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Waivering
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I just tried to post. I think I may have added on to some one else’s post. This Form is almost as difficult as the Catholic Religion to figure out.
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Cathoholic
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Waivering. You stated:
Considering James 5:16 . . . .
JAMES 5:16 16 Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed.
. . . . . WHO do you think James is talking about and . . . .
. . . . WHO do you confess your sins to?
a. I don’t confess my sins to anyone (certainly not “one another”)
b. I confess my sins to myself (definitely not “one another”)
c. I confess my sins directly to God and ONLY to God (and not “one another”)
d. I confess my sins to another person (just like James 5:16 tells me to) but beforehand I confess them to God when I examine my conscience.
If you answer a, b, or c, then you are not obeying James 5:16. If you answered “d”, we can then have the discussion about WHO the “one another” that James is referring to.
OK.
Considering James 5:16 . . . .
JAMES 5:16 16 Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed.
. . . . . WHO do you think James is talking about and . . . .
. . . . WHO do you confess your sins to?
a. I don’t confess my sins to anyone (certainly not “one another”)
b. I confess my sins to myself (definitely not “one another”)
c. I confess my sins directly to God and ONLY to God (and not “one another”)
d. I confess my sins to another person (just like James 5:16 tells me to) but beforehand I confess them to God when I examine my conscience.
If you answer a, b, or c, then you are not obeying James 5:16. If you answered “d”, we can then have the discussion about WHO the “one another” that James is referring to.
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Waivering
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There is no clear direction on who to confess to by James. Some say you need to confess to who you sinned against and only they can forgive. All sins are against Jesus/God therefore you confess directly to him. The Apostles are teachers/followers of Jesus and were given permission to forgive sins. This forgiveness was to come in ways of teachings not one on one sin by sin, how many times etc. etc. Even Jesus on earth didn’t offer forgiveness in this fashion. John says Jesus said those who believe in me even though dead will live. I think he means all Christians not just Catholics.
My question is a simple yes or no - Do Catholics believe that only they will go to heaven because they confess sins to a Priest?
My question is a simple yes or no - Do Catholics believe that only they will go to heaven because they confess sins to a Priest?
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Waivering
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Waivering
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I thought the Apostles where followers of Jesus and teachers. The authority they were granted was to forgive sins in their teachings not to listen to each sin by sin by a person and another person and another person Jesus didn’t even forgive sins in this fashion. Sins are / were forgiven in the Free Grace. Actual confessing to another human in detail of a sin may open the door to them by the Devil in their thoughts. I understand that certain people need a human to talk to be become humble and to actually believe they are forgiven, to relieve their own guilt. The Ministers, Reverends and Priests need to be there for those as are Physiatrists. Other people can show true remorse, regret and sorrow. They can truly repent and become the will and way of God without another humans assistance. Their faith in Jesus and in themselves just COULD be that great you know. Yet Catholics say they still can’t get into heaven because they didn’t confess to a Priest? Therefore, only Catholics that do so will go to heaven? What about all the other Christians? Why did Jesus “allow” so many other faiths? Have we actually forgotten the true purpose of faith and following the way of God?
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Miriam1947
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tafan
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Wavering, I do not know why you cannot get an answer to your question, the Church’s teaching is quite clear: if a person is whole-heartedly sorry, in Catholic terminology that would be called “perfect contrition” and one one is forgiven. But Jesus gave the Church the power to forgive sins. The Church has decided the exact form the sacrament of confession takes.
Confession to the Church is certainly a more biblical concept than confessing directly to God. The latter is one of the best examples of Protestant “tradition”, as there is very little support for it in the Bible.
I would add this: although most non-Catholics profess a belief in asking God for forgiveness directly, it is a practice that is done mostly by Catholics. Protestants, when they are being honest, will admit that they rarely do so, or at best in a general way. The concept if a private examination of concience and a accompanying act if contrition is a most Catholic practice. The irony is that good Catholic spiritual practices include exactly what Protestants claim to believe in, yet seldom do.
It is regular confession to a priest which cultivates this practice. Not going to confession, simply makes one desensitized to sin.
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steve_b
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In Jas 5:14, what is the context of confessing one’s sins, one to another? It’s in the context of calling in the πρεσβυτέρους = presbuteros = priest catholic.com/quickquestions/where-in-the-new-testament-are-priests-mentioned
Re: Catholic, please scroll down to links re: the Catholic Church for some primary source documents forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11547152&postcount=74
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Always a good idea. But what if you can’t?
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That needs qualification.
Jesus already answered that.
[John20:23 (Douay-Rheims Bible, John Chapter 20)
Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.
Do you believe Jesus here?
Now confessing to one who can’t forgive you your sins , because that person has no authority to do so, WOULD be nuts. I agree with you
For example
The protestant world regardless of stripe, knows they can’t forgive another person’s sins. They have no validity to do so.
So regarding your comment “Confessing to some person to whom we have not sinned and expecting forgiveness doesn’t make sense” in the case of Protestantism, that is true… It is NOT the case however, for Catholics in the Catholic Church confessing to a priest.
W:
The pharisees said the same to Jesus when He forgave sins. They were saying to Jesus, only God can forgive sins and you aren’t God.
sheesh!here’s a bible passage you won’t find protestants quoting.
1 Jn 5:
16 If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God**(“http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 jn 5&version=RSVCE#fen-RSVCE-34798b”)] will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.
It begs the question, how does one get rid of mortal sin then?
W:
Now you know differently
W:
That’s a blueprint for division on steroids. Which is protestantism.
Jn 17: (all emphasis mine)
20 “I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, 21* that they may all be one; even as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory which you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one***, ***23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you have sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.”
Would Jesus in the 16th century or any century divide His own Church, the Catholic Church, having made this prayer here? NOT A CHANCE!
That’s why division from the Catholic Church is condemned in scripture as are those who do it and remain in division.
Romans 16:17-20 , Galatians 5:19-21 , Division διχοστασίας dichostasia= dissension / division / sedition (whichever one’s translation uses) it’s the same word in both Rom 16:17. And Gal 5:19… so we know that sin carries a terrible consequence for that soul who is divided from the Church
That’s where the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) gets this teaching. [846 (Catechism of the Catholic Church - Paragraph # 846)
W:
Look at the following …(not in any order and certainly not complete) ?
Adoptionism.
Montanism
Pelagianism
Anomeanism.
Apollinarianism.
Arianism.
Donatism.
Gnosticism.
Protestantism
What do they have in common?
- They are all Christians…
- They are all heresies.
[Titus 3:10-12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Titus+3:10-12&version=RSVCE) (the Greek word for factious there is αἱρετικός = heretic )
And you’ve already seen the passages above that condemn division.
W:
That’s a summary statement. Believe means do / obey everything Jesus teaches. It’s not some intellectual assent.
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Amandil
Guest
And you begin to wonder what “God” they are going directly to. Is it THE God, or is it the “god” that they created after their own image and likeness?What strikes me is that we hear endless bleating about not having to confess to a priest and about Jesus being our one Mediator - then, in the same breath, those same folks appear to side-step Jesus and go directly to God.
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steve_b
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You added to the text what is NOT in the text. Read it again [John 20:21-23 (Douay-Rheims Bible, John Chapter 20)
As for the comment “Jesus didn’t even forgive sins in this fashion” that’s not an appropriate comment. He’s God.
the apostles don’t have the ability to read minds, so when He gave them the power to forgive sins AND/OR not forgive sins, it presupposes oral confession.
W:
a validly ordained priest like the apostles were, know what sins to forgive or not forgive based on an informed confession on the part of the sinner? [John 20:21-23 (Douay-Rheims Bible, John Chapter 20)
and [James 5:13-16 (Douay-Rheims Bible, James Chapter 5)
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Jesus already established His Church and His sacraments.
W:
Don’t confuse “allow” and " liscense".
Before there was any law, Sin was already in the world. When God created Adam and Eve, Satan was already in the world. While Satan was allowed by God to be here, No one has or had the liscense to sin.
Just look at the example of the 1st sin
- God gives a command Genesis 3:3 A & E know what is NOT allowed.
- the serpent shows up and persuades A & E to disobey God Genesis 3:4
- A & E listened to Satan, and we know what happened
One could say because Satan was in the world division was in the world already. But no One had liscense to divide from what God established. Got that?
Protestants divided from the Catholic Church, which is an act of the flesh, that scripture condemns.
[Romans 16:17-20 (Douay-Rheims Bible, Romans Chapter 16)** , **[Galatians 5:19-21 (Douay-Rheims Bible, Galatians Chapter 5) , Division διχοστασίας dichostasia= dissension / division / sedition whichever word one’s translation uses, is the same Greek word in both Rom 16:17. And Gal 5:19… so we know that those who do it and remain in it “won’t inherit heaven”. Those aren’t my words. They are Paul’s. And more specifically it is Jesus through the HS inspiring Paul to teach that. [John 16:12-15 (Douay-Rheims Bible, John Chapter 16) . So the one who judges the living and the dead, is telling us in advance how He will judge division from His Church
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Waivering
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Cathoholic
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Waivering. You said,
“NOT confess your sins to one another”
or do you think it means in SOME SENSE you are to
“confess your sins to one another”?
Once you answer this question, we can take it to the next level of depth.
So do you think “Confess your sins to one another” means to
“NOT confess your sins to one another”
or do you think it means in SOME SENSE you are to
“confess your sins to one another”?
Once you answer this question, we can take it to the next level of depth.
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Waivering
Guest
Catholic in quotes (“Catholic”) means to me I am wavering away from this faith. I was baptized Catholic as an infant, even went to a Catholic school. Through the years I have seen much change in the way Catholics do things such as turning the alter around, saying mass in English in lieu of Latin, Priest and nuns manner of dress, placing the Communion host in YOUR own hand, all drinking wine from the same cup, shaking your neighbors hand or hugging in church to show peace.
When adding to this , when I got married in the late 60’s the church insisted on a certain amount of money to perform the ceremony. They felt $150 wasn’t enough because of the flowers I had put in the church and the bridesmaid attending. They INSISTED ON $250. (Both amounts a lot of money when you were making only $3,500 a year back then). The church also refused to send a Priest to give my father last rights until my mother caught up on the offertory envelopes. My parents were very poor. The church posted on the walls who was behind in donations. I don’t consider a church who has to embarrass you into giving them what you can not afford very Christian… If poverty is so acceptable then why is the Catholic faith one of the wealthiest? I have yet to see a humble church.
Now, when looking to this forum for answers in laymen terms, not anyone can give me a yes or no answer as to whether Catholics think they are the only ones who will get into heaven because of their methods of teaching and/or mass. I know they think that the Catholic church is the only true religion and there is non else. So I am assuming that Catholics DO believe THEY are the only ones who will go to heaven, but are just to “afraid” to say it or put it in print. I don’t think anywhere in the bible it states that as fact. If it does, Who wrote that version of the bible? Another Catholic? This belief is not a good Christian belief. I know I certainly do not want to think that way.
I guess this forum only confirms that I am a Christian but I am more Evangelists rather then Catholic. You may have very well lost another one.
When adding to this , when I got married in the late 60’s the church insisted on a certain amount of money to perform the ceremony. They felt $150 wasn’t enough because of the flowers I had put in the church and the bridesmaid attending. They INSISTED ON $250. (Both amounts a lot of money when you were making only $3,500 a year back then). The church also refused to send a Priest to give my father last rights until my mother caught up on the offertory envelopes. My parents were very poor. The church posted on the walls who was behind in donations. I don’t consider a church who has to embarrass you into giving them what you can not afford very Christian… If poverty is so acceptable then why is the Catholic faith one of the wealthiest? I have yet to see a humble church.
Now, when looking to this forum for answers in laymen terms, not anyone can give me a yes or no answer as to whether Catholics think they are the only ones who will get into heaven because of their methods of teaching and/or mass. I know they think that the Catholic church is the only true religion and there is non else. So I am assuming that Catholics DO believe THEY are the only ones who will go to heaven, but are just to “afraid” to say it or put it in print. I don’t think anywhere in the bible it states that as fact. If it does, Who wrote that version of the bible? Another Catholic? This belief is not a good Christian belief. I know I certainly do not want to think that way.
I guess this forum only confirms that I am a Christian but I am more Evangelists rather then Catholic. You may have very well lost another one.
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Waivering
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Waivering
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So are you saying that Jesus found the Catholic Faith to be first and the only fait. All other faiths are divided from Catholics therefore, are not recognized by God?
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tafan
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Hh:confuseUh
Wavering, the Church’s teaching in this matter is quite clear ( as with your previous “whole-heartedly sorry” question, see post #25) : Catholics do not think they are the only ones who get into heaven.
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Amandil
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But how does alterations or variations in practice amount you “waivering” or deciding that the Church isn’t the Body of Christ?
Is this “the Church” or bad behavior of the local parish council?
It looks to me like you’re not making any distinctions but rather just swiping everything with the broadest brush possible. Humility doesn’t necessarily mean impoverished, it means having a state of mind which is dependent on God.
That’s not at all what the Church teaches. The Church teaches that if anyone is saved, they are saved by Christ. And since the Christ and the Church are inseparable, the Church participates in that ministry of salvation with Christ, either through the sacraments, or through her prayers.
“Waivering”, all your doing is building a strawman and attacking that. You’re assuming a lot of things which simply are not true and are not making any distinctions about anything.
It seems as if your trying to fabricate superficial reasons to abandon the Church, rather than looking at it the Faith honestly and trying to discern whether the Church is true or not. There is a big difference between the truth of the Faith and the fact that many people in that Faith don’t necessarily act at all times according to that standard.
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Waivering
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steve_b
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well said.okay, okay, being serious, we don’t just make this stuff up as we go along.
Here’s a short answer giving proof for the Catholic Church, while doing a major contraction of history due to space limits / post… What’s important is seeing direct, not supposed continuity directly from Jesus and His apostles from the beginning.
Note: all links are operational. please open them and read them. And don’t stop reading
Acts 9:31 So the church throughout all ἐκκλησία,καθ, , ,Judea and Galilee and Sama’ria…"
iow the Church ] throughout all kata holos] is the Kataholos Church = Catholic ChurchThe English word catholic is a transliteration of the Greek katholikos which is a compound word from kata, which means according to, and holos, which means whole.
- St Ignatius Bp of Antioch, from ~69 a.d. - ~107 a.d., ordained by apostles, direct disciple of St John the apostle, called the Church the Catholic Church of which schismatics won’t be going to heaven
- St Polycarp, Bp Smyrna, disciple of St John called the Church the “Catholic Church”
- Muratorian canon
- Irenaeus ~180 a.d. wrote “Against Heresies” called the Church the “Catholic Church” Bk 1 [Chapter 10 (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103110.htm) v 3], and also Irenaeus who was taught by Polycarp, teaches all must agree with Rome [Bk 3, , v 2-3]
[*]Cyprian~250 a.d.
[*]The Nicene Creed, 325 a.d., it’s a matter of faith to believe in the “One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church”
[*]Augustine ~395 There are many other things that most justly keep me in her * bosom. . . . The succession of priests keeps me, beginning from the very seat of the Apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after His resurrection, gave it in charge to feed His sheep, down to the present episcopate. And so, lastly, does the name itself of Catholic, which, not without reason, amid so many heresies, the Church has thus retained; so that, though all heretics wish to be called Catholics, yet when a stranger asks where the Catholic Church meets, no heretic will venture to point to his own chapel or house. (ch 5 v6)
[*]etc
The same Church Pope Francis is over today, 266th successor to St Peter.
Re: division from the Catholic Church
Romans 16:17-20 , Galatians 5:19-21 , Division διχοστασίας dichostasia = dissension / sedition same word in both Rom 16:17. And Gal 5:19… You see the consequences for that sin
Did you notice Ignatius letter re: schismatics?*
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Waivering
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Thank you Amandil.
Your comments have great merit. It may very well be that I may have been brought up Catholic by poor non church going parents, and really am not a Catholic now as an elder adult. Maybe I am just looking for ways to “return” but am finding other religions easier. My belief in God, Jesus, Mary, prayer and repentance is strong. I have read much about confessing to Priests or to confess only to God. I’ll just have to work through this on my own. What matters is how you behaved in this life and whether you have amended your ways with sincerity.
Thanks for your words
Your comments have great merit. It may very well be that I may have been brought up Catholic by poor non church going parents, and really am not a Catholic now as an elder adult. Maybe I am just looking for ways to “return” but am finding other religions easier. My belief in God, Jesus, Mary, prayer and repentance is strong. I have read much about confessing to Priests or to confess only to God. I’ll just have to work through this on my own. What matters is how you behaved in this life and whether you have amended your ways with sincerity.
Thanks for your words
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