Why must I dance with the devil in order to serve God?

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Danjabo said:
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@ porthos11: I definitely get what you are saying about the politics. This is one of the most disillusioning parts of the whole thing. It makes me mad that I have to “play the game.” Is it ethical to deceive my superiors just so I can be ordained and potentially (but there’s no guarantee) get into a position where I can change the system for the better? Doesn’t that make me a hypocrite? Why should I have to dance with the devil to serve God?
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No one is telling you to deceive anyone or behave in a hypocritical manner. No one is suggesting you give your okay or consent to what are sinful opinions. Keeping your mouth shut when it is prudent to do so is a far cry from “deceiving.” Providing a counter-opinion in a humble rather than a “preachy” or “idealistic” manner is also part of it, if such a response is called for. For now, you are NOT the person with the strong bargaining chip. You are NOT the person in power. Your formators are. You cannot hurt them, but they can hurt you, and hurt you bad. This is what I mean by knowing your place in the food chain. This is politics.

When I say politics, I mean exercising the necessary skills that accompany that art. That includes proper choice of words, speechwriting, diplomacy and protest. What makes politics an art is that you have to find the optimal balance of all these factors. And there is where you play the game. There is nothing deceitful or hypocritical about it. What I’m suggesting you be, is realistic. Not that you lie, not that you be a hypocrite. But you might have to be, at this stage in your career, your own party whip, so to speak. Prudence may demand that you be slow to speak at this point, if called for.

You have to “dance with the devil” (I wouldn’t put it so strongly myself) because the music is playing. Politics exists in the Church, from seminary onwards. It is just the reality of life, and it is so because you, I, your formators, your priests and your bishop are all fallen human beings. The earlier you realize you have to play the politics game in your ecclesiastical career, the better off you’ll be.
 
Perhaps you’re in the wrong seminary but know that from my having spoken to seminarians at different locations all over the world, you’re not at all alone. Also know that those who hold orthodox beliefs like you are very much needed in the priesthood today and that the goal of churchmen who lecture to seminarians non-Catholic ideas do so in the hopes that men like you will never become priests as you’d be likely correct for future generations the errors they’ve been forcing down our throats these past several decades. The Church is at a crossroads and the time is now to purge the poison taught by the poorly formed and some wicked clergy you’re alluding to.
 
Perhaps you’re in the wrong seminary but know that from my having spoken to seminarians at different locations all over the world, you’re not at all alone. Also know that those who hold orthodox beliefs like you are very much needed in the priesthood today and that the goal of churchmen who lecture to seminarians non-Catholic ideas do so in the hopes that men like you will never become priests as you’d be likely correct for future generations the errors they’ve been forcing down our throats these past several decades. The Church is at a crossroads and the time is now to purge the poison taught by the poorly formed and some wicked clergy you’re alluding to.
 
Danjabo said:
@ reggieM: I like your advice to find other seminarians who are like me. I actually do know some who feel the same way I do but I don’t spend much time with them. I’ve often thought we should form some orthodox seminarian support group.
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Thanks for responding, Dan. I think a group like that is essential. But you have to keep it quiet or even secret - unfortunately. When you see a guy who seems devout at Mass, who is careful about his attitude in the sacred liturgy, or perhaps says some good things at mealtime that you recognize – just befriend him. It’s going to take trust.

Thank you for sharing your experiences. It’s important for us to know. We sometimes forget that priestly formation is a place where the Devil will strongly attack if we don’t pray for our priests and young men in formation.

I’ll be praying for you!
 
DignumEtJustum said:
Perhaps you’re in the wrong seminary but know that from my having spoken to seminarians at different locations all over the world, you’re not at all alone. Also know that those who hold orthodox beliefs like you are very much needed in the priesthood today and that the goal of churchmen who lecture to seminarians non-Catholic ideas do so in the hopes that men like you will never become priests as you’d be likely correct for future generations the errors they’ve been forcing down our throats these past several decades. The Church is at a crossroads and the time is now to purge the poison taught by the poorly formed and some wicked clergy you’re alluding to.
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Yes. This is the way it is, unfortunately.
At certain periods in Church history this has happened. Even saints were persecuted in lax or bad seminary programs in the past.

But we have this blessing - that there are many young seminarians who can see clearly what is going on. That is the grace of God helping them. I believe they will be a great source of good for the Church in the future.

Sometimes the priests teaching in seminaries get too comfortable. They don’t want the hard challenges that Jesus gives us, so they water it down. It is also easy to get proud, as we know with college professors. The seminary teachers begin to think they know it all – they read the worst, modernist literature to try to be up-to-date, but end up losing faith and absorbing errors. Then, who is going to correct them? Certainly not their students.
Then they persecute even the humble men who teach faithfully. The guilty conscience becomes an oppressor of others. Humility and purity of faith is needed. It’s all sad, but it’s human behavior. A lot of priests do not pray enough. Without that, they will fall into these very same errors that we’re seeing.
 
@ friardchips: It’s complicated, I guess. It’s not that certain topics are banned or not. I guess I could summarize it as: the faculty are very liberal/progressive and I am (and other seminarians are) conservative/traditional. I’ve considered that they may just be testing us to see if we will speak up for ourselves, but I agree with Dorothy that it doesn’t make sense for them to do that.
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I read in one of your responses to a poster that you are in religious priesthood training. This gives us a better idea. This doesn’t mean, however, that you won’t come across similar issues at other Religious seminaries. Did you not know it would be like this in your lead up to where you are along the way? And if your Spiritual Director is not helping then you need to pray for a new one. St. Faustina said that no one can advance that well without a Spiritual Director who understands your soul. And she said that one always needs to be praying for their current Spiritual Director even if they are a good one. That is of the up-most importance. If you are given a Spiritual Director who understands your soul then you would be finding this easier to bear, IMHO.
 
DignumEtJustum said:
Perhaps you’re in the wrong seminary but know that from my having spoken to seminarians at different locations all over the world, you’re not at all alone. Also know that those who hold orthodox beliefs like you are very much needed in the priesthood today and that the goal of churchmen who lecture to seminarians non-Catholic ideas do so in the hopes that men like you will never become priests as you’d be likely correct for future generations the errors they’ve been forcing down our throats these past several decades. The Church is at a crossroads and the time is now to purge the poison taught by the poorly formed and some wicked clergy you’re alluding to.
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It sounds as though the seminary is being thought of as being merely a selection process that doesn’t educate the seminarian. Suppose somebody goes to church as an ordinary layman. Is that somebody ready to be a priest? If the only requirement to become a priest is that one’s beliefs be orthodox, then surely many laymen qualify.

There’s a vast difference between detecting error and correcting error. Correcting error is a much more demanding goal. To prepare to achieve that goal requires education, not merely motivation.

**Surely it’s necessary to find a seminary that teaches orthodox beliefs. ** Successfully completing a program at such a seminary is what would ordinarily be required merely to be an ordinary priest. To pursue the goal of correcting error in seminaries – with any hope of success – would require additional preparation, special personal talents, and help from like-minded people.

Maybe the question “how does one find a seminary that teaches orthodox beliefs?” deserves its own thread.
 
PseuTonym said:
Maybe the question “how does one find a seminary that teaches orthodox beliefs?” deserves its own thread.
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Typically, one doesn’t himself choose the seminary he attends. Seminarians are assigned to attend the seminary chosen by his superiors.

But how are we not horrified by the reality behind this (very valid) question? If there is even one operational seminary that propagates heterodox beliefs or warped formation, why is this not treated as a crisis or emergency? There are many such operational seminaries, yet the Church as a whole just shrugs or half-heartedly rationalizes. I wish I could understand why.
 
Danjabo said:
Ah! I already feel guilty for posting this. I wanted to vent my frustrations to people who might understand, but now I feel like I’m just airing my family’s dirty laundry. Forgive me!
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There are only a few possibilities:
#1. There is no dirty laundry. You were simply imagining things. There is no conflict between what you believe and what you are being taught.

#2. There is a problem.

#3. Your own beliefs as mistaken or heretical, and that is why there is a conflict between what you believe and what you are being taught.

Now, #1 doesn’t seem very plausible, although it makes sense that somebody who is habitually searching within himself for error and sin would prefer to reduce cognitive dissonance by blaming himself, finding an error in himself, and working on changing himself. However, that plan is simply not feasible if the error is elsewhere.
 
I apologize for the error. I intended to write …

#3. Your own beliefs are mistaken or heretical, and that is why there is a conflict between what you believe and what you are being taught.
 
It surprises me how easily people can throw out “find another order blah blah.”

A vocation to the religious life is distinct from a vocation to the diocesan priesthood.

If one is a religious, he is in fact a religious before he is a priest. If the OP is in formation for the diocesan priesthood, presumably because he discerned it, it’s not the correct advice to steer him to a religious congregation.
 
porthos11 said:
If one is a religious, he is in fact a religious before he is a priest. If the OP is in formation for the diocesan priesthood, presumably because he discerned it, it’s not the correct advice to steer him to a religious congregation.
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Discernment doesn’t stop once you enter the diocesan seminary. Candidates must continue to discern God’s will until they are ordained. Part of that is recognizing if God wants the person studying for the diocese or for a religious order or priestly society.
 
I was going to say that you may have the misfortune of being located in the wrong diocese. In my diocese these things would be less likely to occur, as the bishop tends to select seminaries known for their orthodoxy.

But you are apparently in formation for a particular religious order. In that case, maybe you selected the wrong religious order.
 
You might take some comfort in what Father Peter Stravinskas had to say of his seminary formation years on the occasion of his 40th anniversary of ordination. (And he is a quite orthodox priest.)
The theology years were a nightmare at every level: outright heresy taught as Gospel truth; rife liturgical abuses on a daily basis; persecution of “retrograde” seminarians – with Yours Truly being told that he was “unsuited for ministry in the post-conciliar Church” and forced to find a benevolent bishop three months before diaconate.
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catholicworldreport.com/2017/05/04/duc-in-altum-on-forty-years-of-priesthood/
 
JimG said:
You might take some comfort in what Father Peter Stravinskas had to say of his seminary formation years on the occasion of his 40th anniversary of ordination. (And he is a quite orthodox priest.)
The theology years were a nightmare at every level: outright heresy taught as Gospel truth; rife liturgical abuses on a daily basis; persecution of “retrograde” seminarians – with Yours Truly being told that he was “unsuited for ministry in the post-conciliar Church” and forced to find a benevolent bishop three months before diaconate.
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One wouldn’t be able to take much comfort from Father Peter Stravinskas’ words if he concluded by saying …

“… and the nightmare has continued for all of these forty years.”

A continuing nightmare seems to be a possibility.
From earlier in this thread:
porthos11 said:
…] when you enter formation, you enter a political game that will last you the rest of your life.
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There was a book published some years ago by author Michael Rose, entitled: " Goodbye! Good Men: How Catholic Seminaries Turned Away Two Generations of Vocations From the Priesthood"

amazon.com/Goodbye-Good-Men-Seminaries-Generations/dp/0967637112

That was back in 2002. I had hoped things were better now 15 years later and I think they are, but only very slightly.

What Fr. Stravinskas experienced was shared by many young men of his generation - sadly, part (perhaps only small, but certainly part) of our vocations crisis was due to this.
 
reggieM said:
That was back in 2002. I had hoped things were better now 15 years later and I think they are, but only very slightly.
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Nope. They are exponentially worse. The third generation has already taken the hit. And no one seems to care.
 
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