Why Noah's story is not borrowed from pagan flood stories

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There are at least 2 ancient pagan flood stories: The Gilgamesh Epic and the Atrathasis Epic, both originating in ancient Mesopotamia. Because both sources predate the source of Noah’s story, many scholars have concluded that Noah’s flood story was borrowed from these. However, consider the following objections:
  • When a historical event is retold to different audiences over time, the story generally becomes more mythical and embellished, and poetry and exalted language are used. It is the opposite when Noah’s and the pagan stories are compared. Noah’s story is simpler and told in a straightforward narrative, while the pagan stories are told in a more mythical and embellished style.
  • Noah’s story is monotheistic, and the characters are ethically moral. The pagan stories are polytheistic, and the characters are ethically capricious. The pagan gods are implied to be selfish, jealous of each other and lie to each other. Moreover, in the Atrathasis Epic the gods discover that due to the flood, they have wiped out their only source of food (people’s sacrifices) implying that they depend on humans.
  • The shape of the ark in Noah’s story is the only one that can be considered seaworthy, being rectangular and in dimensions similar to more modern cargo barges. The pagan stories describe an ark that is round or cubic, which would make an ark less stable for floatation and also more vulnerable to damage/overturning by wave impact.
It is therefore more likely that Noah’s story with its later source is, by Divine intervention, faithful to the actual historical event; while the pagan stories are versions modified to suit the polytheistic religion/culture of their audiences. At the same time, it is remarkable that the pagan stories confirm that a history-changing flood did occur.
 
I have read many first-hand accounts of early American pioneers who were kidnapped by Indians and forced to live with them for many years before they were rescued or escaped. Several of these accounts say that the Indians have a Noah-like flood story in their oral histories, so I have no doubt that there was a major world-wide flood, or series of floods, long ago. Probably happened at the end of the last ice age about 10000 years ago.
 
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Interesting. I did not know that Native Americans had such stories, but it makes sense that they would.
 
Good Evening Dan Defender: I think it would be best to go with probabilities. The Fertile Crescent, which includes the area of modern day Iraq, Palestine, Syria, Iran Cyprus, Jordan and Syria were all hit with devastating floods at the end of the last period of glaciation. When the glaciers melted. Therefore it is likely that all the cultures in that area had flood stories. The story of Noah has as many practical and logistical problems as any flood myth. For instance, if an anaconda from South America was able to brave the rigors of the Caribbean Sea, the Atlantic Ocean and the Indian Ocean to get to the place where Noah’s Arc was in order to save himself, he would have little need of Noah’s Arc as proven by the master seamanship that would be needed to get him to Noah. The same would be the case with a kangaroo who sailed the Pacific Ocean and Indian Ocean to get to Noah. The list of problems with the story goes on, but there is no cause to try and use reason to support a belief that was arrived at without reason in the first place.

All the best!
 
This list of problems looks like its limited to the travel of animals.
 
Well, that’s all that’s needed. The same would go for Eskimos, Aztecs, Aborigines and so on.
 
The post is not about the regional versus global flood. Or myth versus history. Those are separate topics. Suffice it to say that nothing is impossible to God. You have free will so you can of course believe what you want.
 
Sedona said:
The same would go for Eskimos, Aztecs, Aborigines and so on.
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No, it wouldn’t in the Biblical story, only Noah’s relatives were on the ark, not every race.
 
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The global flood is literally impossible to have occured - not because God couldn’t have caused one, but because it would have left behind geographic evidence - and there is none whatsoever.

There are only 2 tenable beliefs for a Catholic to hold - it was a local, regional flood which was the “whole world” in the eyes of those who experienced it and later recorded it… Or the entire Noah flood is purely mythological and has no actual historical basis.

The second option is tenable as a possibility, but unacceptable for a Catholic to hold because it contradicts perennial Church teaching.

So the only tenable option for a Catholic to take via the flood is a localized, regional, albeit massive flood.

For a Catholic to hold the Noah flood was literally global is as un-credible as for a Catholic to hold the Earth and Universe are only 6000 years old, or the Earth is flat, or the Sun rotates aroind the Earth… These are all absolutely untenable positions to hold in the face of overwhelming scientific evidence to the contrary.
 
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skepticalinquirer.org

Twenty-One Reasons Noah’s Worldwide Flood Never Happened | Skeptical Inquirer

Here’s a geologist’s critical analysis of false perceptions held by many creationists about the origin of the Grand Canyon and the age of the Earth.
skepticalinquirer.org skepticalinquirer.org
  1. Sand dunes with giant cross bedding occur in the Mesozoic rocks in Zion National Park and are further evidence that desert conditions occurred at the time of the supposed flood (Senter 2011; Collins 2017).
  2. Fossilized mud cracks occur in the Cambrian Tapeats Formation on top of the Precambrian Vishnu schist at the bottom of the canyon and indicate that drying conditions existed during the alleged worldwide Noah’s flood, and these drying conditions occurred at the very beginning of this supposed flood. Although mud cracks can also form in mud under water by compression that squeezes out water from the mud, such compression is not likely to occur during a flood. Moreover, fossilized mud cracks are found in other formations that were supposedly deposited during Noah’s flood, and these mud cracks occur in red shales that coexist with salt and gypsum layers. Therefore, these mud cracks were likely formed in deltaic mud flats that were exposed to the atmosphere where their iron-bearing minerals reacted with oxygen in the air to form red hematite (Collins 2006; Senter 2011; Hill et al. 2016).
  3. Raindrop prints occur in many places around the world, which could not have been formed or preserved if the muds (now in shales) containing these prints were deposited under water during Noah’s flood (Senter 2011; Hill et al. 2016).
  4. Nests of dinosaur eggs are found in several places around the world, and it is illogical that dinosaurs could have had enough time to create these nests and lay their eggs while they were fleeing from rising waters to reach higher ground (Senter 2011; Hill et al. 2016).
There is zero evidence for a worldwide flood, and a TON of evidence a worldwide flood never happened. It is absurd and untenable for a Catholic to hold to a literal worldwide flood - it’s on a level of a Catholic holding to geocentrism or flat earth or young earth.
 
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ChristMyLife said:
Nests of dinosaur eggs are found in several places around the world, and it is illogical that dinosaurs could have had enough time to create these nests and lay their eggs while they were fleeing from rising waters to reach higher ground (Senter 2011; Hill et al. 2016).
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I’m not sure that dinosaurs existed during the flood and those eggs could have been abandoned by the dinos.

Some of the evidence doesn’t really explain how they reached their conclusions.
 
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This is just one website amd that’s just one argument.

There is a literal mountain of geological evidence which backs up the hypothesis that a global flood never occured.

You’re free to believe in a literal global flood, but IMO it’s irrational in the face of scientific evidence.

Personally I hold to a large, ancient, regional flood that was considered to be the “whole world” by those who experienced it and passed down the tradition.
 
Here’s a possible candidate for the actual Flood of Noah:

abcnews.go.com

Evidence Noah's Biblical Flood Happened, Says Robert Ballard

In an interview with Christiane Amanpour for ABC News, Dr. Robert Ballard, one of the world's leading underwater archaeologists, talked about his findings. His team is scouring the depths of the Black Sea in Turkey in search of traces of an ancient civilization hidden underwater since the time...
abcnews.go.com abcnews.go.com
 
Guys, the regional versus global flood is off topic. Please stop derailing my thread. Thanks.
 
Dan_Defender said:
, the regional versus global flood is off topic. Please stop derailing my thread. Thanks.
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Sorry.

Anyways - whether elements of the story recounted in Genesis are directly related textually to other cultures flood stories I do not know…

However, the fact that all these cultures DO in fact tell very similae stories, to my mind, is evidence that there was a LARGE, CATASTROPHIC flood early in mans history that left an indelible mark on humanity.

@Start - start a new thread if you want to discuss the global vs regional flood debate more in depth.
 
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ChristMyLife said:
There are only 2 tenable beliefs …
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Incorrect, on several levels, scripturally, scientifically, geologically, etc,

http://nwcreation.net/noahlegends.html



Thomas Aquinas on the Globality of the Fire to come and Flood that came [Summa Theologica, Suppliment, Question 74]…

"Article 3. Whether the fire whereby the world will be cleansed will be of the same species with elemental fire? … it is declared that the fire of the judgment will rise as high as the waters of the deluge ; … following Augustine, say that "just as the deluge resulted from an outpouring of the waters of the world, so the fashion of this world will perish by a burning of worldly flames " (De Civ. Dei. xx, 16). … by the Divine power … the fire that will burn the surface of this world will result. …"

"…Further, a gloss on 2 Thessalonians 1:8, "In a flame of fire giving vengeance," says: "There will be in the world a fire that shall precede Him, and shall rise in the air to the same height as did the waters of the deluge ." But the waters of the deluge did not rise to the height of the higher heavens but only 15 cubits higher than the mountain summits (Genesis 7:20) . Therefore the higher heavens will not be cleansed by that fire. …"

"…Reply to Objection 2. Peter explains himself to which heavens he refers. For before the words quoted, he had said (2 Peter 3:5-7): "The heavens . . . first, and the earth . . . through water . . . perished . . . which . . . now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire unto the day of judgment." Therefore the heavens to be cleansed are those which before were cleansed by the waters of the deluge , namely the aerial heavens. …"

"…Further, this final cleansing that will be effected by fire will correspond to the first cleansing which was effected by water …"

"…the authority of Scripture, because it is written (2 Peter 3:7) that those heavens are "kept in store unto fire," which were cleansed by water; and Augustine says (De Civ. Dei xx, 18) that "the same world which perished in the deluge is reserved unto fire ."…" [ The Summa Theologica of St. Thomas Aquinas
Second and Revised Edition, 1920
Literally translated by Fathers of the English Dominican Province
Online Edition Copyright © 2008 by Kevin Knight
Nihil Obstat. F. Innocentius Apap, O.P., S.T.M., Censor. Theol.
Imprimatur . Edus. Canonicus Surmont, Vicarius Generalis. Westmonasterii.
APPROBATIO ORDINIS
Nihil Obstat. F. Raphael Moss, O.P., S.T.L. and F. Leo Moore, O.P., S.T.L.
Imprimatur. F. Beda Jarrett, O.P., S.T.L., A.M., Prior Provincialis Angliæ
MARIÆ IMMACULATÆ - SEDI SAPIENTIÆ ] - http://www.newadvent.org/summa/5074.htm


 
ChristMyLife said:
However, the fact that all these cultures DO in fact tell very similae stories, to my mind, is evidence that there was a LARGE, CATASTROPHIC flood early in mans history that left an indelible mark on humanity.
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I agree with that wholeheartedly. I wouldn’t say very similar but yes there are similarities.
 
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