Why No Liturgical Chant?

[Usige]

We chant the Gloria, Sanctus and Agnus Dei in Latin at every Mass. Occasionally the Pater Noster as well. Our parish has done this for years and we sound pretty good.

You make me a tad envious, but glad to know there are areas that maintain the link to our liturgical roots.

I guess if you sound decent your parish must be full of professional vocalists based on the refrain that most parishes cannot learn to chant decently. That or perhaps, just perhaps, doing it for years has allowed people to learn it even if it wasn’t perfect for the first few masses. Maybe the key is not professionals, but rather patience and perseverance.

 

[MrsAngelala]

I guess if you sound decent your parish must be full of professional vocalists based on the refrain that most parishes cannot learn to chant decently. That or perhaps, just perhaps, doing it for years has allowed people to learn it even if it wasn’t perfect for the first few masses. Maybe the key is not professionals, but rather patience and perseverance.

^^^This, OP, is the last reason I will give, though certainly not the last reason there is. No-charge amateurs rule, in almost all churches. We’ve seen exactly where that gets us; we are LIVING at the end of that rainbow. The “treasure” we’ve found here is exactly what you posted: a whole lot of people who enjoy beautiful Catholic music, but can only access it in a way that is utterly disconnected from the liturgy, and wonder why that has to be.

Why can’t it be connected? Why can’t we enjoy this beauty in the context of the Mass? People who care about the music in our churches – what is beautiful, and when that means something unfamiliar like chant: how to “sell” it, how to teach it, and why it matters – people who devote an inordinate amount of time, energy, educational money they know they can never hope to earn back, and deep thought, to the analysis of this serious systemic issue and the skills needed to address it – are all too often subjected to the kind of disingenuous flippancy displayed by the poster quoted above. It wears us down. We leave.

I’m out. Best wishes to you, OP.

 

[FatherSebastian]

Well, you need to remember that the Church is, as we say in the Creed “Catholic,” not just Roman Catholic. In the Catholic Church, though not in each of its rites, you will still hear chant. As you have noted, in the Roman rite it has almost disappeared, but seems, thank God, to be making a comeback. In the Eastern rites, as in our Melkite Catholic Church, everything is still chanted. You can hear an example of it here at our parish homepage or on the music tab (steliasmelkite.org). So, it is still around, you just have to look for it, or should I say, listen for it. May God bless you.

 

[Gertabelle]

I really think it depends on the parish and the pastor, and also the diocese and the seminaries that train their new priests.

My pastor told us that we were to use the Latin mass parts for certain parts of the mass every Sunday. That was the expectation he had for this particular mass.

We also chant the communion antiphon from the book Simple English Propers as our first communion hymn every Sunday (one person sings it a capella while the rest of the choir goes to communion).

After the congregation has received communion, we usually sing a Marian antiphon (Salve Regina, Alma Redemptoris Mater, etc.). Our pastor loves this at this mass.

With regards to the congregation’s ability to sing chant, I think it is absolute nonsense to say one can only sing chant with extensive training.

I also think it is completely missing the point of the purpose of the music at mass to suggest that only music that can be sung well by the congregation should be sung at mass. If that were the case, we’d have to lose “Eagle’s Wings” and “One Bread, One Body” and so many of the other hymns that have been slaughtered by congregations near and far for decades. I honestly think it is the impossible melodies and rhythms of so many modern hymns that keeps people from singing at mass.

In our parish, the senior citizens love the newer hymns. At the mass where I play the organ, the young people – teens up to very early 20’s – sing old hymns and lots and lots of chant. Kind of funny actually.

I LOVE that my parish has four English-language masses, each with a unique style of music. In that way, all members of our parish can attend mass with music that assists in their prayers.

 

[InOmnemTerram]

In that way, all members of our parish can attend mass with music that assists in their prayers.

Actually, this is a wonderful example of why chant is so uncommon.

Once upon a time, chant was seen as being objectively fitting to worship God for very precise philosophical and theological reasons.

These days, we’ve gone in the direction of the subjective, and if I happen to like a particular form of music, then it is good and beneficial. If I don’t, then it must be bad and should be avoided. My own pleasure is the standard, and everything must conform to that, rather than my having to conform to something outside of myself.

The idea that chant could be a better form of music on an exterior level is completely alien to our way of seeing things. And so, like many other things, it was thrown away.

 

[Usige]

Well, you need to remember that the Church is, as we say in the Creed “Catholic,” not just Roman Catholic. In the Catholic Church, though not in each of its rites, you will still hear chant. As you have noted, in the Roman rite it has almost disappeared, but seems, thank God, to be making a comeback. In the Eastern rites, as in our Melkite Catholic Church, everything is still chanted. You can hear an example of it here at our parish homepage or on the music tab (steliasmelkite.org). So, it is still around, you just have to look for it, or should I say, listen for it. May God bless you.

Thank you for your comments, Father. If I might ask, do the Eastern rites maintain chant simply as a matter of heritage or is it simply not optional to omit chant or replace it with another type of music? Or perhaps it is a matter that no one would think of not using chant in the liturgy?

 

[FatherSebastian]

Thank you for your comments, Father. If I might ask, do the Eastern rites maintain chant simply as a matter of heritage or is it simply not optional to omit chant or replace it with another type of music? Or perhaps it is a matter that no one would think of not using chant in the liturgy?

If you mean by “heritage” > “Tradition” then yes, but if you mean by “heritage” > “what my grandmother liked to sing,” then no. St. Augustine said that when we sing we pray twice. The early Church liturgy was all chanted from the very beginning and the songs they sang were the psalms. During our liturgy today it is the same. Everything is chanted and everything is determined by the Tradition. This keeps the liturgy at a local parish from becoming the play thing of a local priest, liturgist, or liturerrorist. Every Sunday we have the set prayers, hymns, psalms, which makes up about 90% of the service. Then there is the changeable parts, but they are determined according to the festal period or the eight tone cycle, but even that is predetermined. We don’t have popular hymns. Well, let me correct that. We do, but they were composed during the 4th to the 6th century. After that, which ones are sung on which day has been set in stone. As mentioned before, you can get a good taste of it on our music tab on our parish website (steliasmelkite.org)

I think a short story might help. A few years ago, when my 40 day old son was Initiated into the Church (baptized, Chrismated/Confirmed, and received Communion), I invited a number of people. In our Tradition, we do this on Sunday morning as part of the Sunday service, as it was in the West up until recently. Two visitors had some remarks that I think are particularly relevant here.

One was a seminary professor who was an expert in early Church liturgy. When it was all over I saw him still standing in the church long after everyone had already gone to the hall for the Sunday social/agape meal (still a big deal in the East). I asked him how he like the service. He shot back at me, “Do you know what you just did?” I was a little startled. I then said, “Aaahh, ah.ah.a.Baptism?” He said, “I just saw a second to third century Initiation! I’ve been studying this stuff all my life…reading about it in books, in the fathers, but I have never seen it done, I didn’t know anyone still did this stuff!” He was, to put it lightly, tickled pink. I smiled and invited him to the hall for some food and drink.

The other visitor was a very good evangelical friend of mine who had his Masters in Scripture from Duke. I found him at the coffee machine and asked how he enjoyed the service. He looked at me for a second, then said, “I am not sure what to say…I’ll call you this week after I’ve had some time to think about it.” Wednesday evening, 7pm or so, the phone rings. “Hello.” “Hello, this is John [name changed to protect the innocent], I am calling you to talk about what happened on Sunday.” “Yes, John, what’s up?” “Look, let me ask you something. Was what I saw on Sunday what you guys do every Sunday?” I explained that while a few things change each Sunday, most of it is exactly the same every Sunday. “So you repeat the same things each Sunday?” Hmm, I started thinking…(I know where he’s going, repetition in prayer…)…so as I held the phone with my shoulder I carefully lowered my hand to my apologetics six-shooter, eased off the safety, and then said, “Ya, that’s right, why? You gotta problem with that?” “Hmmm, that’s what I thought…Well, Sebastian, we just can’t compete.” “What?” “I said, we just can’t compete. Look Sebastian, here’s the problem. Every Sunday I experience a liturgy. I know, I know, we protestants don’t usually use that term, but let’s be honest, that’s what it is. We always open with hymn, then there’s the prayer, then the sermon…you know, we have an order that we always follow. Anyway, here’s the problem. Every Sunday I experience a liturgy at my protestant church. Then everybody goes home. Then Monday comes and the pastor picks out the text upon which he will preach for the following Sunday, he starts composing his sermon, then he calls the music ministry leader who starts picking out what songs should be sung based on the sermon theme, then he calls…well you get the picture. By Sunday, they have created a liturgy again and the cycle starts all over. Every Sunday I experience a liturgy that has been created in one week! You guys have been working on this things for 2000 years. We just can’t compete.” I eased the safety back on the six-shooter and slipped it back in the holster.

 

[Liturgy_Geek_1]

We are blessed to have a musical priest at our Cathedral who chants. The congregation has learned several simple chant and, while it is not a mellismatic as chants of the past, at least we as a congregation do chant.

 

[Usige]

If you mean by “heritage” > “Tradition” then yes, but if you mean by “heritage” > “what my grandmother liked to sing,” then no. St. Augustine said that when we sing we pray twice. The early Church liturgy was all chanted from the very beginning and the songs they sang were the psalms. During our liturgy today it is the same. Everything is chanted and everything is determined by the Tradition. This keeps the liturgy at a local parish from becoming the play thing of a local priest, liturgist, or liturerrorist. Every Sunday we have the set prayers, hymns, psalms, which makes up about 90% of the service. Then there is the changeable parts, but they are determined according to the festal period or the eight tone cycle, but even that is predetermined. We don’t have popular hymns. Well, let me correct that. We do, but they were composed during the 4th to the 6th century. After that, which ones are sung on which day has been set in stone. As mentioned before, you can get a good taste of it on our music tab on our parish website (steliasmelkite.org)

I think a short story might help. A few years ago, when my 40 day old son was Initiated into the Church (baptized, Chrismated/Confirmed, and received Communion), I invited a number of people. In our Tradition, we do this on Sunday morning as part of the Sunday service, as it was in the West up until recently. Two visitors had some remarks that I think are particularly relevant here.

Thank you, Father. Yes, I am talking about tradition that ties us back centuries and not tradition that ties us back to last year.

Your explanation and stories kind of reaffirm the point in my original post; namely that Latin Catholics do not maintain a strong tie to our liturgical roots. While the situation in the Roman rite is not quite as… dynamic (?)… as your friend “John” has, it does seem to be similar from a liturgical music stand point. While there are a set of instructions for various parts of the Mass, they are often given with an option that includes alius cantus aptus (other suitable chant). This means that instead of the introit we get a processional hymn; instead of the offertory antiphon we get a hymn; instead of a communion antiphon? you guessed it, we get a hymn.

Our pastor often says “If we had chanted the introit you would have heard …” He will also chant the Doxology (“Per ipsum et cum ipso”) following the Eucharistic prayer, but instead of a chanted Amen we use a slightly syncopated version so that the liturgical music is not consistent. Given that he does chant and mentions chanting the propers at various times, I would not say that it is always the pastor in the Roman rite that drives the decision to use alius cantus aptus. I often wish that we had a more tightly structured liturgy as you describe so that we don’t have pastor, music director and liturgy committees that change the tone of a given Mass as suits their internal logic.

I did get a chance to listen to a number of pieces on your church’s website and found them very moving. Living in an area without large numbers of Lebanese or Syrians, attending a Melkite liturgy is not ordinarily possible, but the next time I travel to the Bay area for work I will look at flying in early so that I can travel down to Los Gatos to attend the liturgy presented in such a beautiful way.

Thanks again for the information, and BTW you have a lovely family. I can never get all my children to take a picture without ones of them scowling at their siblings.

 

[Usige]

Actually, this is a wonderful example of why chant is so uncommon.

Once upon a time, chant was seen as being objectively fitting to worship God for very precise philosophical and theological reasons.

These days, we’ve gone in the direction of the subjective, and if I happen to like a particular form of music, then it is good and beneficial. If I don’t, then it must be bad and should be avoided. My own pleasure is the standard, and everything must conform to that, rather than my having to conform to something outside of myself.

The idea that chant could be a better form of music on an exterior level is completely alien to our way of seeing things. And so, like many other things, it was thrown away.

That follows with my own thoughts. In an effort to embrace inculturation, we have a situation where the liturgy conforms to the dictates of the secular world instead of the people being formed by the liturgy. Is that good or bad? Personally I think it makes worship something that is no longer set apart, but rather is a poor attempt to merge the secular with the sacred. I beleive the thought was that by allowing local variation that we could move the sacred into the secular sphere, but instead it seems like it has remove the barriers where it often seems that the secular dilutes the sacred. I know that is not universal to everyone’s experience, but traditional forms of liturgical music (whether chant or sacred polyphony) seems to bring a hush across cultures where people seem to instinctively know that they are entering into the sacred. Many of the hymns and musical stylings do not seem to have the same cross cultural effects. The words might point to the sacred, but the music itself does not.

And yes, for detractors, I know that even older hymns from 200+ years ago often were influenced by the profane. I am simply saying that there is something about chant, in particular, that speaks of prayer in a way that hymns do not. That is why a Catholic who hears a Buddhist monk chanting will often quiet and still even if they do not know why. The same stillness happen with Jewish, Hindu or Native American chants. It is as if the soul is tuned to hear various chant styles and knows that it is an uplifting of the soul in worship.

 

[FatherSebastian]

Thank you, Father. Yes, I am talking about tradition that ties us back centuries and not tradition that ties us back to last year.

Your explanation and stories kind of reaffirm the point in my original post; namely that Latin Catholics do not maintain a strong tie to our liturgical roots. While the situation in the Roman rite is not quite as… dynamic (?)… as your friend “John” has, it does seem to be similar from a liturgical music stand point. While there are a set of instructions for various parts of the Mass, they are often given with an option that includes alius cantus aptus (other suitable chant). This means that instead of the introit we get a processional hymn; instead of the offertory antiphon we get a hymn; instead of a communion antiphon? you guessed it, we get a hymn.

Our pastor often says “If we had chanted the introit you would have heard …” He will also chant the Doxology (“Per ipsum et cum ipso”) following the Eucharistic prayer, but instead of a chanted Amen we use a slightly syncopated version so that the liturgical music is not consistent. Given that he does chant and mentions chanting the propers at various times, I would not say that it is always the pastor in the Roman rite that drives the decision to use alius cantus aptus. I often wish that we had a more tightly structured liturgy as you describe so that we don’t have pastor, music director and liturgy committees that change the tone of a given Mass as suits their internal logic.

I did get a chance to listen to a number of pieces on your church’s website and found them very moving. Living in an area without large numbers of Lebanese or Syrians, attending a Melkite liturgy is not ordinarily possible, but the next time I travel to the Bay area for work I will look at flying in early so that I can travel down to Los Gatos to attend the liturgy presented in such a beautiful way.

Thanks again for the information, and BTW you have a lovely family. I can never get all my children to take a picture without ones of them scowling at their siblings.

I couldn’t agree more. I look forward to seeing you someday…God willing.

 

[pnewton]

We chant the Gloria, Sanctus and Agnus Dei in Latin at every Mass. Occasionally the Pater Noster as well. Our parish has done this for years and we sound pretty good.

We have been doing that during Lent for a few years, though in English. That way when we slip into Latin during bilingual services, the music is already in everyone’s head. We use Jubilate Deo.

 

[KD8TZC]

This is an interesting thread and I’m glad I stumbled upon it. I have to admit, I have never heard the entire mass chanted, but I did attend a mass once where the priest chanted the entire Liturgy of the Eucharist. It was absolutely amazing and beautiful.

I asked my pastor why more priests don’t do this and his answer was quite straight forward. Not all priests are good singers. Possibly this is something that is lacking in our educational system before they get to the seminary or maybe it isn’t something they concentrate on at the seminary.

I am in formation now for the diaconate, and one of the things they ask us to do is be a cantor. I have to admit, I was terrified to do this, but after doing it a few times, I am more comfortable. If I am ordained someday, God willing, I doubt the Church that I am assigned to would want to hear me be cantor or do the Exsultet though. I was not blessed with a good voice.

Peace

 

[pnewton]

I asked my pastor why more priests don’t do this and his answer was quite straight forward. Not all priests are good singers. Possibly this is something that is lacking in our educational system

Education doesn’t trump being tone deaf, unfortunately. Some people can sing, some can’t. They do teach it, but there are still some priests who have to kind of grit their teeth to get through parts that require chanting. I actually admire those guys more than the one’s with a good voice. It takes great courage and humility to hold yourself out like that.

 

[Usige]

Education doesn’t trump being tone deaf, unfortunately

That’s true, but I remember a choir director that said he had only had 2 people out of thousands over 40 years that he couldn’t teach to sing at some level. They might not have been great, but the vast majority of people are not tone deaf.

I think there is this idea that you have to be a great, or at least fairly good, singer to chant and that simply is not the case. As long as someone can hear intervals and approximate them, they can be taught to do simple chants. One of the worst ways to improve is to never try.

 

[FatherSebastian]

Education doesn’t trump being tone deaf, unfortunately. Some people can sing, some can’t. They do teach it, but there are still some priests who have to kind of grit their teeth to get through parts that require chanting. I actually admire those guys more than the one’s with a good voice. It takes great courage and humility to hold yourself out like that.

Though some people, and it is very rare, are actually tone deaf, that cannot anatomically distinguish tones, most people who have trouble singing are simply tone unaware. They haven’t developed the skill. That can be fixed through an hour or two of piano lessons.

 

[Usige]

I am in formation now for the diaconate, and one of the things they ask us to do is be a cantor. I have to admit, I was terrified to do this, but after doing it a few times, I am more comfortable. If I am ordained someday, God willing, I doubt the Church that I am assigned to would want to hear me be cantor or do the Exsultet though. I was not blessed with a good voice.

Our formation class has all be told that we **will **learn to sing the Exsultet and are expected to sing it after ordination (unless another deacon is available or we’re asked specifically not to ). To that end we are supposed to be practicing it every year of formation. The formation director told us we don’t have to be perfect, but it does need to be done in a way that we “pour” our prayers into it.

 

[pnewton]

That’s true, but I remember a choir director that said he had only had 2 people out of thousands over 40 years that he couldn’t teach to sing at some level. T

Though some people, and it is very rare, are actually tone deaf, that cannot anatomically distinguish tones, .

I must just have really bad luck then! Thanks for the reminder to avoid making conclusions out of my own limited data and/or confirmation bias. Maybe what I mean is not truly tone deaf, but after training can’t do much more than a sort of up and down, musically.

Okay, point taken. Jubilate Deo has like maybe four notes on most of it (Gloria, excluded). The Exultet is about the same. I used to have to sing it before our current Deacon was ordained. I am thankful to have him do it, and he gets better each year.

Back to the topic. If anyone is every interested in mixing in a little chant, Jubilate Deo had the tremendous advantage of having easy on-line versions that make learning it easy. Here is one such place.

ignatius.com/promotions/adoremus-hymnal/downloadable-mp3s.htm

 

[pnewton]

Okay, here is a story of my worst experience with this.

We sang the Gregorian Gloria for Holy Thursday in Latin. Holy Saturday, we did the regular English version, as we always do. We also sing the full English version for Easter Sunday. Now the priest thought it good, to tie the celebrations together, to introduce the Gloria on Easter by intoning “Gloria in excelsis deo,” but didn’t tell anyone. He did not expect us to sing it in Latin, but caught us flat-footed and befuddled. So, we took up the rest, in Latin, though we did not know it well, and did not have the music.

I had about twenty seconds before I got lost after the first half a dozen lines to scramble for the left over music from Thursday and pass it out to the choir…
… and I had a guitar around my neck.

I barely made it, but only because there was one lady who had it memorized. Never again do I let that music get too far away.