucified him but so it was made to appear to them’.

common muslim interpretation is to say ‘this means there was no crucifixion or he didn’t die on the cross’ whereas my own perspective based on actual study of the bible is that the flesh died and was resurrected. Another key point here is that Jesus is not a common man but the ‘Word of God’ how can the Word of God be killed? you see my point?

Try understanding my point as i’m not blindly quoting scripture and i’m well aware of All the prophecies.

Also just to add there is another text, you might not believe in it, but it does predate islam. The Gnostic Apocolypse of Peter…in which it is also confirmed the ‘stony vessel’(ie the body) is put to death but the immortal soul, lives.