Why not ask Mary and the Saints for prayers?

[EIF5A]

How could more help be needed beyond God, His Son, and the Holy Spirit? Omnipotent, omniscience, and omnipresence just doensn’t work for some? The Plan of Salvation is imperfect?

Tis a puzzler.

I think it’s something to the effect of “the prayers of the righteous availeth much”, and since Mary is Jesus’ mother, her intercession must be tremendous.

But it seems the line between intercession and asking directly to her is often blurred…

 

[MartinJordan]

But it seems the line between intercession and asking directly to her is often blurred…

Can Mary forgive sins?

MJ

 

[Jeanne1184]

I think it’s something to the effect of “the prayers of the righteous availeth much”, and since Mary is Jesus’ mother, her intercession must be tremendous.

But it seems the line between intercession and asking directly to her is often blurred…

If one has become truly Righteous (as opposed to self-righteous), it happened through the Trinity as that is the The Way to such a blessed condition, per Scripture. And if that would be the case, miracles of healing and and other wonders even greater than Christ did would be possible, per Christ.

I’m still scratching my head about the 800+ additional saints added by Pope Francis to the list of 7,000+ existing ones ( catholic.org/saints/stindex.php ). “St.” Hildegarde was certainly an interesting entry - she could easily move to the head of class. I’m not sure what to think of a ‘prophetess’ as a saint in 1136 AD. Wasn’t the ‘head of prophecy’ from the right side of the tracks cut off with John the Baptist?

 

[joe370]

How could more help be needed beyond God, His Son, and the Holy Spirit? Omnipotent, omniscience, and omnipresence just doensn’t work for some? The Plan of Salvation is imperfect?

Tis a puzzler.

Are you OK with Christians on this side of eternity asking other Christians on this side of eternity to intercede on their behalf i.e. asking others to pray for them? Would you call that going beyond God, His Son, and the Holy Spirit? If that is beneficial then surely the intercession of our fellow Christians — saints in heaven, would be beneficial as well?

Saint Paul reminds us that Christians should intercede: “First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way.” Does that imply that omnipotent, omniscience, and omnipresence doesn’t work for some? Or that the plan of Salvation is imperfect?

Surely intercessory prayers offered by Christians on this side of eternity and the other, on behalf of others is something “good and pleasing to God,” as opposed to being something that infringes upon Jesus’ role as mediator? Your thoughts?

 

[Jeanne1184]

Can Mary forgive sins?

MJ

What a tangled web is woven when we deviate widely from Scripture. My answer would be an emphatic, “Absolutely not.” Divine Forgiveness is from Within by the Power of the Holy Spirit. Experience, not opinion.

What the Church teaches other than absolution by a priest, I have no clue. What time I have available, I use to study the Bible rather than Church doctrine. Didn’t think the two were so radically different.

 

[Jeanne1184]

Are you OK with Christians on this side of eternity asking other Christians on this side of eternity to intercede on their behalf i.e. asking others to pray for them? Would you call that going beyond God, His Son, and the Holy Spirit? If that is beneficial then surely the intercession of our fellow Christians — saints in heaven, would be beneficial as well?

Saint Paul reminds us that Christians should intercede: “First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way.” Does that imply that omnipotent, omniscience, and mnipresence doesn’t work for some? Or that the plan of Salvation is imperfect?

Surely intercessory prayers offered by Christians on this side of eternity and the other, on behalf of others is something “good and pleasing to God,” as opposed to being something that infringes upon Jesus’ role as mediator? Your thoughts?

We’re back to the very important distinction of living beings praying TO (Living)God/Christ/Holy Spirit directly. And living beings praying TO the Trinity FOR other living or deceased beings (for them, not to them.) Does the Church also now sanction seances to place these requests to the deceased? If not, why not? It would be the same difference.

Praying TO deceased beings for favors of any kind (‘intercession’ or not) is tap dancing on the dark side, to me. Your mileage may vary.

 

[joe370]

We’re back to the very important distinction of living beings praying TO (Living)God/Christ/Holy Spirit directly. And living beings praying TO the Trinity FOR other living or deceased beings (for them, not to them.) Does the Church also now sanction seances to place these requests to the deceased? If not, why not? It would be the same difference.

Praying TO deceased beings for favors of any kind (‘intercession’ or not) is tap dancing on the dark side, to me. Your mileage may vary.

You seem set in your ways in terms of people on this side of eternity asking those in Heaven to pray for them via quite prayer, as opposed to formal seances, so I will respect your beliefs and let it go…

 

[joe370]

What a tangled web is woven when we deviate widely from Scripture. My answer would be an emphatic, “Absolutely not.” Divine Forgiveness is from Within by the Power of the Holy Spirit. Experience, not opinion.

That was the point he was trying to make…

 

[MartinJordan]

What a tangled web is woven when we deviate widely from Scripture.

So far so good

My answer would be an emphatic, “Absolutely not.”

Yes, forgiving can only be done by God. So, Mary has no power here. Thus as it stands Catholics only ask her for prayers, which are very powerful. Jesus got his human nature from his Mother. Wow! So she certainly has a very unique connection with her Son.:harp:

Divine Forgiveness is from Within by the Power of the Holy Spirit. Experience, not opinion.

Can you be more specific here? Because Forgiveness can only come from God. Jesus chose men who had authority to forgive sins when Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit onto them.

What the Church teaches other than absolution by a priest, I have no clue.

One must have a change of heart plus one must be sincerely sorry for their sins by doing** reparation** (work). The priest will recommend what it can be.

What time I have available I use to study the Bible rather than Church doctrine. Didn’t think the two were so radically different.

Reading the Bible is a wonderful thing to do.

However, the Church put it together through Tradition. So, I think you are doing the right thing by reading the Bible but the interpretation must be left to the Body of Authority ( that is the Catholic Church) which correlated it, to get the full context.

So, you are correct they are not radically different not by a long shot!

Peace.

MJ

 

[Lochias]

We’re back to the very important distinction of living beings praying TO (Living)God/Christ/Holy Spirit directly. And living beings praying TO the Trinity FOR other living or deceased beings (for them, not to them.) Does the Church also now sanction seances to place these requests to the deceased? If not, why not? It would be the same difference.

This statement of yours shows a woeful lack of understanding of Catholic theology, as well as Christian history and tradition.

Praying TO deceased beings for favors of any kind (‘intercession’ or not) is tap dancing on the dark side, to me. Your mileage may vary.

That is a serious accusation, unfounded and steeped in ignorance, purposeful or otherwise. I invite you to read, learn, ask questions, and generally inform yourself instead of spouting off this kind of absolute gibberish.

 

[EIF5A]

Perhaps this was already answered in the previous 26 pages, so I apologize if I’m repeating a question.

But what/when is the first known example of praying to saints and the Virgin Mary?

 

[pablope]

Perhaps this was already answered in the previous 26 pages, so I apologize if I’m repeating a question.

But what/when is the first known example of praying to saints and the Virgin Mary?

In the catacombs…during the Roman persecution of Christians.

It did not start with Christians, it started with our jewish roots…calledtocommunion.com/2012/08/relics-saints-and-the-assumption-of-mary/

Instead, Brown painted a picture of ancient Christianity and paganism in which relics were indispensable to the former, and repulsive to the latter. Far from a holdover from paganism, the place of relics in the Church appeared as something intensely Jewish, Hebraic, and Old Testament. Pagans, like Julian-the-Apostate, found the practice revolting and legislated against it. (Paganism, with its notions of ritual purity, had strictly delimited the realm of divine worship and neatly separated it from the realm of corpses and the dead.)

Peter Brown:

On this point, the rise of Christianity in the pagan world was met by deep religious anger. We can chart the rise to prominence of the Christian church most faithfully by listening to pagan reactions to the cult of martyrs. For the progress of this cult spelled out for the pagans a slow and horrid crumbling of ancient barriers.1

Saints and Relics as Biblical

As I explored this conundrum, the first thing I began to appreciate was just how biblical the practice really was. I realized that the veneration of relics, belief in their miraculous powers, and in the intercession of departed saints and angels was deeply Hebraic and Jewish. We find testimony to it in such places as 2 Kings 13:20-21, 2 Maccabees 15:12-16, and Tobit 12:12-15, considered especially in comparison to Revelation 5:8. (At this point, it was immaterial to me whether Maccabees and Tobit should be considered canonical texts. It was enough that they expressed a historic Jewish belief in these concepts.)

Brown and others have shown that these practices continued in Judaism into the era of the New Testament, and of the Midrash and Talmud. Especially important in this regard is J. Jeremias’s untranslated work, Heiligengräber in Jesu Umwelt. (Göttingen, 1958) Jeremias shows that this cult was both extremely important to Jews, and of great significance for the development of the relic cult in early Christianity. Likewise, Josef W. Meri in The Cult of Saints among Muslims and Jews in Medieval Syria shows that the Jewish practice continued with Jews in Babylon, Syrian, North Africa, and elsewhere, and included pilgrimages to the tombs not only of Biblical figures, but even more contemporary “saints,” like Maimonides. Cultic visits to the resting place of the ancestors continue in Israel to this day.

 

[pablope]

Were their hearts hardened? Would they have physically said a prayer but their heart was insincere so they were incapable of having contrition and offering an effective prayer? I don’t know.

Thank for your response, EIF…here is my take on the passage from Job 42:

Eliphaz and his friends have offended the Lord…7 After the Lord had said these things to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has

Just as when we sin, we offend the Lord. In seeking the intercession of others, we realize our own pride, our offense to God.

It is not that they were insencere, it is that God wanted Eliphaz and his friends to humble themselves…by telling them to go through Job. Going to someone is a human trait we do not really like doing, so God tells them to ask for Job’s intercession…so that they can learn to be humble.

Recall Genesis 3…11 And he said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?”

13 Then the LORD God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”

The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”

Instead of owning up to their transgression, Adam and the Woman rationalize their disobedience.

Going through the saints, begets an act of humility…I think it begets an act of piety by asking for those saints to pray for us and shows humility and oneness in the Body of Christ.

Here is another passage…look at how David convicts himself:

2Sam 12 (please read the whole chapter, will only cite this verse):

13 Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.”

But Jesus taught us a prayer, and in it, we ask for God’s forgiveness. He never said forgiveness requires the intercession of His mother.

 

[Jeanne1184]

What God says to Peter (when Peter suggests equal altars for Elias and Moses) is, “Hear HIM!” (Christ.) Jesus encourages us to love HIM only. “To love the Lord your God with all of your heart, all your soul, and all your strength.” To love Him is to love God - because when we trust in Jesus, we trust in His Father also. When we trust in Jesus, we trust that God sent the Holy Spirit to become Indwelt and lead us into all truth.

What if I had a husband who promised to provide for me, but I called one of his freinds everytime I needed something? Or if I would thank one of his friends for something that my husband did for me? Wouldn’t that show a distrust of my husband’s ability to provide for me? Would it negatively affect the relationship with my husband?

Saints, to me, have their place as examples of Grace received in their lives and to marvel at how great our God/Jesus is, not for saints to ‘stand in for’.

I apologize for sounding so confrontational in the last post. I only wish to present a different way of seeing that works in amazng ways, for me. The Holy Spirit is Real.

Off to take my mother to physical therapy. Will respond to MartinJordan’s question regarding my experience of Forgiveness this evening, I hope.

May Grace be with us all.

 

[Lochias]

What God says to Peter (when Peter suggests equal altars for Elias and Moses) is, “Hear HIM!” (Christ.) Jesus encourages us to love HIM only. “To love the Lord your God with all of your heart, all your soul, and all your strength.” To love Him is to love God - because when we trust in Jesus, we trust in His Father also. When we trust in Jesus, we trust that God sent the Holy Spirit to become Indwelt and lead us into all truth.

You have taken this verse entirely out of context; use your common sense. If we are to love Jesus only, then we cannot love our family and friends. To use your context is to render pointless the words of Jesus when he said: “Love God, and love thy neighbor.”

What if I had a husband who promised to provide for me, but I called one of his freinds everytime I needed something?

Do you think Catholics are disregarding God when we ask for the intercessory prayer of the saints? Do you think God values the love of the saints (as well as our family and friends) for us so little? You are presenting a fallacious argument.

Or if I would thank one of his friends for something that my husband did for me? Wouldn’t that show a distrust of my husband’s ability to provide for me? Would it negatively affect the relationship with my husband?

Do you really think that we don’t thank God for answering our prayers, and the prayers of others on our behalf? Do you really think that we believe the saints are answering our prayers directly? Let’s be honest here: Do you take us for fools that can’t think and reason?

Do you think that God would be disappointed in the love of those who sacrifice their time and energy to pray for us? Do you think that the prayer of others lessens us in God’s eyes?

Saints, to me, have their place as examples of Grace received in their lives and to marvel at how great our God/Jesus is, not for saints to ‘stand in for’.

You are the only one even suggesting such a thing.

I apologize for sounding so confrontational in the last post. I only wish to present a different way of seeing that works in amazng ways, for me. The Holy Spirit is Real.

Your way, thus far, is judgmental and narrow-minded in the extreme. You’ve presented a poor case thusfar.

 

[peace2u2]

So far so good

Yes, forgiving can only be done by God. So, Mary has no power here. Thus as it stands Catholics only ask her for prayers, which are very powerful. Jesus got his human nature from his Mother. Wow! So she certainly has a very unique connection with her Son.:harp:

Can you be more specific here? Because Forgiveness can only come from God. Jesus chose men who had authority to forgive sins when Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit onto them.

One must have a change of heart plus one must be sincerely sorry for their sins by doing** reparation** (work). The priest will recommend what it can be.

Reading the Bible is a wonderful thing to do.

However, the Church put it together through Tradition. So, I think you are doing the right thing by reading the Bible but the interpretation must be left to the Body of Authority ( that is the Catholic Church) which correlated it, to get the full context.

So, you are correct they are not radically different not by a long shot!

Peace.

MJ

MJ - Nice post

 

[Peebo]

As an ex protestant I don’t care what they think of praying to the saints…if they want to argue it’s not scriptural let them…after all they were the ones who threw out the baby with the bath water after the reformation…it was part of the teaching of the early church…they also dispute the words of Jesus…ask them what Jesus meant when he said “unless you drink my blood and eat my body you do not have life in you”…and many of his followers left him because they found it to hard to understand…as do protestants today…they like to avoid that one…or use the fall back line…“not to be taken literaly”…and this one…Jesus said to Peter…“you are a rock and upon this rock I will build my church”…so here we have Jesus telling Simon that he is now Peter…which means “rock”…but they will argue that it was the statement of faith by Peter as to who he (Jesus) was…not to be taken literaly as meaning Peter…but that he (Jesus) was the rock…not Peter…so why would Jesus call him Peter (a rock)…when he wasn’t…but of course protestants can’t even agree among themselves from one passage or verse of scripture from another…that’s why there are something like 30,000 different protestant churches and growing daily…and only one Holy Catholic and Apostolic church which was given authority by Jesus Christ…so…who cares what protestants think of Catholic teachings…they can’t agree among themselves.

 

[peace2u2]

What God says to Peter (when Peter suggests equal altars for Elias and Moses) is, “Hear HIM!” (Christ.) Jesus encourages us to love HIM only. “To love the Lord your God with all of your heart, all your soul, and all your strength.” To love Him is to love God - because when we trust in Jesus, we trust in His Father also. When we trust in Jesus, we trust that God sent the Holy Spirit to become Indwelt and lead us into all truth.

What if I had a husband who promised to provide for me, but I called one of his freinds everytime I needed something? Or if I would thank one of his friends for something that my husband did for me? Wouldn’t that show a distrust of my husband’s ability to provide for me? Would it negatively affect the relationship with my husband?

Saints, to me, have their place as examples of Grace received in their lives and to marvel at how great our God/Jesus is, not for saints to ‘stand in for’.

I apologize for sounding so confrontational in the last post. I only wish to present a different way of seeing that works in amazng ways, for me. The Holy Spirit is Real.

Off to take my mother to physical therapy. Will respond to MartinJordan’s question regarding my experience of Forgiveness this evening, I hope.

May Grace be with us all.

Here is an analogy to help you grasp the big picture of what a relationship with God looks like because it is certainly not what you are painting, just a me and Jesus only relationship. (keep in mind that Jesus was born into a family and so are we when we are baptized.):

Imagine that you are visiting a king and as you are being shown into his royal throne room, you notice immediately the beautiful music that is playing. As you step into the chamber, you are dazzled by the beauty of the place - gorgeous tapestries hang from the walls, there is stunning works of art adorning the walls, sumptuous carpet covers the floor. You see men and women dressed in splendid apparel and their faces shine with happiness, their countenances beautiful to behold. As you progress further into the room towards the king, you realize that the grandeur of the room grows accordingly. Finally, you reach the foot of the throne, and you gaze upon the king himself. He is magnificent, far more glorious than anything or anyone in the room.

You are overwhelmed by the regal beauty of his clothing, his crown, his scepter, his throne. But, the king himself is the center, the focal point of all the glory that surrounds him.

You can see that this king lavishes his wealth and love for beauty on everything and everyone around him.

Now, imagine that you are entering the throne room of a different king. The first thing that you notice is the absence of sound. There is no music. There are no exquisite tapestries to catch your eye, no works of art and no jewel-studded carpet. In fact, there are no people here. There is literally nothing in the room that could distract your attention from the king, who sits in magnificent glory on his throne, at the far end of the room. This room is bare of decorations and empty of people because this king is jealous of his glory. He doesn’t want you to become distracted by anything else - he wants you to see only himself.

So, which king is more glorious?

Obviously, the first king.

These 2 kings represent the two very different ways that Catholics and Protestants understand God’s attitude toward his creatures.

God desires to share His glory with His creatures. God desires that we help each other and unite as a family and to stop having family squabbles over the little things.

1 Cor.12:24-27
But God has so arranged the body, giving the greater honor to the inferior member, that there may be no dissension within the body, but the members may have the same care for one another. If one member suffers, all suffer together with it; if one member is honored, all rejoice together with it. Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.

 

[joe370]

Here is an analogy to help you grasp the big picture of what a relationship with God looks like because it is certainly not what you are painting, just a me and Jesus only relationship. (keep in mind that Jesus was born into a family and so are we when we are baptized.):

Imagine that you are visiting a king and as you are being shown into his royal throne room, you notice immediately the beautiful music that is playing. As you step into the chamber, you are dazzled by the beauty of the place - gorgeous tapestries hang from the walls, there is stunning works of art adorning the walls, sumptuous carpet covers the floor. You see men and women dressed in splendid apparel and their faces shine with happiness, their countenances beautiful to behold. As you progress further into the room towards the king, you realize that the grandeur of the room grows accordingly. Finally, you reach the foot of the throne, and you gaze upon the king himself. He is magnificent, far more glorious than anything or anyone in the room.

You are overwhelmed by the regal beauty of his clothing, his crown, his scepter, his throne. But, the king himself is the center, the focal point of all the glory that surrounds him.

You can see that this king lavishes his wealth and love for beauty on everything and everyone around him.

Now, imagine that you are entering the throne room of a different king. The first thing that you notice is the absence of sound. There is no music. There are no exquisite tapestries to catch your eye, no works of art and no jewel-studded carpet. In fact, there are no people here. There is literally nothing in the room that could distract your attention from the king, who sits in magnificent glory on his throne, at the far end of the room. This room is bare of decorations and empty of people because this king is jealous of his glory. He doesn’t want you to become distracted by anything else - he wants you to see only himself.

So, which king is more glorious?

Obviously, the first king.

These 2 kings represent the two very different ways that Catholics and Protestants understand God’s attitude toward his creatures.

God desires to share His glory with His creatures. God desires that we help each other and unite as a family and to stop having family squabbles over the little things.

1 Cor.12:24-27
But God has so arranged the body, giving the greater honor to the inferior member, that there may be no dissension within the body, but the members may have the same care for one another. If one member suffers, all suffer together with it; if one member is honored, all rejoice together with it. Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.

Wow, that is a beautiful analogy!!! Can I use that with my sister? I think that might help her understand, for she is the type who embraces that whole - “just a me and Jesus only relationship”

 

[GaryTaylor]

Wow, that is a beautiful analogy!!! Can I use that with my sister?

I know, right. I believe we have a creative writer in our midst.