Why not ask Mary and the Saints for prayers?

[berk60]

Both…sometimes, there is a feeling of deep shame and humility of our own unworthiness,a nd sinfulness…that sometimes, we can humbly choose to go through Mary, or any saint for that matter.

 

[Indifferently]

No, I did not miss your point, I was pointing out another dimention, that Cornelius was acting in humility, because he knew Peter to be a holy man…and from Jesus…he was not intending to worship him…as you seem to imply.

 

[GaryTaylor]

This is proving difficult- I imply that even though Cornelius was not trying to worship Peter, he is rebuked by Peter for offering himself kneeling before Peter, a man.

Another quote from Liguori (saint and doctor of the RCC):
“At the command of Mary all obey, even God. She is omnipotent, for the queen, according to all laws, enjoys the same privileges as the king; and since the son’s power also belongs to the mother, this Mother is made omnipotent by an omnipotent Son. Therefore, to use the words of St. Antonine, God has put the whole Church not only under the patronage, but even under the power and authority, of Mary.”

Since this is by far his most famous work and the RCC has endorsed him as doctor of the Church, we can only suppose that his Marian beliefs had a high level of endorsement at the time. They speak for themselves, really. “The Glories of Mary” is found easily online.

Very pious work, however…

catholictradition.org/Mary/glories5.htm

“No one denies that Jesus Christ is our only Mediator of justice. By His merits He has won our reconciliation with God.” ST. ALPHONSUS LIGUORI

and

“We grant that God is the source of every good and the absolute master of all graces, and that Mary is only a creature, who receives whatever she obtains as a pure favor from God.”

Same conversation in so many words with many of the Saints.

 

[peace2u2]

If we are praying to the Saints then they are not dead, but very much alive in Heaven!

 

[GaryTaylor]

“And whereas Eve had disobeyed God, Mary was persuaded to obey God, that the Virgin Mary might become advocate (advocata) of the virgin Eve” (St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:19:1).

“With the Mediator, you are the Mediatrix of the entire world” (S. Ephraem, Syri opera graeca et latine, v. 3, Romae, pp. 525, 528-9, 532 (373 AD)).

“The Lord said to his mother, ‘Let your heart rejoice and be glad, for every favor and every gift has been given to you from my Father in heaven and from me and from the Holy Spirit. Every soul that calls upon your name shall not be ashamed, but shall find mercy and comfort and support and confidence, both in the world that now is and in that which is to come, in the presence of my Father in the heavens’” (John the Theologian, The Falling Asleep of Mary; 400 AD).

“Hail you who acceptably intercede as a Mediatrix for mankind.” (Antipater of Bostra, AD 431)

Mary has always been the intercessor in the Church. To mediate means to intercede.

 

[pablope]

That is not what I am asking…what was God’s point in making them go through Job?

How about those in heaven…do you think they are dead or alive?

he was not a dead person whom we are not suppose to contact.

Those in heaven…are they dead or alive?

Look into God’s word about contacting dead people and it seems He is not a fan of that sort of stuff

Another of your misconceptions. Contacting the dead for something else other than intercessions is necromancy.

The use of relics have OT/Jewish roots…calledtocommunion.com/2012/08/relics-saints-and-the-assumption-of-mary/

It was actually the pagans who had qualms as you have. From the article:

The first real blow to this interpretation came when I read Peter Brown’s book, The Cult of Saints: Its Rise and Function in Latin Christianity.

Brown challenged my view that the place of saints and relics in the church was a mere holdover from paganism, and that the practice was somehow peripheral to true Christianity. Instead, Brown painted a picture of ancient Christianity and paganism in which relics were indispensable to the former, and repulsive to the latter. Far from a holdover from paganism, the place of relics in the Church appeared as something intensely Jewish, Hebraic, and Old Testament. Pagans, like Julian-the-Apostate, found the practice revolting and legislated against it. (Paganism, with its notions of ritual purity, had strictly delimited the realm of divine worship and neatly separated it from the realm of corpses and the dead.)

 

[pablope]

pablope;10701195:

This is proving difficult- I imply that even though Cornelius was not trying to worship Peter, he is rebuked by Peter for offering himself kneeling before Peter, a man.

Another quote from Liguori (saint and doctor of the RCC):
“At the command of Mary all obey, even God. She is omnipotent, for the queen, according to all laws, enjoys the same privileges as the king; and since the son’s power also belongs to the mother, this Mother is made omnipotent by an omnipotent Son. Therefore, to use the words of St. Antonine, God has put the whole Church not only under the patronage, but even under the power and authority, of Mary.”

Since this is by far his most famous work and the RCC has endorsed him as doctor of the Church, we can only suppose that his Marian beliefs had a high level of endorsement at the time. They speak for themselves

, really. “The Glories of Mary” is found easily online.

Which is? Which fuels your biases and misconceptions? You seem to have a nuanced anger towards Ligouri’s writings?

 

[Indifferently]

Indifferently;10701407:

Which is? Which fuels your biases and misconceptions? You seem to have a nuanced anger towards Ligouri’s writings?

There is no anger here. But Liguori’s book is much better read as popular fiction and mythology (including as it does various apparent appearances of the Blessed Virgin, amongst other things) but as a serious manual of devotion, I suspect it is rather dangerous to the uninstructed mind, much as the use of the phrase “Our Lady”, not found in Scripture, which, even without formal endorsement, can create a folk religion which equates Mary with the all-too-similar-sounding Our Lord.

 

[joe370]

You have obviously missed my point. Cornelius was humbling himself before Peter by kneeling at his feet, and Peter rebuked him fiercely, saying that he too was a man. Cornelius was not worshipping the Apostle as God, and yet, he was rebuked.

“No one can enter Heaven unless by Mary, as though through a door.”
So says late Medieval writer Bonaventure, enthusiastically quoted by Alphonsus Liguori, later declared doctor of the Church by the Roman Catholic hierarchy.

And like you basically said: the CC would consider the worshipping of anyone other than God, outright heresy/apostasy.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

pablope;10702246:

There is no anger here. But Liguori’s book is much better read as popular fiction and mythology (including as it does various apparent appearances of the Blessed Virgin, amongst other things) but as a serious manual of devotion, I suspect it is rather dangerous to the uninstructed mind, much as the use of the phrase “Our Lady”, not found in Scripture, which, even without formal endorsement, can create a folk religion which equates Mary with the all-too-similar-sounding Our Lord.

Appreciate your points but remember both the Anglican and Lutheran traditions refer to ‘Our Lady’ and name their churches after her.

 

[Indifferently]

Indifferently;10702313:

Appreciate your points but remember both the Anglican and Lutheran traditions refer to ‘Our Lady’ and name their churches after her.

We do indeed name our churches after her. But our official liturgical materials use no such phrase. The churches are usually called St Mary the Virgin - nothing controversial about that.

 

[rinnie]

I had a conversation the other day on this topic so I thought I would present it to the forum. A Protestant friend of mine has prayer groups where they pray for others and ask for prayers in return.

I presented the question …If we can ask one another to pray for us, why can’t we ask the Mother of God and the Saints to do the same?

Her reply was that they are dead and do not pray for us and asking them to do so goes against Scripture.

Your thoughts?

I get that all the time. Here is what I say. Oh, Did you not hear about Jesus Christ! He rose from the dead, He took away death. There is no more death.

Also ask him to show you where it goes against Scripture. Then ask them why in Rev. which shows golden bowls of incense which is the prayers of the Saints. That looks to me like asking for prayers from the Saints are quite in line with scripture.

Then ask him if he believes there is life after death, Eternal life in Christ, Ask him if he believes you have to be a Saint to enter heaven? Then ask him then why can’t they pray for you? Why can’t they hear our prayers?

I believe my Dad and brother are in heaven and ask for them to pray for me ALL the time. And just in case they are in purgatory for the final cleansing to be made Saints I pray for them also. Never hurts.

 

[joe370]

EvangelCatholic;10702714:

**Appreciate your points but remember both the Anglican and Lutheran traditions refer to ‘Our Lady’ and name their churches after her.

**

We do indeed name our churches after her. But our official liturgical materials use no such phrase. The churches are usually called St Mary the Virgin - nothing controversial about that.

Would you consider the appellation - our lady- controversial? Some protestants would consider calling our blessed mother Mary a virgin, somewhat controversial, since they do not believe that Mary remained a virgin. Different strokes for different folks I suppose…

 

[rinnie]

I pray directly to God without the intercession of saints since Jesus is our High Priest. He can sympathize with our temptations and needs because He was tempted in all ways so He knows what it’s like. I come directly to Jesus because that is where to obtain the grace. Is that not allowed for the Catholic to come this way for the dispensing grace? Or does it have to come through Mary and saint?

I find in Hebrews 4:14-16, "Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

But where does that say that we can’t ask for the prayers of the Saints?

You are saying you don’t have to use the intercession of the Saints? No one hear will disagree with that.

Catholic teaching never states we MUST ask for the intercession of the Saint, but that we should because they are there to help us.

But why would anyone not want a Saint to pray for them. That is what I don’t get.

Why would a person think a sinner here on earths prayers would have more merit to God, then a Saint who was true and faithful to God?

 

[pablope]

I had a conversation the other day on this topic so I thought I would present it to the forum. A Protestant friend of mine has prayer groups where they pray for others and ask for prayers in return.

I presented the question …If we can ask one another to pray for us, why can’t we ask the Mother of God and the Saints to do the same?

Her reply was that they are dead and do not pray for us and asking them to do so goes against Scripture.

Your thoughts?

I ran into this already.

First, I pointed out Rev 8:3-4
3 Another angel with a golden censer came and stood at the altar; he was given a great quantity of incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar that is before the throne. 4 And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel.

I asked…who brings prayers to God? Per the passage…angels.

Then I asked…those in heaven…are they dead or alive? He said alive, of course.

Then per this passge…Matthew 22:30
30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

Agreed they are like angels…agreed with it, as per the passage.

Then I asked…who is bringing the prayers to God as per the passage below:

In Revelation 5:8,
“8 When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.”

Response…there is something wrong with my theology…go figure…

 

[rinnie]

pablope;10702246:

There is no anger here. But Liguori’s book is much better read as popular fiction and mythology (including as it does various apparent appearances of the Blessed Virgin, amongst other things) but as a serious manual of devotion, I suspect it is rather dangerous to the uninstructed mind, much as the use of the phrase “Our Lady”, not found in Scripture, which, even without formal endorsement, can create a folk religion which equates Mary with the all-too-similar-sounding Our Lord.

But that is why we have the Church to go to when we are in doubt not a book.

The Church is quite clear about Our Lady and what she is and is not to the Church.

And as far as Our Lady not being found in scripture means nothing. The Holy Trinity is also not found in scripure. But not being found in scripture, does not mean it is not so.

 

[joe370]

Indifferently;10702313:

But that is why we have the Church to go to when we are in doubt not a book.

The Church is quite clear about Our Lady and what she is and is not to the Church.

And as far as Our Lady not being found in scripture means nothing. The Holy Trinity is also not found in scripure. But not being found in scripture, does not mean it is not so.

Exactly. Sola scriptura is found nowhere in the bible either, and yet it is embraced by so many non-Catholics. Most non-Catholics believe in original sin and yet those two words, together, can be found nowhere is the Bible. At the same time they reject the Immaculate Conception based on the fact that those two words can be found nowhere in the NT. Strange…

 

[EIF5A]

So how does one get the attention of a particular saint? Do I need an icon, or can I just think or call out his/her name and ask for his/her prayer to God?

Do they hear our thoughts only when praying to them or do they know our ordinary thoughts as well?

 

[joe370]

So how does one get the attention of a particular saint? Do I need an icon, or can I just think or call out his/her name and ask for his/her prayer to God?

Do they hear our thoughts only when praying to them or do they know our ordinary thoughts as well?

One thing is for sure, everyone in heaven is a saint and perfectly conformed to God’s will and therefore anything is possible for those saints. I am sure that all prayer is directed by God, and for God nothing is impossible.

 

[StillCatholic]

So how does one get the attention of a particular saint? Do I need an icon, or can I just think or call out his/her name and ask for his/her prayer to God?

Do they hear our thoughts only when praying to them or do they know our ordinary thoughts as well?

I don’t believe anyone can give you a clear answer on that. Personally, I think intercession/communication is all done via the Holy Spirit who intercedes for us on our behalf because we know not how to pray. Therefore, if our minds and hearts are thinking or asking a particular saint to pray for or with us, and this is a valid way to pray, then I think it safe to say that it would be done via the Holy Spirit in concert with that particular saint.

Does that make sense?