Why not ask Mary and the Saints for prayers?

[pablope]

And what would those things in the Bible be but the ones you misinterpret. Humility to God is true humility. Humility to man’s word that is contrary to God 's word is error.

Well, the same question can be asked of you…are you sure you have not misinterpretated things in the Bible?

This is humility berk…the example of St. Paul:

Galatians 1:18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas and remained with him fifteen days.
Galatians 2:2 I went in response to a revelation and, meeting privately with those esteemed as leaders, I presented to them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. I wanted to be sure I was not running and had not been running my race in vain.

Who decides what is in error or not? Are you the one to make this decision?

 

[pablope]

The Bereans received the word in all readiness but they verified what was being told to them by searching the scriptures for the selfs just as we should do.

We shouldn’t believe everything the Church tells us if it isn’t found in the Bible. There is coming a day when a great deception will be brought for all those who don’t love the truth of God’s word.

By the way Berk…you missed this questions from post 493:

Quote:
Originally Posted by berk60
You have to be a Berean and search the scripture.

So what about the bereans? So everyone has to be a berean to search the scripture?

Maybe you are forgetting…they were first taught by St. Paul…and read the scripture with Paul’s instructions and oral tradition that he handed down to them.

And besides…maybe you are forgetting too…St. Paul had to undergo this before he went to them:

Galatians 2:2 I went in response to a revelation and, meeting privately with those esteemed as leaders, I presented to them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. I wanted to be sure I was not running and had not been running my race in vain.

Acts 13:
1 Now in the church at Antioch there were prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen (who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch) and Saul. 2 While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” 3 So after they had fasted and prayed, they placed their hands on them and sent them off.

If someone who claims to teach the gospel does not follow the example of St. Paul…is that a basis for rejection of his teaching?

Quote:
The verse that got us on this topic is referring to the spirit that is driving a human being. When we look at the verse it says,
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 1 John 4:1
These false prophets were people bringing a incorrect Gosple into the church. So the verse addresses that issue and says to test the message to see if it’s of God or a false prophet.

But how do we tell the false prophet from the true one? You still did not answer the question.

Agains…is the example of St. Paul one way to tell a false one?

Okay…it says to test the spirit…but then…it does not say how to test the spirit?

And who does the testing? You? The bible? someone?

And well…you cited 1john4:1…but it seems you did not read past the first verse…why don’t you read verse 6…and see what it says.

 

[guanophore]

 The Bereans received the word in all readiness but they verified what was being told to them by searching the scriptures for the selfs just as we should do.

Yes, we should “search the scriptures for the selfs”, but we are to do so in the light of what the Apostles believed and taught.

When we read them under the Apostolic instruction, as the Bereans did, it prevents us from twisting and distorting them out of ignorance.

“Then the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. When they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.” Acts 17[/qiuote]

Receiving the Apostolic teaching with “all readiness” means that we understand what is written in them through the lens of the Apostolic faith. Jesus taught His disciples how to understand the Scriptures. He does not expect that we each go to them on our own and try to reconstruct the faith from their pages. The faith is handed down, not extracted.
berk60;10822728:

We shouldn't believe everything the Church tells us if it isn't found in the Bible.

You have been misinformed about the Apostolic faith, berk60. Jesus did not leave any books, he left a Church. He left an authorative Church into which He breathed the Holy Spirit. The Church is infallible because He is the Head, and she is ensouled by the Holy Spirit. These are the elements that prevent her from error, not the human elements attached to her.

There is coming a day when a great deception will be brought for all those who don’t love the truth of God’s word.

Indeed, but God’s word is not confined to the pages of Scripture. God’s word is alive and well in His One Body, the Church. He has preserved His Word where He has placed it.

Isa 55:11
11 so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth;
it shall not return to me empty,
but it shall accomplish that which I purpose,
and succeed in the thing for which I sent it.

 

[berk60]

Shoud we do it ourselves, absent any guidance…and read the scripture for ourselves?

 

[berk60]

Yes, we should “search the scriptures for the selfs”, but we are to do so in the light of what the Apostles believed and taught.

When we read them under the Apostolic instruction, as the Bereans did, it prevents us from twisting and distorting them out of ignorance.
berk60;10822728:

“Then the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. When they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.” Acts 17[/qiuote]

Receiving the Apostolic teaching with “all readiness” means that we understand what is written in them through the lens of the Apostolic faith. Jesus taught His disciples how to understand the Scriptures. He does not expect that we each go to them on our own and try to reconstruct the faith from their pages. The faith is handed down, not extracted.

You have been misinformed about the Apostolic faith, berk60. Jesus did not leave any books, he left a Church. He left an authorative Church into which He breathed the Holy Spirit. The Church is infallible because He is the Head, and she is ensouled by the Holy Spirit. These are the elements that prevent her from error, not the human elements attached to her.

Indeed, but God’s word is not confined to the pages of Scripture. God’s word is alive and well in His One Body, the Church. He has preserved His Word where He has placed it.

Isa 55:11
11 so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth;
it shall not return to me empty,
but it shall accomplish that which I purpose,
and succeed in the thing for which I sent it.

I admire your faithfulness in letting Gods word continue to evolve at the hands of your church leaders but I also admire the faithfulness of the Jehovah’s Witness going door to door but that doesn’t make them right. As for me I’m just a simple man and I rely on God’s faithfulness of His word in the Bible. I trust with all my heart that though the Holy Spirit He will demonstrate that faithfulness to me through His word. I have all the Apostolic teaching needed in the Bible. God has given us everything we need for living a godly life. We have received all of this by coming to know him, the one who called us to himself by means of his marvelous glory and excellence. (2 Peter 1:3)

 

[johntenbrink]

this thread is in the non catholic section –

so non Catholics should have a different theology understanding than catholics

for example youtu.be/Q4tET7kJRRw

 

[johntenbrink]

interesting how you guys gang up on people in the non catholic forums

So why should a non catholic pray to mary and the dead saints

Quote:
Quote:
The verse that got us on this topic is referring to the spirit that is driving a human being. When we look at the verse it says,
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 1 John 4:1
These false prophets were people bringing a incorrect Gosple into the church. So the verse addresses that issue and says to test the message to see if it’s of God or a false prophet.
and as said earler–​

But how do we tell the false prophet from the true one? You still did not answer the question.

Agains…is the example of St. Paul one way to tell a false one?

Okay…it says to test the spirit…but then…it does not say how to test the spirit?

And who does the testing? You? The bible? someone?

And well…you cited 1john4:1…but it seems you did not read past the first verse…why don’t you read verse 6…and see what it says.

---

– so how do catholics tell the difference between a true prophetic work and a false prophetic word??

with all the Mary sightings all over the world – i seems to be a challange

just asking--

 

[guanophore]

pablope;10823059:

When searching the scripture use hermeneutics .

Indeed yes. And this is the hermeneutic that was used by the Bereans. Interpretation is the lens through which we understand what is written. Jesus intended us to understand it the way He taught His disciples to understand it. This is the hermeneutic used by the Bereans. They received the Apostolic message eagerly, and used what they were taught to understand what is written.

I admire your faithfulness in letting Gods word continue to evolve at the hands of your church leaders…

I think you misunderstand the nature of God’s word deposited in the Church. We are not at liberty to change or alter anything that is contained in the once for all deposit of faith. Public revelation was closed at the death of the last Apostle.

What evolves is our understanding of what we have received through the paradosis. We call this doctrinal development.

but I also admire the faithfulness of the Jehovah’s Witness going door to door but that doesn’t make them right. As for me I’m just a simple man and I rely on God’s faithfulness of His word in the Bible.

If you are a simple man, then you will be able to place your trust very simply in the Church founded by Christ. You will be able to do what the first hearers of the kerygma did:

Acts 2:41-42
42 They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.

The Apostles’ teaching is what has been infallibly preserved in the Church by the Holy Spirit, along with the prayers, the eucharist, and the apostolic succession.

You come from a faith tradition that has been separated from the Apostles’ teaching for 500+ years. You have received a truncated bible, and a truncated gospel as a result.

I trust with all my heart that though the Holy Spirit He will demonstrate that faithfulness to me through His word. I have all the Apostolic teaching needed in the Bible.

I trust the Holy Spirit too, berk, and I trust that He has led you here to CAF to learn the fullness of the Truth.

If all you needed was in the Bible, then Jesus would not have established a Church.

God has given us everything we need for living a godly life. We have received all of this by coming to know him, the one who called us to himself by
means of his marvelous glory and excellence. (2 Peter 1:3)

Yes, He has. it is found fully in His One Body, the Church.

Eph 3:10-11
… so that through the church the wisdom of God in its rich variety might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places.

This “just me and my bible” mentality is a contradiction of the Scriptures themselves, berk.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

The Bereans received the word in all readiness but they verified what was being told to them by searching the scriptures for the selfs just as we should do.

**Without **a Bible. Old Testament only. The New Testament did not exist.

We shouldn’t believe everything the Church tells us…

Then you can’t believe the Bible. It was through the Church and Her Councils that the Bible came about.

…if it isn’t found in the Bible.

Says who? And where is the book, chapter and verse that says that? Also, where is the book, chapter and verse that tells you what the Bible is?

There is coming a day when a great deception will be brought for all those who don’t love the truth of God’s word.

Amen! It already came to us. It’s called Reformed Theology in its many different and conflicting variations.

 

[guanophore]

this thread is in the non catholic section –

so non Catholics should have a different theology understanding than catholics

for example youtu.be/Q4tET7kJRRw

The thread is on Catholic Answers. Everyone posting on this site should have an expectation to get “Catholic Answers”.

And no, johntenbrink, non-catholics do not necessarily have a different theology understanding. On the contrary, we share more than we do not.

You posting of anti-Catholic links, however, does not further the discussion. I presume you have fallen pray to the calumny and errors of John MacArthur? Perhaps your post is your way of answering the thread question.

What if John is wrong? what if Mary, along with all the others who have fallen asleep in Christ, are alive and well in heaven, and can pray for us?

 

[guanophore]

interesting how you guys gang up on people in the non catholic forums

Oh John, that is not peculiar to here…we do it everywhere!

Come over to Apologetics if you really want to see some warfare!

So why should a non catholic pray to mary and the dead saints

You misquoted the OP (original post) John. Catholics believe the saints are alive and well in heaven. However, you misconstruction of the question seems to indicate why you, as a non-Catholic, would not pray to the saints. If you think they are “dead” in heaven, that explains a lot.

The verse that got us on this topic is referring to the spirit that is driving a human being. When we look at the verse it says,

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 1 John 4:1
These false prophets were people bringing a incorrect Gosple into the church. So the verse addresses that issue and says to test the message to see if it’s of God or a false prophet.
and as said earler–​

But how do we tell the false prophet from the true one? You still did not answer the question.

Agains…is the example of St. Paul one way to tell a false one?

Okay…it says to test the spirit…but then…it does not say how to test the spirit?

And who does the testing? You? The bible? someone?

And well…you cited 1john4:1…but it seems you did not read past the first verse…why don’t you read verse 6…and see what it says.

---

– so how do catholics tell the difference between a true prophetic work and a false prophetic word??

with all the Mary sightings all over the world – i seems to be a challange

just asking--

There are many ways to do this. No one who contradicts the Scriptures and the Teaching of the Church can be received as from God.

With the Apparitions of the blessed mother, the Church has a long and painstaking procedure that is followed. Among them is what we have received from the Jews:

Deut 18:22-19:1
2 If a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD but the thing does not take place or prove true, it is a word that the LORD has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; do not be frightened by it.

The Church waits to see of the words spoken come true.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Make sure we report, not feed, the trolls guys.
Makes it easier for me to clean up.

 

[StillCatholic]

I love our Blessed Mother. For many MANY years, non catholics had me spooked about her having me believe I was worshipping her, which I wasn’t, and treating her like a goddess.

But, she and her divine Son have cleared up the confusion for me. I’m so happy.

Lately, I’ve been musing over this interesting fact…the back and forth of maternal/fetal cells. Mother’s cells transferred to the fetus through the placenta and the fetal cells crossing over to the mother the same way.

So, here is Mary pregnant with the Son of God, He a humble fetus in her womb and cells being transferred back and forth. Do, you see what that means!?! My Lord and My God! What a profound honor! She was nurturing God Himself. Then after birth nursing Him. He was the very first person to cry out to her. How humbling IS God??? I love it. I want to be that humble.

Then, for something around 30 years they spend together…holding His hand as a toddler, helping Him to walk, teaching Him, and then when He is old enough, Joseph teaches Him the trade of carpentry.

So, then He goes back to the Heavenly Father from whence He came and what? The commandment to honor your mother and father no longer matters? You don’t think He had a special place in His kingdom for her?

Mary mother of God, I love you and thank you for being so gentle and patient with us.

 

[aidanbradypop]

That job is already taken by the Holy Spirit - the only one who can take us to Christ - after we agree to a major clean-up.

I know there are factions who advocate for a Quarternity instead of a Trinity but ‘adding one to the Trinity’ can’t be the plan. Or perhaps Mary plans to replace the Holy Spirit?

So I cannot introduce you to Christ if you are a non believer? You do not believe tha God uses us all to be a witness to those who do not believe?

 

[GaryTaylor]

I love our Blessed Mother. For many MANY years, non catholics had me spooked about her having me believe I was worshipping her, which I wasn’t, and treating her like a goddess.

But, she and her divine Son have cleared up the confusion for me. I’m so happy.

Lately, I’ve been musing over this interesting fact…the back and forth of maternal/fetal cells. Mother’s cells transferred to the fetus through the placenta and the fetal cells crossing over to the mother the same way.

So, here is Mary pregnant with the Son of God, He a humble fetus in her womb and cells being transferred back and forth. Do, you see what that means!?! My Lord and My God! What a profound honor! She was nurturing God Himself. Then after birth nursing Him. He was the very first person to cry out to her. How humbling IS God??? I love it. I want to be that humble.

Then, for something around 30 years they spend together…holding His hand as a toddler, helping Him to walk, teaching Him, and then when He is old enough, Joseph teaches Him the trade of carpentry.

So, then He goes back to the Heavenly Father from whence He came and what? The commandment to honor your mother and father no longer matters? You don’t think He had a special place in His kingdom for her?

Mary mother of God, I love you and thank you for being so gentle and patient with us.

I love this post, beautiful, it has that ring of the often denied “truth”.

 

[pablope]

pablope;10823059:

When searching the scripture use hermeneutics . As for the second question of where you can find the bible talking about a future delusion read 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12

Okay…but whose hermeneutics? Our own interpretation? Or do you use the oral instructions of those given such authority by the Apostles?

How do you think those Christians did it before there was a Bible? Before the protestants came on the scene and started claiming their own interpretations?

Should hermenuetics be done outside of the faith tradition that canonized and chose the Bible canon?

Here is 2thes2:

11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

And there is one way to prevent from being deceived and to prevent this coming delusion:

1John 4… 6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

Look at what has happened to the world of protestantism who had discarded this instruction from John…breaking into several thousand denoms.

 

[JordanRogers]

“Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.”

 

[pablope]

Well…you have church leaders to…do you follow every word he says to you every Sunday?

but I also admire the faithfulness of the Jehovah’s Witness going door to door but that doesn’t make them right.

And look at their interpretation of the Bible…without proper apostolic guidance…they had come up with different understanding.

Now look at your own situation…how is it different from the JWs when you interpret the Bible?

As for me I’m just a simple man and I rely on God’s faithfulness of His word in the Bible. I trust with all my heart that though the Holy Spirit He will demonstrate that faithfulness to me through His word.

Is the God’s word limited to the written word in the Bible?

I have all the Apostolic teaching needed in the Bible.

How do you know which is apostolic and which is not? Are you the decision maker for such things?

How do you know for sure? Is your declaration above free of error?

God has given us everything we need for living a godly life. We have received all of this by coming to know him, the one who called us to himself by means of his marvelous glory and excellence. (2 Peter 1:3)

That is right…it was given to the Church…not to the Bible.

Jesus also said our faith must grow like the mustard seed…how does the Bible make your faith grow from the mustard seed to the sturdy tree?

 

[TexanKnight]

guanophore;10823086:

Yes, we should “search the scriptures for the selfs”, but we are to do so in the light of what the Apostles believed and taught.

When we read them under the Apostolic instruction, as the Bereans did, it prevents us from twisting and distorting them out of ignorance.

I admire your faithfulness in letting Gods word continue to evolve at the hands of your church leaders but I also admire the faithfulness of the Jehovah’s Witness going door to door but that doesn’t make them right. As for me I’m just a simple man and I rely on God’s faithfulness of His word in the Bible. I trust with all my heart that though the Holy Spirit He will demonstrate that faithfulness to me through His word. I have all the Apostolic teaching needed in the Bible. God has given us everything we need for living a godly life. We have received all of this by coming to know him, the one who called us to himself by means of his marvelous glory and excellence. (2 Peter 1:3)

So, what did those Christians rely on before there was a Bible? I am just curious.

 

[TexanKnight]

When I was a child, I often did not go my father for requests. Often because he was not always available, but more often it was because it seemed if my mother asked him, he would readily say yes.

And if you look at the Old Testament Kings, the King’s Mother had a special position. One could petition the King through the King’s Mother.

That is how I feel about My Holy Mother Mary. I know I can go to my Heavenly Father, but how much more powerful is the request coming from The Blessed Mother? Just like my mother asking my father or the King’s Mother petitioning the King on behalf of the petitioner.

I LOVE that I have someone who can pray for me while I am also praying for me.

As to asking other Saints to pray for me…I guess if I can ask people on earth to pray for me, why can’t I ask the Saints to do the same?

We are so blessed to have the Saints and our Holy Mother praying for us!