Why not ask Mary and the Saints for prayers?

[Indifferently]

You miss the understanding of the Saint, its no different than, St Louis de Montfort.

“Let all, all be devout to the most blessed Virgin; and, after God, let us honor the most holy Virgin.Happy is the Christian who has the most blessed Virgin for him; and miserable is that Christian who has not the blessed Virgin on his side.The most blessed Virgin can obtain everything from God, because she is his true Mother, and is so much beloved by him; and she will do everything for us, because she is our Mother also, and loves us so much.Let us, therefore, always try to gain her friendship more and more; let us ingratiate ourselves with her more and more, by continually fostering in ourselves devotion towards her.Every day let us say her Rosary.Fast in her honor every Saturday.Observe the novenas and the fast before all her principal feasts.Practice some devotion also on all her smaller, even her smallest feasts.And let us, besides, in all our necessities, in all our misfortunes, have recourse to her, have confidence in her; and through her security in life, security in death, security through all eternity.”

A pity that this sort of attitude is not in evidence in the early undivided Church. YOu have quoted an 18th Century Roman Catholic priest as “evidence”? What authority does he have to pronounce these things exactly? Fathers? Councils? Scripture?

 

[GaryTaylor]

A pity that this sort of attitude is not in evidence in the early undivided Church. YOu have quoted an 18th Century Roman Catholic priest as “evidence”? What authority does he have to pronounce these things exactly? Fathers? Councils? Scripture?

To pronounce what things exactly? Another incorrect assumption on your part such as your “No one can enter Heaven unless by Mary” quote?

 

[GaryTaylor]

A pity that this sort of attitude is not in evidence in the early undivided Church.

"It becomes you to be mindful of us, as you stand near Him who granted you all graces, for you are the Mother of God and our Queen. Help us for the sake of the King, the Lord God and Master who was born of you. For this reason, you are called full of grace. Remember us, most holy Virgin, and bestow on us gifts from the riches of your graces, Virgin full of graces. " St Athanaius

Marys intercession has always been a known as it is a Mystery of the Church, and always has been.

I don’t see your point? There is “no” Doctor of the Church as shown to you above with the Saint quoted who taught and wrote “No one can enter Heaven unless by Mary”. Its non-existent, just as Mary worship is.

There’s no consecration, thus devotion, unless one is first in a State of Grace with “God”.

 

[Indifferently]

"It becomes you to be mindful of us, as you stand near Him who granted you all graces, for you are the Mother of God and our Queen. Help us for the sake of the King, the Lord God and Master who was born of you. For this reason, you are called full of grace. Remember us, most holy Virgin, and bestow on us gifts from the riches of your graces, Virgin full of graces. " St Athanaius

Marys intercession has always been a known as it is a Mystery of the Church, and always has been.

I don’t see your point? There is “no” Doctor of the Church as shown to you above with the Saint quoted who taught and wrote “No one can enter Heaven unless by Mary”. Its non-existent, just as Mary worship is.

There’s no consecration, thus devotion, unless one is first in a State of Grace with “God”.

I am not terribly sure if English is your first language or not, but you are not making much sense here, unfortunately. Do you have an authoritative source for the supposed quote from St Athanasius? I have read that much of the alleged patristic support quoted in “The Glories of Mary” are sourced from notorious forgeries.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I am not terribly sure if English is your first language or not, but you are not making much sense here, unfortunately. Do you have an authoritative source for the supposed quote from St Athanasius? I have read that much of the alleged patristic support quoted in “The Glories of Mary” are sourced from notorious forgeries.

No you made no sense, and you started with an incorrect assumption, now you would like to become insulting?

And then to boot since your are incorrect than the validity of the Saints prayer must be a forgery?

 

[Classicist]

The contempt shown toward the member “Indifferently”, in this thread, is contemptuous. He asks valid questions, and then people get snarky & bitter. Let him have his say, and reply with honesty, not jokes…

I am not terribly sure if English is your first language or not, but you are not making much sense here, unfortunately. Do you have an authoritative source for the supposed quote from St Athanasius? I have read that much of the alleged patristic support quoted in “The Glories of Mary” are sourced from notorious forgeries.

The various “quotes” from the Fathers in that book are scandalous today because they are not sourced. Though Liguori probably did not set out to deceive anyone, he obviously did not care about providing citations. Quite a few Catholic websites also do this, displaying a quote that’s clearly Tridentine in its theology, then attributing it to Augustine or Ambrose without any proof and without any reason to believe that they said it.

Absolute confidence in the “unanimous consent of the Fathers” can lead people to be very dishonest with facts. They say that the Fathers were all "C"atholic, and then they make up quotes to validate current teachings. True Catholics should rely on the Magisterium, not on quotes that might never have been written or spoken by anyone.

 

[GaryTaylor]

The contempt shown toward the member “Indifferently”, in this thread, is contemptuous. He asks valid questions, and then people get snarky & bitter. Let him have his say, and reply with honesty, not jokes…

What contempt?

 

[Classicist]

What contempt?

Regardless of how the other person posts, using the rolling-laughter smiley doesn’t help the seriousness of the conversation. Indifferently was being serious, and here everyone is treating him as if he’s a troll to be laughed at. Legitimate questions need real answers.

 

[Indifferently]

Thanks Classicist for your serious response. I did not intend to suggest that Ligouri was a deliberate deceiver, mainly to say that his sources might not be reliable.

I suspect this whole conversation might be slightly out of date anyway. I know Rome will never formally admit it, but the Tridentine framework and much scholastic thought really aren’t taught any more as dogma. I know no Roman Catholic who has ever heard a sermon on the “Treasury of Merit” or the various superstitious practises (like asking St Anthony to help you find your keys etc). It sort of survives as an unconscious folk religion among the laity (how many splashes of holy water shall I take? how many times should I genuflect to the tabernacle?), but that is more or less it.

Here is Pope Benedict on Justification by Faith:

"Dear Brothers and Sisters,

In our continuing catechesis on Saint Paul, we now consider his teaching on our justification. Paul’s experience of the Risen Lord on the road to Damascus led him to see that it is only by faith in Christ, and not by any merit of our own, that we are made righteous before God. Our justification in Christ is thus God’s gracious gift, revealed in the mystery of the Cross. Christ died in order to become our wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption (cf. 1 Cor 1:30), and we in turn, justified by faith, have become in him the very righteousness of God (cf. 2 Cor 5:21). In the light of the Cross and its gifts of reconciliation and new life in the Spirit, Paul rejected a righteousness based on the Law and its works. For the Apostle, the Mosaic Law, as an irrevocable gift of God to Israel, is not abrogated but relativized, since it is only by faith in God’s promises to Abraham, now fulfilled in Christ, that we receive the grace of justification and new life. The Law finds its end in Christ (cf. Rom 10:4) and its fulfilment in the new commandment of love. With Paul, then, let us make the Cross of Christ our only boast (cf. Gal 6:14), and give thanks for the grace which has made us members of Christ’s Body, which is the Church. "

Liguori was probably sincere in his methods and conclusions in declaring Mary “mediatrix of all graces” but those methods have largely been supplanted by the good old fashioned Gospel of Grace.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Regardless of how the other person posts, using the rolling-laughter smiley doesn’t help the seriousness of the conversation. Indifferently was being serious, and here everyone is treating him as if he’s a troll to be laughed at. Legitimate questions need real answers.

You read far to much into this. The laughter was the ironic reality that a “quote” simply doesn’t suffice. Isn’t that what happened in that conversation and “where” the laughter came? Or was that my imagination, and I don’t understand English?

 

[Lochias]

Regardless of how the other person posts, using the rolling-laughter smiley doesn’t help the seriousness of the conversation. Indifferently was being serious, and here everyone is treating him as if he’s a troll to be laughed at. Legitimate questions need real answers.

He’s been given the real answers, and instead has chosen to put his fingers in his hears and go “LA LA LA LA!”

To which I respond:



I have no time to waste on those who are here to insult, demean and look down their nose at other people. If Indifferently wants to adopt a major attitude adjustment and actually speak with come civility, I’ll consider a response.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Thanks Classicist for your serious response. I did not intend to suggest that Ligouri was a deliberate deceiver, mainly to say that his sources might not be reliable.

I suspect this whole conversation might be slightly out of date anyway. I know Rome will never formally admit it, but the Tridentine framework and much scholastic thought really aren’t taught any more as dogma. I know no Roman Catholic who has ever heard a sermon on the “Treasury of Merit” or the various superstitious practises (like asking St Anthony to help you find your keys etc). It sort of survives as an unconscious folk religion among the laity (how many splashes of holy water shall I take? how many times should I genuflect to the tabernacle?), but that is more or less it.

Here is Pope Benedict on Justification by Faith:

"Dear Brothers and Sisters,

In our continuing catechesis on Saint Paul, we now consider his teaching on our justification. Paul’s experience of the Risen Lord on the road to Damascus led him to see that it is only by faith in Christ, and not by any merit of our own, that we are made righteous before God. Our justification in Christ is thus God’s gracious gift, revealed in the mystery of the Cross. Christ died in order to become our wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption (cf. 1 Cor 1:30), and we in turn, justified by faith, have become in him the very righteousness of God (cf. 2 Cor 5:21). In the light of the Cross and its gifts of reconciliation and new life in the Spirit, Paul rejected a righteousness based on the Law and its works. For the Apostle, the Mosaic Law, as an irrevocable gift of God to Israel, is not abrogated but relativized, since it is only by faith in God’s promises to Abraham, now fulfilled in Christ, that we receive the grace of justification and new life. The Law finds its end in Christ (cf. Rom 10:4) and its fulfilment in the new commandment of love. With Paul, then, let us make the Cross of Christ our only boast (cf. Gal 6:14), and give thanks for the grace which has made us members of Christ’s Body, which is the Church. "

Liguori was probably sincere in his methods and conclusions in declaring Mary “mediatrix of all graces” but those methods have largely been supplanted by the good old fashioned Gospel of Grace.

The teaching authority, deposit of faith, is what the Church teaches. For example there is “no” patristic Saint who verifies his quotations of other Church Fathers. Maximus the Confessor in “Life of the Virgin” is a perfect example. He quotes St Athanasius, St Cyril of Alexandria and one other Saint whom I can’t recall without looking, and makes a statement “this is what we all believe”. These are broad sweeping statements without indication of “where” his understanding comes from. Which btw doesn’t exist nor does it in many early writings. And that’s 7th century.

To understand where a specific Saint is coming from the entirety of the specific writing is viewed in relation to the deposit of faith, public revelation. Saints alone are not the sole path of the Church though indeed many contributed to its present state.

Nevertheless the Saint [Maximus] still speaks clearly not only on Marion belief in his period, but in regards to the early Church as he indicates. While this also may not be declared by the ecumenical council in regards to every statement, its a window into early Church understanding of Marion cults. The Gospel of James is another work he quotes out of extensively.

The other example I gave you was later in St Louis de Montfort. Still here its incorrectly understanding the Saint to suggest he proposed a Mary alone path. Simply untrue as he clearly indicates in his work. I mentioned him since there is no more of a extreme example in Marion Devotion.

 

[berk60]

I pray directly to God without the intercession of saints since Jesus is our High Priest. He can sympathize with our temptations and needs because He was tempted in all ways so He knows what it’s like. I come directly to Jesus because that is where to obtain the grace. Is that not allowed for the Catholic to come this way for the dispensing grace? Or does it have to come through Mary and saint?

I find in Hebrews 4:14-16, "Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I pray directly to God without the intercession of saints since Jesus is our High Priest. He can sympathize with our temptations and needs because He was tempted in all ways so He knows what it’s like. I come directly to Jesus because that is where to obtain the grace. Is that not allowed for the Catholic to come this way for the dispensing grace? Or does it have to come through Mary and saint?

I find in Hebrews 4:14-16, "Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

And there is only one name which saves, Jesus Christ. There’s simply a deeper formation in Catholicism. When you say does Christ have to come through Mary, its self evident He already has. What God has to do isn’t relevant to the conversation. He can do anything, however, part of the anything He did do, was come to us through Marys intercession for us. Right?

 

[berk60]

And there is only one name which saves, Jesus Christ. There’s simply a deeper formation in Catholicism. When you say does Christ have to come through Mary, its self evident He already has. What God has to do isn’t relevant to the conversation. He can do anything, however, part of the anything He did do, was come to us through Marys intercession for us. Right?

The verse reads, “Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.” Hebrew 4:14-17

My question was, since I come myself boldly before the throne of grace can’t you also? Or do you need another intercessor besides yourself? I’m not referring to Christ coming through Mary but grace.

 

[GaryTaylor]

My question was, since I come myself boldly before the throne of grace can’t you also? Or do you need another intercessor besides yourself?

Of course, in fact you “must”.

All come before Christ in judgment. What path each takes in the Church may differ in relation up to the point where one stands before Christ. The Marion prayer is prayer to Christ in that there is no salvation without Christ. Mary intercedes just as with Her prayer before the Incarnation. She interceded for all of us, already. Why wouldn’t She be able to do this again? Doesn’t stand to reason. Her process of divinization increases from the Incarnation forward.

No private devotion to Mary is required.

 

[berk60]

Of course, in fact you “must”.

All come before Christ in judgment. What path each takes in the Church may differ in relation up to the point where one stands before Christ. The Marion prayer is prayer to Christ in that there is no salvation without Christ. Mary intercedes just as with Her prayer before the Incarnation. She interceded for all of us, already. Why wouldn’t She be able to do this again? Doesn’t stand to reason. Her process of divinization increases from the Incarnation forward.

No private devotion to Mary is required.

The verse below is not talking about appearing before Christ at the judgement seat but coming before Him now in prayer. My question was can you come yourself for grace through prayer or only through the intercession of Mary?

“Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.” Hebrew 4:14-16

 

[GaryTaylor]

My question was can you come yourself for grace through prayer or only through the intercession of Mary?

Yes you can pray directly to Christ, in fact a very high percent of Catholics do exactly this.

 

[pablope]

You have obviously missed my point. Cornelius was humbling himself before Peter by kneeling at his feet, and Peter rebuked him fiercely, saying that he too was a man. Cornelius was not worshipping the Apostle as God, and yet, he was rebuked.

No, I did not miss your point, I was pointing out another dimention, that Cornelius was acting in humility, because he knew Peter to be a holy man…and from Jesus…he was not intending to worship him…as you seem to imply.

Perhaps it is you who missed something…with your own presumptions…that when you see someone kneeling in front of a statue of Mary…it is your own presumption that that person is in deep worship of the statue…without any thought whatsoever in the person’s heart or mind.

“No one can enter Heaven unless by Mary, as though through a door.”
So says late Medieval writer Bonaventure, enthusiastically quoted by Alphonsus Liguori, later declared doctor of the Church by the Roman Catholic hierarchy.

 

[pablope]

The verse below is not talking about appearing before Christ at the judgement seat but coming before Him now in prayer. My question was can you come yourself for grace through prayer or only through the intercession of Mary?

Both…sometimes, there is a feeling of deep shame and humility of our own unworthiness,a nd sinfulness…that sometimes, we can humbly choose to go through Mary, or any saint for that matter.

Do you see anything wrong with that?

"Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.