Why must Catholics confess their sins to a priest?

[Wretched_Man]

Wait, so you are saying that when Christ says, “whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven, whose sins you retain, they are retained” that He didn’t actually mean what He said?

No where else in scripture is this narrow view taught…scripture must interpret scripture and context is the key.

In John 20:23 the words “have been forgiven” is the single Greek word aphiami. It is the perfect passive. The perfect tense is “I have been.” The pluperfect is “I had been.” The perfect tense designates an action that occurs in the past and continues into the present, i.e., “I have been eating.” The disciples were not doing the forgiving, but pronouncing the sins that “have been” forgiven by God.

Of course only God forgives sins. But SCripture plainly shows us that He chose to do it through the ministry of the Priesthood. Here’s an article about it that shows this from the OT and the NT: daves-ahumbleservant.blogspot.com/2013/06/confession-to-priest-or-going-straight.html]
You don’t understand the history of the priesthood and or who the priesthood is today…but the church is the priesthood, the body of Christ who is the true church.
The church was never the RCC, the true universal church is his body, which is comprised of born again, as in John 3, spirit filled[Rom 8:9 KJV] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his…believers of Jesus
A kingdom of priests are what we are…
[1Pe 2:5 KJV] Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
[1Pe 2:9 KJV] But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

The bible speaks of deacons, elders, bishops, pastors, prophets, teachers, pastors, but Priests are not mentioned in the new testament church…except where I mentioned above.
The mention of them during Jesus day was only ever in relation and association to Pharisees and Sadducee’s and or wickedness and their motives to have Jesus crucified…they were never in a good light…

How does Christ’s granitng the authority on earth to men to forgive (or retain) sins imply that a man can replace Christ’s sacrifice? I don’t understand how that follows. I clearly see this ministry coming from Christ Himself, made possible only BECAUSE of Christ’s sacrifice. I don’t see where it could replace it.

Even the scribes and pharisee’s new only God could forgive sin…never heard mention in scripture of the priests in Jesus day doing what the priests of the RCC are doing today.
I have been to third world countries and I have read history of the RCC, I have seen the authority the RCC has imparted to Priests and how they have strong armed the lay person and used manipulative and intimidating means of power, enforced upon the priests, by the RCC over the people. My friend…not a very good history.

I think you just answered your own question. Christ told His Apostles that the Holy Spirit would guide them in ALL Truth (Jn 16:13). Surely you are not trying to limit the Holy Spirit in what He can reveal to His Priests in the Sacrament of Reconciliation given to us by Christ Himself?

I am not limiting the work of the Holy Spirit, it’s His work to bring believers to the place of repentance where we come to God alone for mercy and forgiveness of sins, when we sin but I am now ruling out the unbiblical presumption you just made about God revealing anything to priests. Remember what I said…as a christian, we have all been given the ministry of reconciliation…I don’t need a priest or a pastor to represent me before God according toe the word of God and the sacrifice of Jesus…it is finished"
[2Cr 5:18 KJV] And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
[2Cr 5:19 KJV] To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Amen! And He, CHRIST, has chosen to do this through the ministry of His Priesthood through the Sacrament of Reconciliation that Scripture tells us He gave us. You seem to be seeing a false dichotomy…and “either/or”, where there is not one. Christ establishing Reconciliation and the forgiveness (or retention) of sins through His Priests does not diminish Christ’s Work on the cross…it stems from it and fully brings us to that sacrifice.

Only in RCC tradition…this belief system of yours is not biblical

 

[Wretched_Man]

I’ve read it, along with the Scriptures. It seems to me that you don’t actually know what the Church teaches about confession. You are under teh mistaken notion that the Priest forgives sin by his own power, right? This is not the case, as I have clarified already. Are you ignoring what I have explained? Are you actually interested in understanding what Catholics really believe, or do you just want to misrepresent us?

To be honest, I went to catholic church for 5 years…I know and have read what it teaches , I understand the history…but I ask you , do you give more credence to what the RCC teaches or what Jesus teaches and the entirety of scripture…or just little inserts of scripture…

I did, at least twice now. But you are trying to interpret the Church as thinking that the Priest does this of his own accord. I have explained that this isn’t the case. You don’t seem to be interested in hearing what Catholics actually believe though…you only want to misrepresent our beliefs, right?

I know what you believe…I am sharing why I don’t take your stance on what it is you believe…

What verse are you talking about? And why do you believe that being told to confess our sins to someone (even to Christ) means we should NOT go to a Priest?

Because it’s not biblical, but feel free to do what RCC traditions instructs…

Nowhere does Scripture say that we should go to God ALONE and to ONLY God. SCripture shows us over and over that we should confess to each other and that Christ has given MEN the authority on earth to fogive sins. Christ’s very own Words EXPLICITLY tell us this (passages provided at least twice already). Why are you rejecting Christ’s Words? Why do you want me to reject Christ’s Words?

Yes we are to confess our sins one to another, but nowhere does it say to the priests…or for that matter, the deacon, pastor, elder, bishop, prophet, apostle…
Show me where it says, over and over again, as you have alluded we are to confess to priests and He has given authority to men to forgive sins
[1Ti 2:5 NKJV] For [there is] one God and one Mediator between God and men, [the] Man Christ Jesus,
[Hbr 4:14 KJV] Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast [our] profession.
[Hbr 4:15 KJV] For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin.
[1Jo 2:1 NKJV] My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins,** we have an Advocate** with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
[1Jo 1:9 NKJV] If we confess our sins,(to Jesus) He is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[bmonk]

Hello B Monk.

I have a problem with the “only” in your reply. If a person were to ONLY go to the Sacrament of Confession when he or she committed a mortal sin he or she was sure was mortal, then how exactly would they gain the grace necessary for the struggle against all of their sins? I mean if a person never confessed any venial sins how can God remove the punishment due them? All sin is wrong doing. That is Scripture. I think those who encourage persons to ONLY go to Confession when guilty of mortal sin are minimalizing their practice and think others should join them in dismissing venial sins. If one hasn’t any mortal sins in a while, isn’t it time to at least start working on the venial stuff too? I mean after all ONLY those who are perfect get into Heaven.

We as Catholics are called to perfection, not merely to be good enough to get out of Hell.

I think the door to the Confessional is the gate of Heaven and those who seek it see the abiding wisdom of using it.

Minimalism. It isn’t wise.

Glenda

I agree. That is only when we NEED to go to confession. However, the sacraments are not about minimalism, but about abundance of grace. All of us who are sinners, of whatever grace, can benefit from the sacraments, including reconciliation.

But there are other ways to be forgiven, and to grow in grace. As long as we are still in a state of grace (no mortal sins burdening us), good works have merit for us, and can draw us away from the harm that sin, even venial sin causes. It is only mortal sin that breaks that communion with God so that we cannot come back on our own.

I mean if a person never confessed any venial sins how can God remove the punishment due them?

Through prayer, through reconciliation with those in our lives, through the liturgies of the Church, through giving alms, through fasting, and so on. This is not to say that the process might be smoother and more effective when we go to the sacrament , but it is not, strictly speaking, necessary. Only helpful.

 

[Wretched_Man]

I’m confused. Are you saying that the only authoritative Scripture that we have is found in the letters of Peter and of Paul? That, when we quote John 20:23, that’s not a reasonable place to find the clear teaching, in Jesus’ own words, that He gave the proxy of his power to forgive sins to the apostles themselves?

Show me anywhere outside John 20:23…where it is taught that priests have been given power to forgive sins, or anyone for that matter .
Thanks

Are you open to any other possibilities…In John 20:23 the words “have been forgiven” is the single Greek word aphiami. It is the perfect passive. The perfect tense is “I have been.” The pluperfect is “I had been.” The perfect tense designates an action that occurs in the past and continues into the present, i.e., “I have been eating.” The disciples were not doing the forgiving, but pronouncing the sins that “have been” forgiven by God

 

[bmonk]

To be honest, I went to catholic church for 5 years…I know and have read what it teaches , I understand the history…but I ask you , do you give more credence to what the RCC teaches or what Jesus teaches and the entirety of scripture…or just little inserts of scripture…

Actually, I find that the Catholic Church does follow the entirety of Scripture, so the dichotomy you offer is a false comparison. I give credence to all that Jesus teaches, and to the whole of Scripture–and so I trust the Church that Jesus established, and promised to keep faithful through the work of the Holy Spirit.

Yes we are to confess our sins one to another, but nowhere does it say to the priests…or for that matter, the deacon, pastor, elder, bishop, prophet, apostle…
Show me where it says, over and over again, as you have alluded we are to confess to priests and He has given authority to men to forgive sins
[1Ti 2:5 NKJV] For [there is] one God and one Mediator between God and men, [the] Man Christ Jesus,
[Hbr 4:14 KJV] Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast [our] profession.
[Hbr 4:15 KJV] For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin.
[1Jo 2:1 NKJV] My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins,** we have an Advocate** with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
[1Jo 1:9 NKJV] If we confess our sins,(to Jesus) He is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

A great high priest implies other priests, who are not high priests, who share in the work of the high priest–just as Aaron had his sons to help him.

Even John admits of “another advocate” (John 14:16-17; 15:26; 16:7-13)–in this case the Holy Spirit–so that Jesus is not the only Advocate we have been given.

James 5:13-15 speaks of a sick person calling for the presbyters (elders, source of the English “priest”) to pray over him and anoint him and for his sins to be forgiven. Yes, James 5:16 speaks of confessing to one another for forgiveness, but 1 John 5:16-17 makes a distinction between deadly sin (or mortal) and non-deadly sin. So we are to pray for one another–but apparently in cases of mortal or deadly sin, we need something more effective. It is telling that James speaks specifically of calling the elders/presbyters/priests.

And then there is the power to bind and loose given to Peter (Matthew 16:19) and to all the Apostles (Matthew 18:18), as well as the command to forgive sins given the disciples in John 20–how can such sins be forgiven without those who are to forgive knowing what they are binding or loosing? In fact that last verse is pretty clear:

[Jesus] said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”

By implication, this is the Twelve, the Apostles–those who are “sent”–(less Thomas and Judas) gathered in the upper room. It clearly has the command to forgive–and to retain as well. And note that forgive appears twice: once with “you” as the subject–“You forgive”–and once, as was noted, in the past perfect passive–those sins have been forgiven.

 

[bmonk]

Another thought, Wretched Man:

We distinguish two priesthoods in the Church. There is the priesthood of all the baptized, by which all those who follow Christ and have become members of the Body, the Church, by baptism, are called to spread the Gospel and sanctify the world by Christ’s grace flowing through them. But there is also the Ordained priesthood of the Clergy, those called to offices of Bishop, Priest (Presbyter) and Deacon, who are called to minister primarily to those within the Church. We cannot just conflate the two priesthoods. Even in Jesus own ministry on earth, he had the mass of followers and disciples, and he chose twelve of them to a special ministry. They continued this ministry after his Resurrection and Ascension. They were the ones who designated the first seven Deacons to ministry to the poor. The Apostles sent out Barnabas to Antioch; Barnabas in turn recruited Saul/Paul to the ministry, and later the Holy Spirit called these two to go out an evangelize the areas of Asia Minor and Greece–thus we see the start of the Apostolic Succession, which Paul continues by designating Titus and Timothy as overseers (Bishops).

Given all this, it is perfectly acceptable that, following an unbroken tradition, Priests and Bishops are given a share in the special authority Jesus gave the Apostles to forgive sins.

 

[Gorgias]

No where else in scripture is this narrow view taught…scripture must interpret scripture and context is the key.

Wait – so nothing in Scripture is the inerrant Word of God… unless it shows up twice? Something that’s in Scripture one time isn’t reliable, unless there’s another Scripture to back it up? OK, then… where do we find that interesting bit of exegetical principle?

In John 20:23 the words “have been forgiven” is the single Greek word aphiami. It is the perfect passive. The perfect tense is “I have been.” The pluperfect is “I had been.” The perfect tense designates an action that occurs in the past and continues into the present, i.e., “I have been eating.” The disciples were not doing the forgiving, but pronouncing the sins that “have been” forgiven by God.

Uh-oh… brother, either someone has sold you a bill of goods, or your Greek reading skills need a bit of practice. Yes, ἀφέωνται means “they have been forgiven” (the sins). Yet, as you yourself say, “context is key”. Look at the whole sentence: Jesus tells the apostles ἀφῆτε τὰς ἁμαρτίας ἀφέωνται αὐτοῖς – “if you forgive sins, they are forgiven”! Now, I ask you… in this sentence, who is it who is the subject of this first clause? Who is it who is forgiving sins? If you – that is, the apostles – forgive sins, these sins are forgiven.

But, what about the perfect tense that you reference? Well, perfect tense identifies a present state that has come about by virtue of a past action. What’s the present state? It’s the state of the penitent as being forgiven. What’s the past action? The forgiving of the sins by the apostles (the ἀφῆτε).

The meaning could not be more clear, when analyzed in context: apostles forgive sins; this results in Christians who are forgiven of sins. What the apostles do… has real effects. When an apostle says, “your sins are forgiven”, they’re forgiven. Through Jesus, of course – since forgiveness is from God – but by virtue of the action of the apostles. Claiming anything else is really claiming that Jesus really didn’t mean what He said…

You don’t understand the history of the priesthood and or who the priesthood is today

That’s interesting: a Church, which has maintained the priesthood given to it by Christ himself… doesn’t understand the history of the priesthood? If you really want to attempt it, you could demonstrate to us – in the writings of the Early Church Fathers – where the bishops weren’t seen as having inherited the priesthood of Christ, in a way that is distinct from the way that the laity shared in the priesthood of Christ.

The bible speaks of deacons, elders, bishops, pastors, prophets, teachers, pastors, but Priests are not mentioned in the new testament church…except where I mentioned above.

The Bible also doesn’t mention the Trinity – at least by name. Are you saying that the Holy Trinity doesn’t exist?

Even the scribes and pharisee’s new only God could forgive sin…never heard mention in scripture of the priests in Jesus day doing what the priests of the RCC are doing today.

Then again, Jesus didn’t tell the scribes and Pharisees that they could forgive sins.

I have been to third world countries and I have read history of the RCC, I have seen the authority the RCC has imparted to Priests and how they have strong armed the lay person and used manipulative and intimidating means of power, enforced upon the priests, by the RCC over the people. My friend…not a very good history.

I would like to know what this proves. Are you saying that, since men sin, they lose what Jesus has given to them? That’s problematic, wouldn’t you say? By analogy, that would imply that, since mankind has sinned since Jesus ascended into heaven, that humanity has lost the salvation that Jesus has given to us! If that is not the case, it’s also not the case that fallible men (i.e., priests) act like sinful humans; yet, this doesn’t nullify the gifts of Jesus to mankind.

I don’t need a priest or a pastor to represent me before God

He’s not representing you before God… he’s representing God to you…!

[2Cr 5:18 KJV] And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
[2Cr 5:19 KJV] To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

So, 2 Cor 5:18-19 is what tells you that you have the ministry of reconciliation? Who’s the “us” to whom Paul refers? All through this chapter, he’s talking about his – that is, Paul’s – ministry! Look a bit further in your quoting, to 2 Cor 5:20 – "Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

So, who is it that has the ministry of reconciliation? Who is it who is an ambassador? Is it all Christians? Well, then, who is it who acts an ambassador – who is it who is doing the beseeching? Paul is. Paul is asserting his apostolic authority in the ministry of reconciliation. Does he offer the exercise of this ministry to Christians in this passage… or is he exercising this ministry, in order to offer reconciliation to Corinthians?

Thank you for providing this passage … it demonstrates precisely that the Catholic case is correct!

Only in RCC tradition…this belief system of yours is not biblical

Of course, if it’s only in the Catholic tradition… this could imply that all other belief systems, including “this belief system of yours” are the ones that aren’t biblical…

 

[bmonk]

Just because catholics believe this , does not make this truth. RCC have been told this through tradition…more than finding it in Gods word…one first speaking of binding and loosening does not conclude mere men have power to absolve sin…in context Matt is speaking about how church business is to be conducted…how to handle men who are refusing to change or repent and men who are repentant …but these verses from context are speaking of the leadership of the church on to handle a sinner…saying your forgiven loosed from what sin you had done because they followed the biblical mandate

Is Jesus also speaking of “church business” in giving the power of the keys, the power to bind and loose, to Simon Peter in Matthew 16:9? And, in any case, it seems to me that the power to forgive is a mighty part of “church business.”

The power of the keys was to be taken from the King’s Master of the Palace Shebna by King Hezekiah (Is 22: 15-25) to Eliakim–so that God says, “I will place the key of the House of David on his shoulder; what he opens, no one will shut, what he shuts, no one will open.” (Is 22:22) Does this mean that Peter was given the powers to lock the churches (that would not exist for centuries) or to admit into or lock persons out of the Church? That includes forgiveness!–after all, no evil is supposed to persist in the Body of Christ.

The Pharisees in Mark 2:1-12 complain that only God can forgive sins–Jesus shows them they are wrong (Jesus is God, and so even as a human has the authority to forgive)–but it is wrong to assume that Jesus has not in turn given others the authority to forgive sins.

 

[Cathoholic]

Wretched Man.

You said:

In John 20:23 the words “have been forgiven” is the single Greek word aphiami. It is the perfect passive. The perfect tense is “I have been.” The pluperfect is “I had been.” The perfect tense designates an action that occurs in the past and continues into the present, i.e., “I have been eating.” The disciples were not doing the forgiving, but pronouncing the sins that “have been” forgiven by God.

This is wrong. The Apostles were forgiving sins in the person of Christ. Jesus works in and through them in a special way.

Have you ever asked yourself WHY if the Greek is such slam-dunk for a Protestant view of Confession . . . . WHY do Greek Orthodox have Confession?

Am I to think:

"It is a good thing the Protestants have come along and went to Protestant seminary. Now they can help the Greeks with their own native language.

You might say: “Well this was Koine’ or Bible Greek.”

Then we can start to trot out the ancient Greek fathers on Confession. Then what?

Sometimes the issue is really one of lack of belief.

I am not saying that is the case for you Wretched Man. But ask yourself if you could be influenced by people who cannot believe historical Christianity and thus invent traditions of men to fit their belief limits as a form of conscience salve or whatever other reasons they feel the need to invent their religious systems.

 

[glendab]

To Wretched Man and anyone else who may think the Bible is the sole authority for their faith, I have one question:

The Bible as we know it wasn’t written and distributed to the masses until the 1500’s. Did God NOT SAVE ANYONE in those years preceding the invention of Guttenberg’s printing press? Was God a** failure **until He could finally place the Bible in everyone’s hand so they could interpret it for themselves and THEN HE COULD FINALLY SAVE A FEW WHO READ IT?

Answer as honestly as you can.

This is nonsense but that is exactly what the Bible believing Sola Scripturists *have to believe *in order to continue to save themselves from the rest of Salvation history and the Church Christ founded.

Glenda

 

[Gorgias]

Did God NOT SAVE ANYONE in those years preceding the invention of Guttenberg’s printing press?

Glenda,

Trial attorneys have a saying: “never ask a question if you don’t already know the answer in advance.” You might be surprised at the answer you get back.

 

[rcwitness]

No where else in scripture is this narrow view taught…scripture must interpret scripture and context is the key.

Hello Wretched Man. Good to see you in this forum. Im not sure I understand this expression…‘Scripture must interpret Scripture’. Do you have support/explanation for this?

We believe, Jesus is living and active in all His believers, yet not all occupy the same roles and offices. Sin (serious and deadly sin) destroys the relationship the believer has with Jesus. This relationship is not only bound to the person of Jesus, but also to the ‘people of Jesus’ or the ‘mystical body of Christ’. In a way, the pastoral priest does represent the body of believers. He also makes the Lord Jesus present in a confirmed way. He is there in truth.

Baptism cleanses us from all former sins. Once in this grace, we are united to all His holy people. To revert to sin, means seperating ourselves from this grace. Returning to Him in good conscience and a clean heart, requires confession/recognition/acknowledgment before the ‘good standing’ Church. The priestly confessional is the ‘good standing’ Sacrament given to us for our prayers to be Confirmed.

Consider this:
Many believers came to Jesus for forgiveness of their sins. He told them their sins were forgiven, and they believed. They did not believe He was actually God at this time. They believed He was representing God! You seem to be doing the same thing the scribes and pharisees were doing…accusing us of falsely believing God/Jesus is not represented to us in the Pastor/Priest of the Sacrament of Reconciliation. You and they are saying, “only God can forgive sins.” Yet, you and they dont believe Jesus is the One forgiving through this Sacrament.

Peace,
Michael

 

[Wretched_Man]

Again if you choose to place your trust in the history of RCC or Orthodoxy t tradition…awesome man. I place my trust in scripture validating scripture… choose to continue to go directly to God through Christ and my position that is found “In Christ” Believers have access directly to the throne of grace…and come boldly as a son not a slave or a servant…praise Jesus…thanks man…

 

[Gorgias]

Hi, WM! Good to see you back!

Again if you choose to place your trust in the history of RCC

No, not in the history of the Catholic Church, but rather, in the Holy Spirit, who has protected and guided the Catholic Church for 2000 years. It’s a subtle – but critical! – distinction!

I place my trust in scripture validating scripture

OK… so, you asked for additional Scripture – so we asked “where do you find the exegetical position that Scripture must duplicate itself in order to be ‘valid’”? No answer?

I pointed out that even your reference to 2 Corinthians helps validate the Catholic position – that Paul wasn’t offering the ministry of reconciliation to everyone, but rather, as an apostle, was offering the opportunity for their own reconciliation! No answer?

You made an interesting claim about the Koine Greek of John 20:23, which we have demonstrated is flawed (the claim about the lack of agency on the part of the apostles, which fails when we see that it is the apostles who are doing the forgiving, themselves!). No answer!

Peace, man … you know what, though? If you’re long on assertions but short on answers and justifications, then unfortunately “your position” doesn’t really hold up to scrutiny…!

Blessings,

G.

 

[staffordgabriel]

Hello

 

[rcwitness]

Again if you choose to place your trust in the history of RCC or Orthodoxy t tradition…awesome man. I place my trust in scripture validating scripture… choose to continue to go directly to God through Christ and my position that is found “In Christ” Believers have access directly to the throne of grace…and come boldly as a son not a slave or a servant…praise Jesus…thanks man…

You seem to be zealous for the Lord. Your good faith in Him may be greater than mine, only God knows.

I wouldnt say I put my trust in the History of the Church any more than you. We both recognize the historical facts of the life, death and resurection of our Lord, Jesus. Amen! You believe, and I hope you have received His baptism as well!

What I do put my trust in, is His promises given to His Church, who I am only a member of. Not that the Lord’s work in me is small! Yet, I do not interpret Scripture myself. Peter warned us of this error. Nor do I believe any individual is immune to sin, wheather a simple Church attendant or the Pope in Rome. We all are called to His priestly ministry in some way. I choose to thank God for our brothers in the faith who devote themselves to the ministry of the Priesthood. I the O.T. Only the priests would eat of the bread of The Presence. Now in the year of our Lord, the Priests serve the faithfull the Holy bread of His sacrificial passover! Do you receive Communion through your pastor? Or do you bless and serve this for yourself? So it is with forgiveness after Baptism.

The life of the Church is communal. We all participate in the high priests life. This is the continued work of Jesus, the only accepted Son of God!

Peace
Michael

 

[rcwitness]

Hello

Hello
…and welcome!

Michael

 

[glendab]

Hello again Wretched Man.

Such a doleful name. Are you really wretched in a spiritual sense? I wonder.

Again if you choose to place your trust in the history of RCC or Orthodoxy t tradition…awesome man. I place my trust in scripture validating scripture… choose to continue to go directly to God through Christ and my position that is found “In Christ” Believers have access directly to the throne of grace…and come boldly as a son not a slave or a servant…praise Jesus…thanks man…

I know we’re getting way off track here from the OP, but I want to respond to your above insistence that “scripture validate scripture.” How do you respond to this Scripture: “There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written.” From the Gospel of St. John, Chapter 21 verse 25. Please be honest with what you think it means.

On a personal note, as a convert, I think you could quit all these mental gymnastics and trust His Church. We’ve been around a long time. What would you lose if you became a Catholic? You’d have more time on your hands because you’d have the Church to help you understand God and His Word and you could even take Him up on His promise of Heaven.

Then you’d be like some of the other folks around here and on this particular thread - trying to find ways to stay away from the Sacrament of Confession!

But I’m betting that if you did go with the flow and allowed the grace of God to influence you, when you did finally convert, you’d walk across hot coals to get to the Confessional. That’s how intensely God sometimes grabs some of us and draws us to Him, so be careful. He’s really serious about conversion. Love to have you join us!

Glenda

 

[Cathoholic]

We don’t know for sure all the reasons WHY Jesus has us Confess our sins to Priests but perhaps part of the reason is humanity is in need of the humility.

Wretched Man. You said in post 100

Show me anywhere outside John 20:23…where it is taught that priests have been given power to forgive sins, or anyone for that matter .
Thanks

Will this really matter to you?

Let’s look at St. Paul matter-of-factly employ this concept of acting in the person of Christ (persona Christi) in the context of forgiving sins, without any felt need to defend it.

Jesus actually personally forgives sins through his appointed.

2nd CORINTHIANS 2:5-11 5 But if any one has caused pain, he has caused it not to me, but in some measure–not to put it too severely-- to you all. 6 For such a one this punishment by the majority is enough; 7 so you should rather turn to forgive and comfort him, or he may be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. 8 So I beg you to reaffirm your love for him. 9 For this is why I wrote, that I might test you and know whether you are obedient in everything. 10 Any one whom you forgive, I also forgive. What I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for your sake in the presence (Greek word “prospon”) of Christ, 11 to keep Satan from gaining the advantage over us; for we are not ignorant of his designs.

2nd CORINTHIANS 2:10 (DRV Catholic Bible translation) And to whom you have forgiven any thing, I also: for, what I forgave, if I have forgiven any thing, it was for your sakes in the person of Christ, 11 that we may not be circumvented by Satan: for we are not ignorant of his devices.

Do you think St. Paul has the power to forgive something/anything in the very prospon or “person” of Christ (in persona Christi)? If so what do you think he has been given this power to forgive (if not sins) that is so important, if not done, Satan can circumvent them (v. 11)?

In Matthew 28:18, Jesus said, “All authority in Heaven and on earth has been given to me.”

How much “authority” is that?

a. A little
b. Quite a bit
c. ALL authority in Heaven and on earth

Then Jesus sent out his Apostles with the gift of among other things, His authority! . . . . “As the Father has sent me, so now I send you” (in John 20:21). And this is directly in association with forgiving sins.

Did Jesus come with authority? Did Jesus send out His Apostles “as the Father sent Me, so now I send you?”

How much “authority” would you say that is that the Apostles have received?

a. A little
b. Quite a bit
c. ALL authority in Heaven and on earth

You and I know only God can forgive sins right?

But the real question is, HOW does God forgive them?

You would say we are to confess our sins directly to Jesus and ONLY to Jesus.

I have no issue with Confessing directly to Jesus (Catholics call that an “examination of conscience”). But is there any other way we are instructed to Confess our sins too?

Yes. It was already discussed earlier on this thread.

I asked in post 20:

Considering James 5:16 . . . .

JAMES 5:16 16 Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed.

. . . . . WHO do you think James is talking about and . . . .

. . . . WHO are the “one another” YOU confess your sins to?

a. I don’t confess my sins to anyone (certainly not “one another”)
b. I confess my sins to myself (definitely not “one another”)
c. I confess my sins directly to God and ONLY to God (and not “one another”)
d. I confess my sins to another person (just like James 5:16 tells me to) but beforehand I confess them to God when I examine my conscience.

If you answer a, b, or c, then you are not obeying James 5:16. If you answered “d”, we can then have the discussion about WHO the “one another” is, that James is referring to.

So WHO is the “one another” that YOU Confess your sins to Wretched Man?

I see 1st John 1:9 you say in post 98:

1st JOHN 1:9 9 If we confess our sins (to Jesus), he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

Considering James explicitly tells us to Confess our sins to “one another” in the context of getting our sins forgiven, . . . .

. . . . WHY did you think it is OK to ADD “confess our sins (to Jesus)” to Sacred Scripture in 1st JOHN 1:9?

I am not criticizing this (although I may, if you don’t have a good reason), I just want to know why you added to Sacred Scripture here, especially when the Holy Spirit explicitly tells us we are to “confess our sins to one another” elsewhere?

 

[pablope]

Again if you choose to place your trust in the history of RCC or Orthodoxy t tradition…awesome man.

But this is now a 2000 year old tradition. Your tradition of disregarding this tradition is only about 500 yrs old…and you got this only from your protestant grandfathers.

So…can you explain to us here…both Catholic and Orthodox…are all of a sudden, wrong in their tradition? And how could let this go on for 2000 years?

I place my trust in scripture validating scripture…