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thinkandmull
Guest
My question is why God does not forgive people who are not Catholic unless they have perfect contrition. Seems randomly cruel. thanks for any feedback
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mdcpensive1
Guest
The only thing I can think of is that He provided a way and He wants us to use that way. Circumventing that way negates His main purpose for the sacrament. You have to remember that a priest is standing in for Christ and it is Christ that forgives.
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thinkandmull
Guest
Good answer
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zz912
Guest
You’re going to have to wait a LONG time to find a priest without sin to confess to.
And a heresy in the 4th century is STILL a heresy in the 21st century. The sacrament does not confer grace by the power or holiness of the priest. It is God’s power and grace.
Find a priest you like as a confessor, but I assure you, he will be a sinner just as yourself.
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Gorgias
Guest
Why do you say that “God does not forgive people who are not Catholic unless they have perfect contrition”? That’s not what the Church teaches…
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glendab
Guest
Hello Thinkandmull.
Glenda
How about this monkey wrench thrown into the Hallmark version of Catholicism that some seem to think should be the reality: The Story Of Noah and the Flood. There weren’t any Catholics then. God got so disgusted with the sins of humankind that He decided to wipe them from the face of the earth. He told Noah to build and Ark, which he did and then God let loose the rain from Heaven and it fell covering the whole earth with the seas and what was in them for a long time. Every man, woman and child who was not in the Ark with Noah perished. Does this seem to you to be “randomly cruel?” Yet it happened and the folks at Hallmark would have a hard time making the saccharine version available for Prime Time Broadcasting. And you’re wondering why God doesn’t just forgive everyone and proscribes a Sacramental duty for it…ummmmmmmmmmmmm…do I need to say more? God does whatever He wills and fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom. God doesn’t have to forgive anyone. We are indebted to Him not the other way around. I think the mentality behind all the insistence about God’s forgiveness is a sense of entitlement. Like I checked off all the right boxes on the tally sheet, therefore I am owed Heaven as my reward. Right? Excuuuuuuuuse me, but this is God we are talking about and He really doesn’t owe anyone anything at all. Humility is the remedy I think. But enough from me.
Glenda
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mdcpensive1
Guest
I have an app for confession that has check boxes. It helps me a lot.
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seaton2005
Guest
That very well may be so, let’s be real here - the rape and abuse of a child is committed by the worse of the worse - and also those that cover it up. I’m reminded of Christ’s very words in Matthew 18:6: “But who so shall cause one of these little ones that believe on me to stumble, it is profitable for him that a great millstone should be hanged about his neck, and [that] he should be sunk in the depth of the sea.”
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mdcpensive1
Guest
But that has nothing to do with what Christ does personally in the sacraments. They are methods He uses to give grace. It is not the ordained ministers that give grace. They are conduits in a sense. It is all about Christ and His love for us meeting us by using physical senses/objects in spiritual matters to give us graces.
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bmonk
Guest
Yes. The principle that the personal sanctity of the minister does not affect the sacraments is a safeguard for the faithful. It means that we connect to Christ for grace, and so we need not obsess over whether the minister is in a state of grace. Imagine the difficulties if we had to be sure that the priest was not in a state of mortal sin to confect the Eucharist, or to baptize, or to do any of the sacraments validly? It would be chaos!
Still, it is good to encourage one another to live in grace as best we can, to make frequent use of the sacraments, especially reconciliation, so that we can be free of the burden of sin as much as possible, and to encourage others, including our ministers and clergy, to do the same.
Still, it is good to encourage one another to live in grace as best we can, to make frequent use of the sacraments, especially reconciliation, so that we can be free of the burden of sin as much as possible, and to encourage others, including our ministers and clergy, to do the same.
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steve_b
Guest
Baptism is the beginning.
po:
As pope Francis said, “It is not possible to find Jesus outside the Church”: And by “Church” of course he means the Catholic Church.
http://www.news.va/en/news/pope-mass-on-feast-of-st-george-full-text
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seaton2005
Guest
Well then, it’s been shown that some of the ordained ministers of our church have grave sins on their souls, more so than I can say I have ever had. So I will bypass the ordained priest and confess directly to Christ. That’s they way I do it now. I know, you are thinking and he’s a catholic. I am, but I will not have a priest hear my confession. With that said, I try to live a good life, I try to do the right thing. I don’t cheat on my wife, I take care of my family, I mentor youth, and I don’t violate the law. So I believe it’s how we live our lives and the positive examples we set for others.
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mdcpensive1
Guest
I am sorry you are having such a hard time with this sacrament. Do you have issues with priests for other sacraments? Maybe confirmation or baptism? Do you think that any priest would be good enough ? I am not sure what else to say if I was in your shoes and facing Christ.
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bmonk
Guest
So–you are determining on your own what the proper way of salvation is, apart from what the Church teaches? That is not the Catholic faith, and know that thereby you are taking your own chances with God and with the state of your immortal soul.
It is true that God is not constrained by the ordinary means established for us to attain salvation. There are those saved outside the ordinary channels. However, it is also presumption to insist that we can only accept life through extraordinary means when the ordinary means are given us.
I will pray for your soul.
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seaton2005
Guest
Based on your thesis anyone that is not Catholic is taking their own chances to, correct? Don’t you think that’s a rather arrogant, judgmental and elitist thing to say. I will pray for your soul too. I and Christ know what’s in my heart.
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zz912
Guest
Yep. Pride. Too much pride to submit yourself in obedience to His Bride, the Church.
And which of the other sacraments do you abstain from?
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zz912
Guest
SOME priests have grave sins on their souls.
So which ones? Do you have fewer sins than your parish priest? Or the pastor? Or the priest at the parish a couple miles away?
This whole post reeks of Protestant theology, and trust me, that’s not something or somewhere you want to be. Jesus commanded us to be perfect. Are you?
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bmonk
Guest
Actually, that is a slight overstatement. Those who reject the Catholic Church and what it teaches–of their own accord–are responsible for their souls. We might, for example, put into this category the Protestant founders, such as Martin Luther–he was trained and had the opportunity to learn what the Church teaches. What of a contemporary Lutheran–or perhaps a Reformed Evangelical, whose church teaches that the Catholic Church (wrongly presented) is wrong? Are they to be held responsible for what they cannot reasonably be expected to know?
Another group that can be excused, for example, is those who have been so hurt by the Church that they cannot remain in it–it is too painful so that they are no longer able to chose in freedom.
What I base my point on is that only the Catholic Church–the communion founded by Christ, was promised by Christ the Spirit to keep it faithful, that was given the Apostles to lead it under the “rock” of Peter, and that continues to be faithful to that heritage–only the “one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church” has the fullness of truth. Other communities have some truth, but also have discarded some along the way.
Is this arrogant–or is it a sign of humility that I submit my judgement to the promises of Christ and the Church Christ founded? Why be Catholic if there is not some difference that matters? Why not just say, “It really doesn’t matter, so long as you try to be a good person, and read the Gospels?”
Because that sort of attitude was not good enough for Jesus (in his criticism of Pharisees, Matt 23:1-36, and Sadducees, Matt 22:23-33) or for Paul (in his response to the Judaizers, such as in Galatians). They demanded more–Paul in particular, when such a case came up, looked to the authority of the Church, Gal 2:1-6, to see whether anything should be added–and they said no. He did not insist on his own way (1 Cor 13:5) but rejoiced in the truth (1 Cor 13:6).
In a similar way, going directly to God may suffice for some sins–so long as your relationship with God has not been broken or crippled by mortal sin–but some sins do require a more sacramental approach. This is particularly true in that sin helps us deceive ourselves, while the confession to a priest involves an outside hearer, who can, in the name and role of Christ, as well as official representative of the community, affirm that we are forgiven, and even provide advice on what may help us in the future. This is part of what the Letter to the Hebrews advises in 10:25 about not deliberately staying away from the assembly, because to reject the assembly is also to reject the why the High Priest chose to give us to remain in the covenant and to receive the benefits of His ministry.
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mdcpensive1
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seaton2005
My friend, you have to ask why Jesus thought that confession in the present form is the way He wanted it to be and was one of the seven most important things He established. It corresponds to the human life cycle. We are born so we have baptism. We grow in strength so we have confirmation. We get stronger so we have the Eucharist. We get sick so we need confession and last rites. The sacraments follow the cycle of life. We are also covenanted people from the choses ones. In the minor sacrament they had they always gave a sin offering to the priest who carried it to the altar. Our new covenant sacrament is a fulfillment of the old and Jesus set it up so that we can hear that we are forgiven, not just hoping we are. That is the important part, hearing we are absolved.
Again it is not the priest who forgives but hears the words in the place of Christ and allows Christ’s forgiveness to be effective. We will know for sure that forgiveness is granted. Otherwise we do NOT. Without hearing how do we really know. How do we know we are sorry enough. If we sin again do we think we didn’t have enough sorrow? This would bother me a lot.
How do you handle these things? It would drive me crazy to think I might be outside the friendship of God.
My friend, you have to ask why Jesus thought that confession in the present form is the way He wanted it to be and was one of the seven most important things He established. It corresponds to the human life cycle. We are born so we have baptism. We grow in strength so we have confirmation. We get stronger so we have the Eucharist. We get sick so we need confession and last rites. The sacraments follow the cycle of life. We are also covenanted people from the choses ones. In the minor sacrament they had they always gave a sin offering to the priest who carried it to the altar. Our new covenant sacrament is a fulfillment of the old and Jesus set it up so that we can hear that we are forgiven, not just hoping we are. That is the important part, hearing we are absolved.
Again it is not the priest who forgives but hears the words in the place of Christ and allows Christ’s forgiveness to be effective. We will know for sure that forgiveness is granted. Otherwise we do NOT. Without hearing how do we really know. How do we know we are sorry enough. If we sin again do we think we didn’t have enough sorrow? This would bother me a lot.
How do you handle these things? It would drive me crazy to think I might be outside the friendship of God.
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patrick8888
Guest
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