Why non-Catholics like New International Version Bible

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This is not a flame bait thread.
I’m just curious what are the things that non-Catholics like New International Version so much.

When I was reading it, I found some verses to be completely out from the original meaning. Then I thought it was because it’s Protestant’s Bible that it’s normal to have different meaning from the Catholics. But before I conclude it, I do some quick research, on “NKJV, KJV and Young Literal Translation”. Compared it, and found even other bible are closer to Catholic’s Bible, if not the same. I do not know how “literal” is the Young Literal version but I assume it’s direct word by word translation.

And then I came across to a website, a person is giving Bible ‘marks’ for their translations.
This person gave New American Bible 60%.
New International Version gets 90%.
KJV and NKJV get 100%.

And it really starts to puzzle me, what is the thing that some like NIV so much that even NAB gets lower mark, when NAB comes closer to KJV? (Just my opinions, I might be wrong)
I think later in the post you quoted the person who was giving Bible ‘marks’ as being anti-Catholic. So one would hardly quote her as typically Protestant.

The reality is that most Protestants, as with most Catholics, just aren’t well versed enough in Bible accuracy to know which editions could be regarded as more accurate than others. The percentage of Protestants with a deep knowledge of source documents, manuscripts etc. would be quite small.

Most of them would just buy a Bible that appeals to them, and leave it at that. And they’d probably buy it on account of the way it ‘reads’, rather than whether some obscure passages here and there were as accurately rendered as they could be.

A lot of them like “The Living Bible”. But it’s strictly speaking not a Bible - it’s a commentary, in the form of paraphrased text.

From Wikipedia -
The Living Bible (TLB) is an English version of the Bible created by Kenneth N. Taylor. It was first published in 1971. Unlike most English Bibles, The Living Bible is a paraphrase. Mr. Taylor used the American Standard Version of 1901 as his base text.[1]
And apparently there is even a Catholic edition of “The Living Bible”.

I think you’ll find they like the NIV as they find it more readable. I prefer an English Bible and not the original Hebrew and Greek languages for the same reason.😃
 
My husband and I were evangelical Protestant for the first 47 years of our lives.

In most of the churches we were part of, NIV was the Bible of choice.

We hated it. The language is so wooden. IMO, it’s poor American English, very staid and dull.

We grew up during a time when NASB was the Bible of choice, and to this day, I still prefer it. The Catholic RSV is very similiar to the NASB, so it’s my Bible of choice now that I’m Catholic.
 
In the last 40+ years…I have used the KJV…first Bible my mom gave me for my birthday…used KJV 'till the NASB came out…the NASB was my Bible of choice for most of my 20’s…I do like the NIV too…but for study, I use the RSV Oxford Study Bible with Apoc/Duet Expanded edition…I’ve used this Bible for over 25 years.
 
Generally all the translations are a little bit, if not a lot, up for auction;meaning that the more diverse they are the mode room for user error! Babel…

The world says you should not judge a book by its cover,the bible would say,live not according to the worlds ways.

JERUSALEM is our crux,so Jerusalem could be a pointer on any decision on choice, if you feel you really believe you have one.

Plus to want/try to learn one off the major languages could help your need to be as truthful as possible,to the given agenda of your life/circumstance!!
 
I only provide the link to answer your question about passages.
bereancall.org/newsletters/foundations.htm

Yes manuscripts. Goodness, that was a mess up. One of many reasons we consider the critical texts to be unreliable is the vast amount of differences between the primary texts used.
I don’t want to be contrary, but this reasoning doesn’t hold water, so to speak. There are thousands of manuscripts available to us. They are generally grouped into families of Byzantine and Alexandrian. To say that one manuscript leaves out a certain number of words begs the question of what is the standard? How many words does English need to say something vice how many words does the Hebrew, Greek or need? Anyone who is bilingual will tell you that it matters a great deal. Such is the nature of human language.

Also, if every manuscript was exactly the same, then Christian scholars would be accused of tampering with the evidence. This is how Bart Ehrman is making a fortune. He has people convinced that if God really said something, then it would be the exact same thing in every manuscripts. What he fails to take into account is the fact that we have so much evidence for the truth of faith, that we should rejoice in the truth that we have. It’s really a miracle that people who were copyists and lived thousands of miles away from each other still have the same meaning. It doesn’t matter how many words it takes to say something. Think of it, people who did not know each, still came up with essentially the same manuscripts. Ehrman is wrong. The fact that we have all these manuscripts from all over the world is proof positive of God’s handiwork.

I believe every Christian, whether Catholic or Protestant should consider the work of Desiderious Erasmus, without whom, we’d not have the rich history of the Bible on both sides.

I’ve studied this issue for since 1979. I’ll be happy to answer any questions that people have. But don’t be fooled by arguments that account for ‘x’ number of words or added and deleted text. There are valid reasons for this.

God Bless
 
So is the RSV the best Catholic Bible to use? I have a Student NIV Bible that’s been with me for years now (didn’t realize it was meant for Protestants), but if it’s giving me a distorted perspective, I will lay it down. I just liked the very basic lessons in the front of every book. Is there a Student edition of the RSV? Not a study Bible, but one geared for younger people (I am NOT young but my catechesis stopped when I was 10 years old, so that’s my age as a Catholic, really).

Thanks for this thread, I’ve been wondering myself.
 
Actually, I quite like the NIV and wish they would publish a Catholic Edition. This however, will never happen. They’ve even stated on their website that they have no plans in the foreseeable future to translate the deuterocanon.
The problem with the NIV is that is was produced by Evangelicals with a bit of an anti-Catholic axe to grind.

A great example is their translation of the Greek work ‘paradosis’, traditions.

Whenever the NIV translators wanted to use paradosis in a positive way ( such as 1 Cor 11:12, they translate it as ‘teachings’. When they paradosis is used in a negative way, such as Matt 15:9, they translate it as ‘traditions’

To the NIV translators, ‘traditions’ are bad things. That demonstrates an anti-Catholic bias.
 
protestant bibles tend to take scriptures and define them so they have a meaning which most people can understand and my have some relavence to situations in their lives.Actually scriptures arent that easily translated.For instance no one can read the NT and understand it without having a thourough knowledge of the OT.Im not saying that the many different bibles on the market today is bad but that you cant depend on their accuracy in delivering the true intended meaning of scriptural passages they explain.Im of the opinion that any bible is better than no bible.(A Catholic scholar or theologian would disagree )Ones got to be careful not to accept the modern versions thereby shutting down their interest in seeking the truth.
 
The problem with the NIV is that is was produced by Evangelicals with a bit of an anti-Catholic axe to grind.

A great example is their translation of the Greek work ‘paradosis’, traditions.

Whenever the NIV translators wanted to use paradosis in a positive way ( such as 1 Cor 11:12, they translate it as ‘teachings’. When they paradosis is used in a negative way, such as Matt 15:9, they translate it as ‘traditions’

To the NIV translators, ‘traditions’ are bad things. That demonstrates an anti-Catholic bias.
Translating passages which agree with Evangelical teachings is not “anti-Catholic”…it is pro-Evangelical.
 
The problem with the NIV is that is was produced by Evangelicals with a bit of an anti-Catholic axe to grind.

A great example is their translation of the Greek work ‘paradosis’, traditions.

Whenever the NIV translators wanted to use paradosis in a positive way ( such as 1 Cor 11:12, they translate it as ‘teachings’. When they paradosis is used in a negative way, such as Matt 15:9, they translate it as ‘traditions’

To the NIV translators, ‘traditions’ are bad things. That demonstrates an anti-Catholic bias.
Do you have any evidence to support this assertion? I’d like to see itl. As I said, I’ve been studying Bible versions since 1979, more than 30 years and I’ve never come across such a statement.

I also find it very hard to believe. The KJV was translated from the Textus Receptus which was edited by Desiderious Erasmus FIVE times, he was Catholic priest. Erasmus also used portions of the Latin Vulgate if he could not find manuscripts to support certain parts of the TR.

I’ll keep an open mind however, if you can produce the facts here.

Also 1 Corinthians 11:12 says this: For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God.

So where is the word ‘teachings’ here? For that matter neither is the word “traditions”. What am I missing?

Matthew 15:9 (Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition)
9And in vain do they worship me, **teaching doctrines **and commandments of men.

Matthew 15:9 (New International Version, ©2011)

9 They worship me in vain;
their** teachings **are merely human rules.’[a]”
 
So is the RSV the best Catholic Bible to use?
I find it a matter of preference really. Some like the DR, a…few like the NAB :D.
I just liked the very basic lessons in the front of every book. Is there a Student edition of the RSV? Not a study Bible, but one geared for younger people (I am NOT young but my catechesis stopped when I was 10 years old, so that’s my age as a Catholic, really).
Not sure of a RSV-CE student bible but Scott Hahn’s bible study series is very good and very assessable even to theological nitwits such as myself. 👍 I’ve got his study on the Gospel of John, the Book of Acts and Romans and all were very good. I have heard thought that the series has been released in one book so you don’t have to buy them individually. The NT that is since, AFAIK, he has not gotten to the OT yet.

God bless
 
I only provide the link to answer your question about passages.
bereancall.org/newsletters/foundations.htm

Yes manuscripts. Goodness, that was a mess up. One of many reasons we consider the critical texts to be unreliable is the vast amount of differences between the primary texts used.
What do you mean “the primary texts”? You mean the later Byzantine texts? The purpose of critical texts is that they are a combination of all known texts, since copying is something that is very exact (even today, try copying a few pages from a book, likely as not you’ll make a minor mistake). We can see what is different.

Now don’t get me wrong, I’m not a fan of the NIV (I find the translation overly simplistic at times), and do like the KJV (mostly for its poetic language), but I think claiming that it is better based on things that couldn’t possibly have been in early manuscripts (like the trinitarian formula) is a bit off.
 
I did not realise how serious the error is the Protestant Bibles.
Now google search engine and google translation available, one can just hit the search button to do any research.

First, the protestant bibles, they delete “among women” in Luke 1:28, and changed the “full of grace” to “you are favored”.

Then I was opinion that Greek Bible is always the most accurate Bible (I can’t read greek, but I used to have the idea that no one translates Greek bible. All they have to do is to copy. With computer available since 80’s, all we have to do is type.

But that’s not the case. Even some Greek Bible is biased toward Protestant. They delete the word “among women”. In Greek Bible.

I would bet my life on “Greek Orthodox” Bible since I just trust them more, as I see they didn’t delete any word.

Also, although Hail means Greetings, changing hail to greetings makes a big differences.
 
I did not realise how serious the error is the Protestant Bibles.
It depends on the translation. None are perfect. But some Protestant translations are quite good. (With reference to the OP, the NIV is not that great).
Now google search engine and google translation available, one can just hit the search button to do any research.
Online resources are fantastic. Studylight has some great resources available for free, and there’s a variety of interlinear sites that provide direct links to lexical information and concordances.
First, the protestant bibles, they delete “among women” in Luke 1:28
Some manuscripts have “among women;” others delete it. (Yes, I am talking about manuscripts, not translations). There is some discrepancy among the most ancient manuscripts that are available. As a result, some translations will include the phrase while others will put it in the footnotes. You can’t always see the footnotes if you’re just looking it up online, though.

Have you done any sort of in-depth study pertaining to these manuscripts and the degree of confidence that you can have in relying on the ones that do include this phrase? If you haven’t, I strongly suggest that you do the work. And no, selecting a preferred translation and calling it “authoritative” does not count as doing the work. Finding out what the different manuscripts are, exploring the nature of them, and learning about the ways in which people have interacted with them over the years is a better example of doing the work.
and changed the “full of grace” to “you are favored”.
The word in question is κεχαριτωμένη. The only way you get “full of grace” is by taking a detour into a Latin translation and then coming over to English. I don’t know any Latin (nor do I have much use for knowing it very well), but I do know that the appropriate English translation of this word is something like “thou that/you who are highly favored” or “favored one.” This has nothing to do with the denomination I belong to or the translation I prefer. It’s a strictly linguistic evaluation of what that Greek word means when it’s translated into English. Apparently, this is something that you haven’t accounted for, and that absolutely boggles my mind.

You do realize there are resources besides translations that work a little more like dictionaries, right? They usually have the word “lexicon” somewhere on them. You look up a Greek word and then it tells you the full English range of that word’s meaning. You need to use those resources every once in awhile.
Then I was opinion that Greek Bible is always the most accurate Bible…
The most accurate English translation as of right now is the ESV. These things do change over time, though.
But that’s not the case. Even some Greek Bible is biased toward Protestant. They delete the word “among women”. In Greek Bible.
Again, you’ve forgotten that the nature of Bible translation is not such that there’s one single Greek manuscript that everyone looks at and attempts to translate. There are many different copies of copies of copies from many different places and times, and among these different copies, there are slight differences in certain places. One of these places is Luke 28.

You’ve looked at all the different translations (though you may not have seen all the footnotes indicating that “some manuscripts include…”), but that’s the easy part. If you want to know more, you have to find resources that tell you about the different manuscripts. You need to find out how ancient the different manuscripts are and note where it was that this phrase initially started to be included. Take a look at what various experts in ancient writings have said about this over time. See what kind of evidence has come to light over the centuries and how that’s affected the way in which this passage has been viewed.

Again, that’s how you do the work. What you’re doing is assuming that you are a “good guy” and the Protestants are “bad guys,” and you’re looking for evidence to support “your thing” as opposed to “their thing.” This is comical for a variety of reasons. First, there are no good guys and bad guys, there’s just folks. Second, Protestant scholarship in general does not have a single monolithic POV regarding the degree of confidence they have in manuscripts including this phrase vs. manuscripts that don’t include this phrase. There are overall tendencies, but these have changed over time as the issue has been re-examined and new evidence has come to light. Catholic scholars are doing this same type of work, and you really don’t know what the general opinion is within either body of scholarship because you clearly haven’t checked.

You should really check on that. You might be a little surprised at what you find. You might even find that the majority opinion among Catholics is now the same as the majority opinion among Protestants. That happens sometimes.
I would bet my life on “Greek Orthodox” Bible since I just trust them more, as I see they didn’t delete any word.
In this specific example, I don’t think you should bet your life on any translation until you find out more information about the various manuscripts.
Also, although Hail means Greetings, changing hail to greetings makes a big differences.
The word in question can be found at Strong’s number 5463. It is the imperative form of a verb that means “rejoice (exceedingly)” or “be well, thrive.” Here though, it’s used in the imperative form, as a greeting or salutation. There is no one specific English greeting that corresponds exactly to this word, but any that succeed in conveying a sincere wish for joy or good tidings upon the recipient while also saying “Hi” are considered preferable.
 
This is not a flame bait thread.
I’m just curious what are the things that non-Catholics like New International Version so much.

When I was reading it, I found some verses to be completely out from the original meaning. Then I thought it was because it’s Protestant’s Bible that it’s normal to have different meaning from the Catholics. But before I conclude it, I do some quick research, on “NKJV, KJV and Young Literal Translation”. Compared it, and found even other bible are closer to Catholic’s Bible, if not the same. I do not know how “literal” is the Young Literal version but I assume it’s direct word by word translation.

And then I came across to a website, a person is giving Bible ‘marks’ for their translations.
This person gave New American Bible 60%.
New International Version gets 90%.
KJV and NKJV get 100%.

And it really starts to puzzle me, what is the thing that some like NIV so much that even NAB gets lower mark, when NAB comes closer to KJV? (Just my opinions, I might be wrong)
At the time when I was completely anti-catholic, there were 4 reasons:

1: It is easy to read.
2: Their bibles are pretty.
3: The study bible was awesome for its notes and maps.
4: It wasn’t Catholic.

My mind has changed since then…😃
 
This is not a flame bait thread.
I’m just curious what are the things that non-Catholics like New International Version so much.
I think the popularity of the NIV among evangelicals is due to the fact that the NIV has been incorporated into a number of popular study Bibles that evangelicals like (NIV Life Application Study Bible, NIV Quest Study Bible, etc. etc.) Ironically, most of the translators (other than Mounce and Waltke) are unknowns in the world of Biblical Studies, and unsurprisingly, the resulting translation is actually quite poor in a number of places.

If you’re really interested in the broad latitude that the translators seem to have had in their work, take a Greek and or Hebrew concordance of the NIV (you don’t need to know Greek or Hebrew to do this) and under each entry, look at the broad range of translation choices the translators have made with each word. Then, if you begin looking at some of the words in their contexts, you’ll begin to grasp just how much the translation has been theologized to fit the Evangelical perspective.
 
The word in question is κεχαριτωμένη. The only way you get “full of grace” is by taking a detour into a Latin translation and then coming over to English. I don’t know any Latin (nor do I have much use for knowing it very well), but I do know that the appropriate English translation of this word is something like “thou that/you who are highly favored” or “favored one.” This has nothing to do with the denomination I belong to or the translation I prefer. It’s a strictly linguistic evaluation of what that Greek word means when it’s translated into English. Apparently, this is something that you haven’t accounted for, and that absolutely boggles my mind.
From Catholic Answers:

The traditional translation, “full of grace,” is better than the one found in many recent versions of the New Testament, which give something along the lines of “highly favored daughter.” Mary was indeed a highly favored daughter of God, but the Greek implies more than that (and it never mentions the word for “daughter”). The grace given to Mary is at once permanent and of a unique kind. Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle of charitoo, meaning “to fill or endow with grace.” Since this term is in the perfect tense, it indicates that Mary was graced in the past but with continuing effects in the present. So, the grace Mary enjoyed was not a result of the angel’s visit. In fact, Catholics hold, it extended over the whole of her life, from conception onward. She was in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence.
 
I find it a matter of preference really. Some like the DR, a…few like the NAB :D.

You have mentioned that you like the RSV (RSV CE) I believe. Are you able to make any comments concerning an NRSV CE?

I have only used the KJ, the Jerusalem, and the NIV (that does not have the deuterocanonical books).

The nearest town to my location did not have a very good selection. So, I am still shopping.

Thanks!
 
From Catholic Answers:

The traditional translation, “full of grace,” is better
Of course it’s better. Just ask a Catholic apologist. :rolleyes:
than the one found in many recent versions of the New Testament, which give something along the lines of “highly favored daughter.”
Highly Favored Daughter is one of the recent translations, it’s one of the poorer attempts at a good translation (though I wouldn’t call it awful), and there’s one thing this apologist fails to mention- it’s found in a more recent Catholic translation. The NAB- but not the most recent version; this is the one from 1973. That’s the only place where you’ll see “highly favored daughter.”

In defense of Catholic translations at large, though, that’s the only one that’s kind of bad. All the other ones are good- with the exception of the D-R, every Catholic translation says something like “you who are highly favored” or “highly favored one.” Go check- look in the more recent NAB, look in the New Jerusalem one, and there’s one more, what’s it called. I can’t remember. “Full of grace” is a Latin thing, though. It’s never been a good translation from Greek to English.
Mary was indeed a highly favored daughter of God, but the Greek implies more than that (and it never mentions the word for “daughter”).
Good call; that’s why there’s only one (ahemCatholicahem) translation that includes the word daughter (which has since been removed in the updated version). It’s highly appropriate to use the word “favored,” though- that’s what the angel said to her, and that’s what nearly every translation besides the Latin one says. That’s not to say the Latin is wrong- it’s entirely possible that the semantic range of the Latin word or phrase encompasses what is shown in the Greek but the English derivation of the Latin doesn’t quite capture it. That’s why anyone who knows what they’re doing will favor the most direct translation possible instead of taking a detour through another dead language on the way to your own.
The grace given to Mary is at once permanent and of a unique kind. Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle of charitoo, meaning “to fill or endow with grace.”
Charitoo is a verb, and the nature of verbs is that…they’re just verbs. Verbs do not include direct objects (ie., “of grace.”) In order for a direct object to be there, you have to actually use nouns that indicate a direct object. Grace is a noun, and as you can see from this phrase, it’s being used as a direct object. Again though, charitoo is a verb, and that verb is something like “favor” or “endow.” At best, you could say grace is implied by this…but you certainly can’t claim that the angel said anything about grace outright.

IOW, charitoo does not mean “fill or endow with grace.” Assuming we’re dealing with the first person singular, it means “I favor” or “I endow.” In the second person singular, it would be “You favor” or “You endow”…rather than “you favor with grace” or “you endow with grace.” In the second person singular with passive voice, perfect tense, and indicative mood, you’re be looking at “You who are highly favored.” And that’s what you’ll see in pretty much every modern English translation that actually translates Greek words into English- Catholic translations are no exception.
Since this term is in the perfect tense, it indicates that Mary was graced in the past but with continuing effects in the present.
Ahhh, “graced.” Now that is one creative way of making the word appear in verb form. Based on unbiased linguistic sources, though, “favor” is the preferred verb for this situation. And yes, it’s true that Mary was favored at some point in the past with effects that continued to the present- even to the point where she gave birth to the Son of God. That appears to be the end result of God’s special favor.

But last I checked, “favor” was never exactly synonymous with the Catholic idea of grace, was it? I mean, when was the last time you showed up at your parish in order to get some sacramental favor?
So, the grace Mary enjoyed was not a result of the angel’s visit. In fact, Catholics hold, it extended over the whole of her life, from conception onward. She was in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence.
Considering the stated purpose of the angel’s visit, it’s pretty clear that the main idea behind God’s special favor had to do with Mary’s role in bringing Jesus into the world. Funny how that works- an angel shows up and tells Mary that she’s favored, and then he goes on to tell her what that’s all about.

But I guess you could throw in a sinless life, assumption into heaven, and the ability to birth a child with an intact hymen if you’re feeling especially creative. Why not, right?
 
Every English Bible is a “Translation”

The Bible was not originally inspired with divisions by chapter and verse. The ancient manuscripts didn’t have them. One man, Cardinal Hugo de Sancto Caro, started to do this from 1244 to 1248 A.D. He did this while creating a concordance of the Latin Vulgate, in order to help people look up verses of the Bible. But the typical modern chapter divisions were apparently devised by Stephen Langton, who was an Archbishop of Canterbury in England. He started to do this around 1227 A.D. The Wycliffe English Bible did use them, as it was circulated in 1382.

As for the verses, one Jewish teacher, Mordecai Nathan, divided the Hebrew Old Testament into chapters in 1445. Later he and a scholar named Athias divided the Old Testament into verses in 1448. The system we see commonly today was put into place by Robert Estienne, or Stephanus who used the numbered verse system when printing the Bible in 1555 or 1551. Since the time of the Geneva Bible version (an English version published in Paris, 1560), which preceded the famous King James Version, nearly all Bible versions have used this same numbering system.

Most of the time, the numbering system works well for helping people look up Bible citations. Sometimes, however, the verses aren’t well divided and this can mislead readers. An interesting case appears in Revelation 20:5:

“But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.”
 
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