Why must we forgive?

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arunangelo said:
We must be merciful, just as our Father is merciful (Luke. 6:36), because, He is our God. If we truly are followers of Christ, we too will forgive as He does (Eph 4:32). He forgave by sacrificing His life for those who betrayed Him, were unfaithful to Him and killed Him.
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How can it be morally good to forgive those who have done enormous harm ? To forgive such people as that is amoral: even immoral. 😦 To forgive injuries between individuals is one thing - to expect those who have suffered atrocious cruelties to forgive, borders on the criminal. When God is raped, or starved to death, or fed excrement - all of which happen to others - He will have a right to require forgiveness: but not until then :mad: :mad:​

This suicidal doctrine was ditched by the Allies - as was right. It’s a lovely idea - & utterly mad; to forgive those guilty of crimes against society is a form of connivance. As for forgiving pimping bishops & molester clerics - the less said about* them*, the better. :mad:
 
Dear Gottle of Geer,
Code: 
I think you are confusing appeasement and surrender with forgiveness.  Forgiveness is a powerful force of love that destroys all the harm and evil that was perpetrated.

 Your very example of the Allies is acase in point.  There are Germans and Japanese alive and thriving today.  We did not seek revenge or annihilate them.  In fact, we re-built their countries and gave them back their dignity as sovereign nations.  This can only be done by a forgiving and loving entity.

   The past is in books, forgiven.  Seek to be powerful! When you forgive you free yourself from self-righteous hatred and anger, which, I am afraid to say, is evil.
 
The thing that hurts me the most from forgiving people is being
afraid of them. It’s like if you forgive someone, then what if they
went to heaven and you were in heaven? That would be
frightening!!! You would be trapped there with them forever!!!
And they are not sorry!!! But this is what it means to trust Jesus: that if you see them in heaven, you won’t see their bad side. They won’t have one anymore, and if they do, they won’t
be there.

God did not make anyone to do terrible things, He made them
to do great things. Our fight is a spiritual one, not against flesh
and blood. Even if someone has done something unforgivable,
God can change their heart and their actions will follow. Our
job is just not to get in God’s way.

When I forgive someone, I get a new feeling like: now what?
Because now I am working on God’s side, and waiting for His
instructions, when before I forgave, I was stuck just trying not
to be so angry, and not being any real help to God. It just
frees up my time and my thoughts to be at God’s service,
instead of just worrying about myself all the time.

I guess the reason we must forgive is so we can be useful,
and not hinder God as He works with the person.
 
I don’t know your specific situation, but forgiveness does not entitle the forgived one to strike again. If this is the situation then, the one doing the forgiving must make hard decisions.

If you are married to aviolent spouse and you are being victimized, time and again, God does not want you to remain in a situation where you are constantly harmed.

You mention a person doing something unforgivable. Anything is forgivable, given time. Forgiveness is not a feeling and it is not a moment. It is an act of the will and it is a process.

As far as worrying about who you will see in heaven, be very careful. Concentrate on the state of your soul and its receptiveness before the Mercy of God. If you are in heaven, you are there as God’s guest, not because you earned it. Your job there will be to eternally praise God, not worry about who you don’t want to see.
 
michael_quinlan said:
I don’t know your specific situation, but forgiveness does not entitle the forgived one to strike again. If this is the situation then, the one doing the forgiving must make hard decisions.

If you are married to aviolent spouse and you are being victimized, time and again, God does not want you to remain in a situation where you are constantly harmed.

You mention a person doing something unforgivable. Anything is forgivable, given time. Forgiveness is not a feeling and it is not a moment. It is an act of the will and it is a process.

As far as worrying about who you will see in heaven, be very careful. Concentrate on the state of your soul and its receptiveness before the Mercy of God. If you are in heaven, you are there as God’s guest, not because you earned it. Your job there will be to eternally praise God, not worry about who you don’t want to see.
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Naturally your words are correct, but, they don’t answer the OP’s
question do they?
 
Dear Cheeto1,
I guess you're right. I was responding to you.
 
What if we are (as Jesus is quoted to have said on a few occassions) healed according to our faith, and likewise forgiven according to our forgiveness?

…not ***because ***we have faith …not ***because ***we forgive, but…

What if God forgives us in the same measure as how we forgive, not out of any spite, but because we have demonstrated how we want to be treated by the way we treat others?

This is one of those questions that I ask my class routinely and it can get some pretty worried looks on faces.
 
ForMary said:
What if God forgives us in the same measure as how we forgive, not out of any spite, but because we have demonstrated how we want to be treated by the way we treat others?
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In that case, it would be nothing but a gift to have someone
awful to forgive in your life, to make our measure of forgiveness higher.
 
I’ve forgiven many people for the way they’ve treated me. But That doesn’t mean I want to be around them at all.
 
cheeto1 said:
In that case, it would be nothing but a gift to have someone
awful to forgive in your life, to make our measure of forgiveness higher.
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Exactly! But of course one would have to actually forgive the awfulness.
 
Starwynd said:
I’ve forgiven many people for the way they’ve treated me. But That doesn’t mean I want to be around them at all.
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Forgiveness is a process. When we are finished, then all bitterness is gone.🙂
 
Why should I want to be around people who think that there’s nothing wrong with what they did and continue to to behave in the wrongful fashion they did? They won’t stop so that means even though I forgive them, I don’t want to be around them.
 
Starwynd said:
Why should I want to be around people who think that there’s nothing wrong with what they did and continue to to behave in the wrongful fashion they did? They won’t stop so that means even though I forgive them, I don’t want to be around them.
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It depends on the issue. If it involves violence, and abuse obviously distance must be maintained. But for more minor infractions sometimes we need to suffer by loving those that persecute us. There is no grace in loving those that love us.🙂
 
caoindealbhan said:
Dear Gottle of Geer,

I think you are confusing appeasement and surrender with forgiveness. Forgiveness is a powerful force of love that destroys all the harm and evil that was perpetrated.
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**I may well be doing that - but,supposing that to be so, how does forgiveness do as described :confused: AFAICS, forgiveness merely lets the evil-doer get away. In a world in which people suffer atrociously from the malice of others, this is appalling. **​

**During the War, Allied prisoners (among others) suffered horrendously from the Japanese; & many of their torturers have survived into a prosperous & unaccused old age. This cannot be right, surely ? The Japs vivisected some of their Korean prisoners, without anaesthetic. Even to *think *of forgiving such horrors borders on the blasphemous. This sort of suffering is why there are British ex-servicemen who cannot forgive - they’ve suffered too much for that; people do. **
**Compared with that last fact, (as well as with the others), Matthew 18.22-35 counts for very little. People cannot be expected to forgive abominations, especially when they have been warped by them. An Infinite God can forgive - He has the capacity to do so. Limited man has no such infinite strength to do so - eventually, he snaps. I’m definitely on the side of man, who suffers, in this: not on the side of an unsuffering God or Christ Who expects the impossible. (I’ve always thought Jesus got off lightly - unlike the others crucified with Him, He didn’t have his legs shattered so that He would die; He was spared, & that is not fair; because men are not spared. :mad:) **
Your very example of the Allies is acase in point. There are Germans and Japanese alive and thriving today. We did not seek revenge or annihilate them. In fact, we re-built their countries and gave them back their dignity as sovereign nations. This can only be done by a forgiving and loving entity.

The past is in books, forgiven. Seek to be powerful! When you forgive you free yourself from self-righteous hatred and anger, which, I am afraid to say, is evil.
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**Easy for God the Untempted to say that - He has it easy 😦 **​

Thanks for your thoughts though 🙂 - & a Happy Christmas to you .
 
Gottle_of_Geer said:

**An Infinite God can forgive - He has the capacity to do so. Limited man has no such infinite strength to do so **​

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Exactly. But, there is something we can do to this end, however small it may be. Just like in the loaves and the fishes, Jesus
asked for only what they had to give. It was He who provided the miracle.

🍰 (happy birthday Jesus)
 
Would it help to know that Americans were just as vicious during the war? I believe thousands of people linger to this day with radiation poisoning from the atomic bomb. How about pushing Japanese prisoners hand-cuffed out of planes over the Pacific Ocean? Hard to believe that Americans could do such things… Relocation camps for Japanese and(out of ignorance) Chinese at times.

Once again, I repeat, forgiveness is a process. On the other side is paradise. Hate can’t be that comforting to you. Put it down, ask God to forgive YOU for being unforgiving, and a great peace will come to you. Also pray for those that persecute others. Victims are God’s chosen because of their suffering.
 
Happy Happy Christmas!

It would be naive to ignore the damage caused by narcissistic sociopaths in our society. There is a school of thought that “what you permit, you promote”. Also, consider the worthwhile quotation that “All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing.” We must not confuse forgiveness with the moral failure to name and confront wrongdoing. Jesus decried the hypocrisy of the Pharisees, the greed of the tax collectors and the tawdriness of those who would profit off the sacrificial rites of the Jerusalem Temple.

In the Seven Spiritual Works of Mercy, we are called upon to “instruct the ignorant” and “admonish the sinner”. Too often, we take the easy way out via false “forgiveness”. In Judaism, there is a requirement for the wrongdoer to ask forgiveness before it is granted. Jesus took that a step beyond and asks us to forgive without the request for pardon. However, I do not believe Jesus asks us to endure abuse if it is within our power to end it. Condoning abuse does not glorify God the Father.

Do not be afraid to limit your exposure to habitual abusers and to tell those who cause harm, kindly but firmly, to knock it off. After three times if they don’t stop the bad behavior, shake the dust from your sandals and get outta there.

Much love for all and especially those who have had to endure abuse of any kind. Leslie
 
Starwynd said:
Why should I want to be around people who think that there’s nothing wrong with what they did and continue to to behave in the wrongful fashion they did? They won’t stop so that means even though I forgive them, I don’t want to be around them.
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I agree.
michael_quinlan said:
Forgiveness is a process. When we are finished, then all bitterness is gone.🙂
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That’s true. But we as humans make decisions based on experience and wisdom from others’ experiences. When we are wronged we can forgive completely, but that does not mean we need to stay around someone who is not healthy for us. It is also a teaching tool for the other. The people need to change their ways or loose friends, jobs, whatever it might be.

There are people who in my life have done horrible things. I harbor no ill-will towards them. I have completely forgiven them and when we come face to face I am more than civil, I am friendly (because I bear no ill-will or bitterness, all has been forgiven). But do I seek them out to spend time together? No.
 
Speaking as someone who, through Divine intervention, has forgiven someone who did my family and me grave harm (instead of loving and caring for us as he should have done), I can say that it freed me.

It didn’t free the perp, and if he wasn’t dead, I’d be fine with him going to jail. As it is, I’m sure he is paying, or has paid, for his sin. I hope he went to purgatory, and will be in Heaven when I get there.

What forgiving him did for me is that it has freed me to love him, pity him, and have compassion on him. The rancid ulcer on my soul, caused by the hate and resentment I carried, is gone.

I can even be angry about what he did, but in a different way than before. Not “Look what you did to me,” but “Why did *you *do such awful things?”

Hatred and resentment is all about me. As some wise person once said, “It just means you’re giving that person free rent in your head.”

As for the Divine intervention: I had no intention of forgiving him, and no desire to, either. I just woke up one day and found that I had. Since it wasn’t by my will - I figure I know Whose will it was.

Heart of Jesus, our peace and reconciliation, have mercy on us.

Ruthie
 
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