Why not ask Mary and the Saints for prayers?

[aidanbradypop]

I think I am following you!

So is that the reason there are so many denominations? Each person hears the Holy Spirit and then starts their own church? Wouldn’t you think that the Holy Spirit would speak one message lest people get confused?

I noticed you are good at pointing to verses. I like that. I try to always do the same. Would you be so kind to find me a verse(s) that states we should not ask those that have departed this world to pray for us?

Ever notice when reading Scripture that Christ never says a person is “dead” once they leave this world? That is a bit interesting.

 

[joe370]

St. Pio of Pietrelcina is not relevant to harmonizing God’s word in the bible. You are speaking of a personal experience of something that has happened to you in your life. By the way I am happy that God’s healed you. Praise God!

Who is relevant in terms of harmonizing God’s word in the bible? Is it each and every Christian via individual interpretation, as they are moved by the Holy Spirit?

 

[Jeanne1184]

Who is relevant in terms of harmonizing God’s word in the bible? Is it each and every Christian via individual interpretation, as they are moved by the Holy Spirit?

"There are a dozen views about everything until you know the Answer. Then there is never more than one. - C.S. Lewis

 

[Jeanne1184]

Me thinks…you are disagreeing with a dictionary that provides for the proper meaning of prayer.

Unless, you are making your own dictionary?

We should thank both. Padre Pio for being a willing servant and channel of God’s grace…and God for providing that grace throught Padre Pio.

That is right…the Bible says test them…but how?

1 John 4

4 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world… 6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

Well, what should be the measuring stick, according to you? And are you the authority to impose what that measuring stick is?

The above test is not really useful for the current discussion because it requires being able to speak directly to a person (or spirit). The Church’s saints aren’t available for that (at least not to me ).

In context, I didn’t claim to have a ‘measuring stick’. I questioned the disparity between the extemely low opinion of women in the Bible and the world, and the number of females made available to be prayed to as Saints. (However, my first choice would be their writings, if available.)

“To what will you look for help if you will not look to that which is stronger than yourself?” - C.S. Lewis

 

[joe370]

"There are a dozen views about everything until you know the Answer. Then there is never more than one. - C.S. Lewis

Regarding the search for that one answer regarding any one doctrine: Who is relevant in terms of harmonizing God’s word in the bible? Clearly it is not each and every Christian via individual interpretation, as they are moved by the Holy Spirit? That leaves us with the church, but which one continues to be guided by God into all truth? John 16

“I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth.

 

[EIF5A]

Regarding the search for that one answer regarding any one doctrine: Who is relevant in terms of harmonizing God’s word in the bible? Clearly it is not each and every Christian via individual interpretation, as they are moved by the Holy Spirit? That leaves us with the church, but which one continues to be guided by God into all truth? John 16

“I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth.

Can’t the Holy Spirit lead both the church and the individual? The Holy Spirit cannot contradict Himself.

The problem is when people think they are led by the Holy Spirit but are really not.

Personally, I’ve had trouble trusting the c/Church wholeheartedly because if corruption and sin can exist and be justified in the past (e.g., selling of indulgences), that means the c/Church is not necessarily always correct.

That’s why Protestants prefer to refer to Scripture first and see if things are in accord with Scripture.

 

[joe370]

Can’t the Holy Spirit lead both the church and the individual? The Holy Spirit cannot contradict Himself.

The problem is when people think they are led by the Holy Spirit but are really not.

Personally, I’ve had trouble trusting the c/Church wholeheartedly because if corruption and sin can exist and be justified in the past (e.g., selling of indulgences), that means the c/Church is not necessarily always correct.

That’s why Protestants prefer to refer to Scripture first and see if things are in accord with Scripture.

So, certain people think they are led by the Holy Spirit but are really not? I guess there is no way to know who is and who is not…For example my sister tells me that my catholic understanding and my dad’s evangelical understanding of the Eucharist are both wrong, in favor of her understanding, and her church. Who can resolve our differences, since we seem to be at an impasse?

If you are waiting for a church free of sinners, it’s gonna be a long wait. LOL…Our Lord even predicted that corruption and scandal (wolves in sheep’s clothing) would exist in His church, just as it exists in every church. See the parable about the wheat and chaff.

AND he said to his disciples: It is impossible that scandals should not come: but woe to him through whom they come. Luke 17

The following has divided/fractured Christianity in a big way. Even the reformers split due to their doctrinal differences. However, if you think sola scriptura is from God, and works effectively, that’s cool.

Protestants prefer to refer to Scripture first and see if things are in accord with Scripture.

 

[EIF5A]

So, certain people think they are led by the Holy Spirit but are really not?
Why is that surprising?

I guess there is no way to know who is and who is not…For example my sister tells me that my catholic understanding and my dad’s evangelical understanding of the Eucharist are both wrong, in favor of her understanding, and her church. Who can resolve our differences, since we seem to be at an impasse?

Pray that each and every one be led to truth.

If you are waiting for a church free of sinners, it’s gonna be a long wait. LOL…Our Lord even predicted that corruption and scandal (wolves in sheep’s clothing) would exist in His church, just as it exists in every church. See the parable about the wheat and chaff.

AND he said to his disciples: It is impossible that scandals should not come: but woe to him through whom they come. Luke 17

So why not be scrupulous and meticulous to see if anything goes against Scripture?

The following has divided/fractured Christianity in a big way. Even the reformers split due to their doctrinal differences. However, if you think sola scriptura is from God, and works effectively, that’s cool.

I never wrote the phrase “sola scriptura”. Determining if something goes against Scripture is not the same as “sola scriptura”. Perhaps “prima scriptura”. I’m glad I gave you a chance to display righteous sarcasm.

 

[joe370]

So, certain people think they are led by the Holy Spirit but are really not?
Why is that surprising?

No, I agree. However, there is no way to determine who is and who is not, especially when those same people are deferring to scripture to defend their position. If you were to tell my sister that she was wrong, she would simply tell you that you were wrong -impasse.

I guess there is no way to know who is and who is not…For example my sister tells me that my catholic understanding and my dad’s evangelical understanding of the Eucharist are both wrong, in favor of her understanding, and her church. Who can resolve our differences, since we seem to be at an impasse?

Pray that each and every one be led to truth.

She does pray for me cause she believes I am in error and therefore my soul is in jeopardy. Surely God left His church with a way to preserve and transmit doctrinal truth until His return?

If you are waiting for a church free of sinners, it’s gonna be a long wait. LOL…Our Lord even predicted that corruption and scandal (wolves in sheep’s clothing) would exist in His church, just as it exists in every church. See the parable about the wheat and chaff.

AND he said to his disciples: It is impossible that scandals should not come: but woe to him through whom they come. Luke 17

So why not be scrupulous and meticulous to see if anything goes against Scripture?

That is what every good sola scriptura advocate does. By the way I was simply pointing out that corruption was predicted by Jesus, so we should not be surprised.

The following has divided/fractured Christianity in a big way. Even the reformers split due to their doctrinal differences. However, if you think sola scriptura is from God, and works effectively, that’s cool.

I never wrote the phrase “sola scriptura”. Determining if something goes against Scripture is not the same as “sola scriptura”. Perhaps “prima scriptura”. I’m glad I gave you a chance to display righteous sarcasm.

Wow, you really got that one wrong. I promise I was not being sarcastic. I will bow out…Ask anyone here and you will know that I loathe sarcasm… Take care brother…

 

[EIF5A]

Wow, you really got that one wrong. I promise I was not being sarcastic. I will bow out…Ask anyone here and you will know that I loathe sarcasm… Take care brother…

I apologize for being mistaken then. Internet boards are hard to truly communicate. Perhaps I’m bitter and cynical.

I just get tired of the “Oh look at the 5 gazillion Protestant denomination” bit.

 

[JonNC]

I never wrote the phrase “sola scriptura”. Determining if something goes against Scripture is not the same as “sola scriptura”. Perhaps “prima scriptura”. I’m glad I gave you a chance to display righteous sarcasm.

Sarcasm is not Joe’s way at all.

Jon

 

[joe370]

I apologize for being mistaken then. Internet boards are hard to truly communicate. Perhaps I’m bitter and cynical.

I just get tired of the “Oh look at the 5 gazillion Protestant denomination” bit.

Phew…I am glad we cleared that brother…

 

[joe370]

Sarcasm is not Joe’s way at all.

Jon

Thanks brother…

 

[peace2u2]

Yes, you are misunderstanding me. I’m saying the two situations are different. One is clearly using nefarious means to contact the dead.

Do you mean like “the Long Island Medium” chick?

 

[peace2u2]

We should thank both. Padre Pio for being a willing servant and channel of God’s

St. Pio of Pietrelcina is not relevant to harmonizing God’s word in the bible. You are speaking of a personal experience of something that has happened to you in your life. By the way I am happy that God’s healed you. Praise God!

I just want to point out that I was not praying to Padre Pio to intercede for anything. I was actually praying directly to God for a personal friend to be healed and asked God to send all His “warring” angels and all His Saints in Heaven to do battle with me and told Satan that I was not going to allow him to steal this person’s soul - not at least without a good fight - even if it meant losing my own life. God had other plans at the time. It would be me that He intended to heal and it was God who placed Padre Pio in my path.

“The author of Holy Writ is God, in whose power it is to signify His meaning not by words only (as man also can do) but by things themselves.” ~ St. Thomas Aquinas.

God’s Word is not the only means that He conveys His love to us or His desire to communicate something to us. Sometimes, God places people in our paths (those still living on earth and sometimes those living in heaven), situations and even things in our path to get our attention. Sometimes we respond, most times we do not.

It would take placing a Saint that I had never heard of in my path for God to catch my attention. I truly believe that God wanted to convey a certain message to me…“by His wounds (Jesus’ wounds) I have been healed.” Why would God use St. Pio to do this? Perhaps because St. Pio bears the stigmata something also that I had never heard of. The passion of Christ and the Sacred Heart of Jesus devotion are 2 things very dear to my heart, so how appropriate that God would know that if He was going to capture my attention, it would be thru those means.

But, I would need to participate with this healing that God was offering me. For God is not a one way street, yet He was showing me that He is always with me and always was with me even in those moments of making bad choices in my life. God was showing me that He still loved me and always did and always will and was showing me how to put things in my life back in order, His order, so that I may have eternal life. My salvation wasn’t this one time proclamation of accepting Jesus as my Lord and Savior…it is an ongoing salvation, one that I participate in every day not a one time event because if that were the case, and my salvation was good to go just because I believed in Jesus, then I would be facing the lake of fire!

And yes, it took the powerful intercession of Padre Pio (I am his spiritual daughter) that God allowed to get my attention and help lead me to repent of my own personal sin. Padre Pio was known for his work in the confessional and was also a mystic.

Romans 2:3-5
Do you suppose, then, you who judge those who engage in such things and yet do them yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?

Or do you hold his priceless kindness, forbearance, and patience in low esteem, unaware that the kindness of God would lead you to repentance?

By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,

These Words of Scripture turned into a very personal experience with the living God! God’s Words are not just mere words on a page of paper - dormant. No, they are a two edge sword that pierced my very being into action - movement- compelled me to signify my love for Jesus by repenting and hearing the words that I needed to hear, not my words telling me that God forgives me, but I needed to hear the words of the priest who sat in that confessional and told me that God loves me more than anything and YES He forgives me- I needed to hear the actual words - YOU ARE FORGIVEN, because I was not really sure…

The Healing Hand of God by Jeremy Camp:

youtube.com/watch?v=wpuzUQsJdT8

God will not quiz me in heaven on how well I can recite by memory words of scripture (book, chapter, verse), but more importanly, how well did I live my life according to His Word.

 

[peace2u2]

Psalm 6:11
“You will show me the path of life; in Your presence is fullness of joy.”

 

[peace2u2]

I don’t think those in Heaven need prayers for them self. They are saved and with the Lord.

The prayers then are given to a soul in purgatory who does need them.

 

[Lochias]

I just get tired of the “Oh look at the 5 gazillion Protestant denomination” bit.

Those of us who ARE looking at the 5 gazillion Protest denominations are certainly getting tired of it, too.

 

[berk60]

Berk, for the third time, please answer my question:

You’ve said two entirely different things: That we can only approach and pray to Jesus on our own, and that it is ok for other people to pray for us.

Which is it? It can’t logically be both.

The living people on planet earth can approach and pray to God directly. I can do this and I can also ask other living people on earth to pray with me to God so we are praying all in one accord. These are the other people that it is OK to pray for us. Those on earth. I hope that answers your question. If not maybe I’m missing something regarding your question.

 

[berk60]

I think I am following you!

So is that the reason there are so many denominations? Each person hears the Holy Spirit and then starts their own church? Wouldn’t you think that the Holy Spirit would speak one message lest people get confused?

I noticed you are good at pointing to verses. I like that. I try to always do the same. Would you be so kind to find me a verse(s) that states we should not ask those that have departed this world to pray for us?

Ever notice when reading Scripture that Christ never says a person is “dead” once they leave this world? That is a bit interesting.

Since you like to quote scripture then you know asking those that have departed this world to pray for us is not found in scripture. All we do have are the examples of when people did pray. Who were they praying to? Even in Maccabees prayer was directed to God not to an intercessor.
To justify doing something because it is not found in the bible I think is dangerous. It like saying, “Well did God really say…we couldn’t?” We have to take a look at the character of God through out the bible. We know this is solid since He is righteous. We have to look at what we see in the bible about contacting those in heaven besides God. Do you see this as something He condones?