Why not ask Mary and the Saints for prayers?

[berk60]

I think I am following you!

So is that the reason there are so many denominations? Each person hears the Holy Spirit and then starts their own church? Wouldn’t you think that the Holy Spirit would speak one message lest people get confused?

I noticed you are good at pointing to verses. I like that. I try to always do the same. Would you be so kind to find me a verse(s) that states we should not ask those that have departed this world to pray for us?

Ever notice when reading Scripture that Christ never says a person is “dead” once they leave this world? That is a bit interesting.

Sorry I missed your last question about God never saying a person is dead after leaving this world. This is true and when I mention someone dieing it is only their physical body that I am referring too.

We will all receive resurrected imperishable bodies eventually to be united with our spirit that are in heaven or Hades. Only people that aren’t truly born again will face the second death in the Lake of Fire and even there they will not be annihilated but be in torment for eternity.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Since you like to quote scripture then you know asking those that have departed this world to pray for us is not found in scripture. All we do have are the examples of when people did pray. Who were they praying to? Even in Maccabees prayer was directed to God not to an intercessor.
To justify doing something because it is not found in the bible I think is dangerous. It like saying, “Well did God really say…we couldn’t?” We have to take a look at the character of God through out the bible. We know this is solid since He is righteous. We have to look at what we see in the bible about contacting those in heaven besides God. Do you see this as something He condones?

catholic.com/blog/tim-staples/praying-to-dead-folks
catholic.com/tracts/praying-to-the-saints

Those are wonderful links if you are interested in checking out. They might help you answer some of your questions.

To justify doing something because it is not found in the bible I think is dangerous

Kind of like trying to justify Scripture Alone and Faith Alone when it is not found in the Bible? I would agree that could be dangerous.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Sorry I missed your last question about God never saying a person is dead after leaving this world. This is true and when I mention someone dieing it is only their physical body that I am referring too.

We will all receive resurrected imperishable bodies eventually to be united with our spirit that are in heaven or Hades. Only people that aren’t truly born again will face the second death in the Lake of Fire and even there they will not be annihilated but be in torment for eternity.

So if Christ never called them “dead” by what authority do you claim to do so?

 

[berk60]

Who is relevant in terms of harmonizing God’s word in the bible? Is it each and every Christian via individual interpretation, as they are moved by the Holy Spirit?

It sound like you have never prayed and meditated on scripture asking for truth to it’s meaning. God will provide this truth if you seek it with all your heart. Once you truly come to the end of yourself and ask Jesus to save you He will send the Holy Spirit and you can read and understand God’s word.

Now B-4 everyone jumps on the bandwagon about all the different denominations and interpretation ect… I can only speak for myself and not everyone else. If I am struggling with the meaning of some part of scripture I will keep reading the bible and cross referencing scripture with itself along with prayer until the truth becomes evident.

This shouldn’t come as a shock to you since you say that a priest or bishop or pope… can do this. So it is possible for man to know the meaning of God’s word or do you believe only the Catholic ordained have this ability?

 

[EIF5A]

Those of us who ARE looking at the 5 gazillion Protest denominations are certainly getting tired of it, too.

If the corruption in the Church was not allowed to propagate, none of this would have happened.

 

[EIF5A]

Kind of like trying to justify Scripture Alone and Faith Alone when it is not found in the Bible? I would agree that could be dangerous.

Scripture Alone: doctrine, theology, etc. Yes, it should be the prime source. (I personally take the prima Scriptura route.)

Faith Alone: this phrase is misleading. It means faith is a necessary and sufficient foundation for salvation, but not the end. Faith is not just believing in the heart, for we all know faith without works is dead, unless someone happens to pass away moments after contrition and penitence, in which case, only God can judge. It’s more of a counter against “works-based salvation”, but even then, the works were done in faith. So faith and works cannot be separated. Context.

Kind of like asking the Blessed Virgin Mary to save us. She does not have the power to save, only God does, but the context is that she is interceding for our behalf.

 

[Lochias]

First you say this…

The verse reads, “Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.” Hebrew 4:14-17

My question was, since I come myself boldly before the throne of grace can’t you also? Or do you need another intercessor besides yourself?

Then this…

The living people on planet earth can approach and pray to God directly. I can do this and I can also ask other living people on earth to pray with me to God so we are praying all in one accord. These are the other people that it is OK to pray for us. Those on earth. I hope that answers your question. If not maybe I’m missing something regarding your question.

Why do you need or want other people to pray with you, if you can yourself “come boldly before the throne of grace”? According to everything you said so far, it seems that asking ANYONE else to pray for you or with you is a lack of faith on your part.

 

[Lochias]

If the corruption in the Church was not allowed to propagate, none of this would have happened.

No, sorry. Corruption happened, as it does everywhere, but we have already had the promise that “the gates of hell shall not prevail” against the Church.

The people who originally left lacked faith, in a deep and terrible way. Jesus never gave them permission to go and start other churches.

 

[EIF5A]

The saints are alive in heaven.

The saints are praying in heaven, perhaps for salvation of humanity and for the mercy of God.

But can saints hear us? Us, as in people living physically on earth.

This is what I am having trouble with accepting. I wish I could. But my conscience will not let me at the present moment.

 

[EIF5A]

No, sorry. Corruption happened, as it does everywhere, but we have already had the promise that “the gates of hell shall not prevail” against the Church.

The people who originally left lacked faith, in a deep and terrible way. Jesus never gave them permission to go and start other churches.

I don’t think Luther intended to. He kind of got excommunicated.

 

[Lochias]

I don’t think Luther intended to. He kind of got excommunicated.

And that wasn’t Luther’s fault, somehow?

 

[berk60]

First you say this…

Then this…

Why do you need or want other people to pray with you, if you can yourself “come boldly before the throne of grace”? According to everything you said so far, it seems that asking ANYONE else to pray for you or with you is a lack of faith on your part.

What I am saying is that as born again believers we have the privileged to come boldly before the throne of grace. This has been granted to us by God and it is far all believers.
No one said that you can’t pray with other believer in one accord having them intercede for you among the saints on earth that are still in an incarnate state. In fact that is demonstrated in scripture among saints on earth.
No where in scripture is this intercession demonstrated for saints that are in heaven.

 

[EIF5A]

And that wasn’t Luther’s fault, somehow?

He pointed out where the church leaders were in the wrong in the hopes of correcting false practices. The leaders didn’t like that so much.

 

[aidanbradypop]

He pointed out where the church leaders were in the wrong in the hopes of correcting false practices. The leaders didn’t like that so much.

Kind of off topic lol

 

[berk60]

So if Christ never called them “dead” by what authority do you claim to do so?

I’m not sure where all this “dead” debate is coming from but like I said when I am referencing someone as dead, all I mean is that he is physically dead not spiritually dead. As far as the authority of saying on is dead in that regard would be from not detecting a pulse or heart beat.

 

[EIF5A]

Kind of off topic lol

You’re the one said you were tired of the myriad Protestant denominations. I only pointed out why Protestantism was started in the first place, without original intent to break off from the Catholic Church.

 

[aidanbradypop]

I’m not sure where all this “dead” debate is coming from but like I said when I am referencing someone as dead, all I mean is that he is physically dead not spiritually dead. As far as the authority of saying on is dead in that regard would be from not detecting a pulse or heart beat.

that is kind of the topic of the thread. the lady I mentioned in the original post said that we cannot talk to the Saints because they are dead. I believe Scripture state very clearlythat those who have left this world are more alive than we are. many Protestant denominations hold firm to the belief although Christ stated otherwise:shrug:

 

[berk60]

catholic.com/blog/tim-staples/praying-to-dead-folks
catholic.com/tracts/praying-to-the-saints

Those are wonderful links if you are interested in checking out. They might help you answer some of your questions.

Kind of like trying to justify Scripture Alone and Faith Alone when it is not found in the Bible? I would agree that could be dangerous.

Thank you for the links they were very interesting. I don’t see were the writer of the article got the authority to make the assumption on Rev 5:8-14 seen in the following quote from the author:

The twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints … the elders fell down and worshipped (5:8-14).

**“These “elders” are offering the prayers of the faithful symbolized by incense filtering upward from the earth to heaven.” **

It doesn’t say the elders are offering the prayers. In fact the next verse the author quotes says that the angel is the one offering the prayers. The elders were holding the bowls that contained the prayers.

“And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.” Revelation 8:3-4

So the author could have just as easily assumed that the angel was doing the interceding instead of the elders could he have? The author is trying to read something into the bible that isn’t there. The focus on these verses is the prayers of the saints. The elders and the angels are serving God saying that these passages give evidence that the elders are hearing our prayers and then interceding to God on our behalf is pure speculation. It’s adding to what’s there and we are warned not to add or take away from the words of this book.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Thank you for the links they were very interesting. I don’t see were the writer of the article got the authority to make the assumption on Rev 5:8-14 seen in the following quote from the author:

scripturecatholic.com/saints.html Another great link. It might take a bit to go through it, but it will give you a wonderful insight about the Saints.

III. Prayer of Intercession
2634 Intercession is a prayer of petition which leads us to pray as Jesus did. He is the one intercessor with the Father on behalf of all men, especially sinners.112 He is “able for all time to save those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.”113 The Holy Spirit “himself intercedes for us… and intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.”114 (432)

For the CCC:

635 Since Abraham, intercession—asking on behalf of another—has been characteristic of a heart attuned to God’s mercy. In the age of the Church, Christian intercession participates in Christ’s, as an expression of the communion of saints. In intercession, he who prays looks “not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others,” even to the point of praying for those who do him harm.115 (2571, 2577)

2636 The first Christian communities lived this form of fellowship intensely.116 Thus the Apostle Paul gives them a share in his ministry of preaching the Gospel117 but also intercedes for them.118 The intercession of Christians recognizes no boundaries: “for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions,” for persecutors, for the salvation of those who reject the Gospel.119 (1900, 1037) usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/epub/index.cfm?p=39-chapter18.xhtml%23para2635

 

[aidanbradypop]

Berk…your tag states Protestant. That is a pretty general label. Do you attend a certain denomination or faith? Would make things a bit clearer when posting with you.