Why not ask Mary and the Saints for prayers?

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Gailgirl said:
Thanks AidanBradyPop for your post.

No, Jesus did not rebuke the lady in Luke 11. My point was that this was an occasion where he could have affirmed her veneration and status as co-mediatrix and one worthy of prayer. Yet He did not. In fact, he countered and said that those who observe the WORD and observe it are blessed. An even higher status than the subject of womb and breasts.

Perhaps you can help me find in Scripture where it instructs believers in Christ to pray to anyone other than God? I cannot find any verse that encourages, or even mentions, believers asking individuals who have passed onto glory for their prayers.

Sometimes I don’t make myself clear, and if this was the case concerning having someone pray for me, or me praying for others, I apologize. We are told to pray for others. The prayers of the righteous availeth much, and these prayers are going to God Himself. This is not the issue. The issue is praying TO a departed person for THEIR intervention or prayers. This is the question. By saying they are alive in Christ may be true, but that does not warrant a prayer to them. And, another question is how do we know that who we are praying TO is not in Purgatory? Who holds that answer?
God bless…Gail
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Hey Gail,

Gary gave some wonderful posts in #235 and 236 I believe. You have to define prayer so I can understand what you are asking about. If you consider “prayer” as a form of worship then you will run into issues as a former Protestant. If you also consider prayer as a means of communication, then it is a bit different. One also has to remember that the Assumption of the Blessed Mother. She did not die as you speak about others who cannot hear us. Every faithful Catholic should at least agree on that. Right?

catholic.com/tracts/praying-to-the-saints A wonderful link to check out and read. I highly suggest reading this and the links Gary provided and then we can gladly go into more details on this! 👍

Thanks Gail and God blessings be upon you!
 
berk60 said:
The bible certainly does condone praying for one another in the living but it doesn’t condone praying to the dead for intersecession. Look how things went when Saul summond up the dead prophet Samuel.
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First of all, Mary and the Saints and the Angels are not dead. They are alive in the Spirit.

Second, where does the Bible say that it is not condone praying for our Spiritual brethren for intercession in the same manner we do for the ones in the flesh?
 
berk60 said:
The bible certainly does condone praying for one another in the living but it doesn’t condone praying to the dead for intersecession. Look how things went when Saul summond up the dead prophet Samuel.
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Have you ever prayed for a dearly departed? Have you ever spoken to a loved one who has left this world? A grandparent or friend?

If your Protestant pastor as everyone in the congregation to pray for a beloved member, would you?

1 Tim 2:1-2 - because Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5), many Protestants deny the Catholic belief that the saints on earth and in heaven can mediate on our behalf. But before Paul’s teaching about Jesus as the “one mediator,” Paul urges supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people. Paul is thus appealing for mediation from others besides Christ, the one mediator. Why?

Matt. 17:1-3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30-31 – deceased Moses and Elijah appear at the Transfiguration to converse with Jesus in the presence of Peter, James and John (these may be the two “witnesses” John refers to in Rev. 11:3). Nothing in Scripture ever suggests that God abhors or cuts off communication between the living in heaven and the living on earth. To the contrary, God encourages communication within the communion of saints. Moses and Elijah’s appearance on earth also teach us that the saints in heaven have capabilities that far surpass our limitations on earth.

John 2:11 - in fact, it was Mary’s intercession that started Jesus’ ministry. His hour had not yet come, yet Jesus responds to Mary’s intercession. Even though He could do it all by Himself, God wants to work with His children.

I could go on and on. 👍
 
Ok, I think there is a confusion with the “to” and the “for” when we pray.

I pray for my brethren in the flesh and in the spirit to intercede for me to the Triune God.

I only pray to the Triune God.
 
Isaiah45_9 said:
Ok, I think there is a confusion with the “to” and the “for” when we pray.

I pray for my brethren in the flesh and in the spirit to intercede for me to the Triune God.

I only pray to the Triune God.
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👍👍👍👍
 
Gailgirl said:
I find this thread on praying to Mary/Saints extremely interesting. I mentioned before how I struggle with the entire idea of praying to a departed Saint or Mary. I struggle because prayer is a form of worship. Intercessory prayer, lifting up a fellow believer or praying for someone else is not praying TO someone who has passed away. I am petitioning God, who through my Savior has separated the “veil” so I may do so. I realize many of my brothers/sisters do not have a problem with this, but to me it is an item that I cannot find a Scriptural basis for. Thanks to those who lovingly try to help, but the Revelation verses do not solve the issue.
Also, although I love Mary, indeed blessed among women, but where is she exalted and given the status in Acts and the other New Testament epistles that many of you are writing about? To quote an early Church saint and his views on Mary does little to convince me that she is to be prayed to and given the exaltation that many of you are confidently advocating. In fact, when the woman in Luke 11 cried out to my Lord, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts that nursed You,” Jesus did not confirm that Mary was deserving of any special adoration. This would have been a good time to add to the woman’s declaration, or even agree with it. But no, Jesus Himself said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who the word of God, and observe it.”
God bless you all.
Gailgirl
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Well, there you go then. No one is going to make you believe anything you are not prepared to believe. It is not anyone’s job to do that. If God is not revealing an understanding to you Himself about His word then that is as far as you go. So be it. It is wonderful that you have a personal relationship with the Trinity and you are participating in the sacraments. God bless you in your life long journey.
 
berk60 said:
The bible certainly does condone praying for one another in the living but it doesn’t condone praying to the dead for intersecession. Look how things went when Saul summond up the dead prophet Samuel.
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Where does it exactly say not to pray for intercession? Chapter and verse?

Samuel contacted a witch, not pray for intercession.
 
In what part of the Bible does Mary Ascend?

Prayer:

1.A solemn request for help or expression of thanks addressed to God or an object of worship.

If I’m praying TO someone, it is worship. Ideally, I pray only to one of the Trinity.

I may pray FOR all equals in the Family of Man (alive or ‘in holding’), and those prayers are intercession. I suspect that praying for others helps us to be less selfish. Just as I am not forgiven if I don’t forgive first, I cannot ask and receive without also praying for others to receive as good or better than what I ask for myself. When I desire that someone else be Blessed by God with something, God will Bless me also in some way if it is in Biblical accord.

If I didn’t pray to Teresa of Calcutta while she was living - why would I pray to her after she died? (Even if she becomes officially sainted.) She is not a Living God! Please don’t get me wrong - the saint status gives me uplifting accounts of blessed lives for my spiritual consideration. Otherwise, they would just fade into oblivion. Examples of those who attained great Favor are wonderful to read and make me aspire to be more vigilent in my walk.

To me, it would make more sense to pray to Lucifer or Jezzebel - they are living gods - than to pray to the dead. Luc and Jezz are capable of imitating God’s Gifts (though I’ve never heard of them being capable of Divine Forgiveness).

Praying to officially sainted people obviously fills some psychological need, but I don’t understand the factors involved because I never had the desire to do it. Wait, I can think of one possibility. I didn’t grow up with faith in people, therefore it was easier for me to believe in fairy tales/science fiction/unseen entities than regular people. If someone has more faith in the seen than the unseen, then I can see a bent toward praying to humans - tho it still sounds risky.

Fr. Pio ((Saint Pio (Pius) of Pietrelcina)), from reading his life story, was quite blessed and blessed many. He died. This is the crux of the matter, for me:

By Who’s Power was Fr. Pio blessed, and By Who’s Power did he extend that blessing and healing to others? Fr. Pio is not the Source.

The heart is deceitful beyond all things; the devils are deceitful beyond all measure. Why take chances and possibly be praying to an imposter? If our heart is right, the Holy Spirit will ‘convert’ our prayers before winging them up to God; I just think it more prudent to be particular (greater margin of safety and surety).
 
Jeanne1184 said:
In what part of the Bible does Mary Ascend?

Prayer:

1.A solemn request for help or expression of thanks addressed to God or an object of worship.

If I’m praying TO someone, it is worship. Ideally, I pray only to one of the Trinity.

I may pray FOR all equals in the Family of Man (alive or ‘in holding’), and those prayers are intercession. I suspect that praying for others helps us to be less selfish. Just as I am not forgiven if I don’t forgive first, I cannot ask and receive without also praying for others to receive as good or better than what I ask for myself. When I desire that someone else be Blessed by God with something, God will Bless me also in some way if it is in Biblical accord.

If I didn’t pray to Teresa of Calcutta while she was living - why would I pray to her after she died? (Even if she becomes officially sainted.) She is not a Living God! Please don’t get me wrong - the saint status gives me uplifting accounts of blessed lives for my spiritual consideration. Otherwise, they would just fade into oblivion. Examples of those who attained great Favor are wonderful to read and make me aspire to be more vigilent in my walk.

To me, it would make more sense to pray to Lucifer or Jezzebel - they are living gods - than to pray to the dead. Luc and Jezz are capable of imitating God’s Gifts (though I’ve never heard of them being capable of Divine Forgiveness).

Praying to officially sainted people obviously fills some psychological need, but I don’t understand the factors involved because I never had the desire to do it. Wait, I can think of one possibility. I didn’t grow up with faith in people, therefore it was easier for me to believe in fairy tales/science fiction/unseen entities than regular people. If someone has more faith in the seen than the unseen, then I can see a bent toward praying to humans - tho it still sounds risky.

Fr. Pio ((Saint Pio (Pius) of Pietrelcina)), from reading his life story, was quite blessed and blessed many. He died. This is the crux of the matter, for me:

By Who’s Power was Fr. Pio blessed, and By Who’s Power did he extend that blessing and healing to others? Fr. Pio is not the Source.

The heart is deceitful beyond all things; the devils are deceitful beyond all measure. Why take chances and possibly be praying to an imposter? If our heart is right, the Holy Spirit will ‘convert’ our prayers before winging them up to God; I just think it more prudent to be particular (greater margin of safety and surety).
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🤷
 
Jeanne1184, are you Catholic. If yes, do you practice your Catholic faith? Answering these questions for me would really help out a lot. Thanks
 
pablope said:
Where does it exactly say not to pray for intercession? Chapter and verse?

Samuel contacted a witch, not pray for intercession.
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We can only read from the bible what it says about prayer and use that example. We can not read into the bible what we want it to say. Such as praying for intercession.

Jesus prayed to God.-** Luke 6:12 And it came to pass in those days, that he went out into a mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God.**

Our request are to be made known to God, not someone else and then they make them known to God.- Philippians 4:6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God.

If we ask Him then He hears us. - 1 John 5:14 Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us.
 
berk60 said:
We can only read from the bible what it says about prayer and use that example. We can not read into the bible what we want it to say. Such as praying for intercession.
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So will you agree to live by that as well? I find it interesting that when a Protestant wants Scripture to prove a point, it is ok to “read” into Scripture, yet when it does not prove their point, it is a bad, bad thing. 🤷

Blessings

Dustin
 
aidanbradypop said:
So will you agree to live by that as well? I find it interesting that when a Protestant wants Scripture to prove a point, it is ok to “read” into Scripture, yet when it does not prove their point, it is a bad, bad thing. 🤷

Blessings

Dustin
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I believe that truth can stand examination.
 
berk60 said:
I believe that truth can stand examination.
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The truth according to a certain denomination or the Church that Christ established on earth? If one can read into Scripture and view it however it pleases them, then how do we know what is truth or not?
 
berk60 said:
I believe that truth can stand examination.
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Agreed. It has for +2,000 years, in the Catholic Church.

You haven’t answered my question, either:

You’ve said two entirely different things: That we can only approach and pray to Jesus on our own, and that it is ok for other people to pray for us.

Which is it? It can’t logically be both.
 
aidanbradypop said:
The truth according to a certain denomination or the Church that Christ established on earth? If one can read into Scripture and view it however it pleases them, then how do we know what is truth or not?
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We don’t serve a God of confusion. The bible is precise and can stand on it’s own. If someone is read something into scripture then by examining the entire bible deeper this deception can be brought to light and corrected.
 
Lochias said:
Agreed. It has for +2,000 years, in the Catholic Church.

You haven’t answered my question, either:

You’ve said two entirely different things: That we can only approach and pray to Jesus on our own, and that it is ok for other people to pray for us.

Which is it? It can’t logically be both.
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We ought to pray directly to God. People that are alive on earth can join us in our prayers directly to God. This is biblical but dead people interceding on our behave is not found in the bible.
 
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