Why not ask Mary and the Saints for prayers?

[peace2u2]

Wow, that is a beautiful analogy!!! Can I use that with my sister? I think that might help her understand, for she is the type who embraces that whole - “just a me and Jesus only relationship”

By all means use this analogy to explain the saints in Heaven; it is not my analogy. This analogy was shared with me when I went thru my 2nd conversion by a very close friend who is like a walking encyclopedia of information on the saints. When I discovered St. Pio unexpectantly, I got in touch with my friend for info on him because I had never heard of him and she suggested that I pray to St. Pio to help my situation at that time. I was praying for someone else to be lead to repentance and conversion and miraculously, I was led to the confessional to repent of my own sin and St. Pio was known for his work in the confessional and I believe that God was trying to get my attention all along, but I was ignoring Him, so God placed St. Pio in my path to get my attention. It worked! Also this person that I was praying for was also led to the confessional a couple of years later (I drove)- and the priest who heard this person’s confession, told the person to thank me for bringing them and things are looking really positive for this person.

At the time, I was also going to a protestant church and I would note how empty it felt, and I don’t mean that the people were not reverent towards God or didn’t love Jesus because they did show God reverence and yes they love Jesus just as much as we do, but something was missing for me anyway. Can you guess what that something was?

 

[Harry1941]

Catholics also pray to the Father and to the Son, but we also seek the aid and intercession of God’s closest friends, our Blessed Mother and of all the Angels and Saints. Anyone who does not is rejecting a great source of help.

I am being helped by heaven, I study the secrets of heaven, whIch are books written by Emanuel Swedenborg, especially the Arcana Coelestia. The book is about man’s regeneration,born again. But since this topic is not about Genesi, I can’t explain too much here.

Harry:wave:.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

As I child I remember old Lutheran churches with murals of Old Testament [Moses or Elijah] figures next to the saints [generally an apostle or two or the blessed Virgin Mary] painted high above the altar. The clear message was that the Hosts of Heaven are among us. The holy people of God in heaven and earth kneeling in the very presence of our Savior. The mystical Body of Christ continues to be a huge comfort to me and I believe we actually take a step into heaven in the Mass.

 

[StillCatholic]

Can Mary forgive sins?

MJ

No, She is an intercessor, “Pray FOR us, now and at the our of our death.” I have NEVER, ever heard anyone pray that the Blessed Mother forgive us our sins.

 

[StillCatholic]

What God says to Peter (when Peter suggests equal altars for Elias and Moses) is, “Hear HIM!” (Christ.) Jesus encourages us to love HIM only. “To love the Lord your God with all of your heart, all your soul, and all your strength.” To love Him is to love God - because when we trust in Jesus, we trust in His Father also. When we trust in Jesus, we trust that God sent the Holy Spirit to become Indwelt and lead us into all truth.

What if I had a husband who promised to provide for me, but I called one of his freinds everytime I needed something? Or if I would thank one of his friends for something that my husband did for me? Wouldn’t that show a distrust of my husband’s ability to provide for me? Would it negatively affect the relationship with my husband?

Saints, to me, have their place as examples of Grace received in their lives and to marvel at how great our God/Jesus is, not for saints to ‘stand in for’.

I apologize for sounding so confrontational in the last post. I only wish to present a different way of seeing that works in amazng ways, for me. The Holy Spirit is Real.

Off to take my mother to physical therapy. Will respond to MartinJordan’s question regarding my experience of Forgiveness this evening, I hope.

May Grace be with us all.

I have listened to a teaching on this scripture from a non-Catholic pastor. He says, what the Father was addressing to the disciples was to follow His Son, not camp out on the mountain side experiencing spiritual highs. Not that there was something wrong with mountainside experiences.

 

[MartinJordan]

No, She is an intercessor, “Pray FOR us, now and at the our of our death.” I have NEVER, ever heard anyone pray that the Blessed Mother forgive us our sins.

Spot on! Protestants for whatever reason fear Catholics for treating Mary as a Goddess. How could be? Only God can forgive sins Jesus gave power to Priests (Ministerial Priesthood ie Bishops and Priests) by breathing on the Holy Spirit (3rd person of God) to them

Imagine that…Mary having less Power than Priests!

Maybe there is something deeper more Spiritual, more intimate, more Godly that the Church teaches by cementing all things that Jesus had planned and taught?

MJ

 

[aidanbradypop]

Spot on! Protestants for whatever reason fear Catholics for treating Mary as a Goddess. How could be? Only God can forgive sins Jesus gave power to Priests (Ministerial Priesthood ie Bishops and Priests) by breathing on the Holy Spirit (3rd person of God) to them

Imagine that…Mary having less Power than Priests!

Maybe there is something deeper more Spiritual, more intimate, more Godly that the Church teaches by cementing all things that Jesus had planned and taught?

MJ

A guy the other day stated that there is only ONE mediator between God and man. The mediator being Jesus Christ. If that is the case, then we should never ask one another to pray for us. We should break up all prayer groups, stop the prayer warriors on the forum and only pray for ourself. Now we know that goes against Scripture so that would be kind of silly.

 

[guanophore]

I believe that Catholics pray to God. My mom is Catholic and she says that she talks to God all the day long.

Does that mean that you were baptized Catholic? If your mom is Catholic, how did you get so many weird ideas about what Catholics believe?

 

[guanophore]

We ought to pray directly to God. People that are alive on earth can join us in our prayers directly to God. This is biblical but dead people interceding on our behave is not found in the bible.

You are right berk60.

Luke 20:38-39
8 Now he is God not of the dead, but of the living; for to him all of them are alive."

And

Rom 8:37-9:1
37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

We are members of His One Body, and that relationship does not change when the veil of flesh falls aside. Those who belong to Him are eternally alive, and not separated by death.

 

[guanophore]

I agree that the prayers of the people on earth are received by God and an angel is serving God by mixing these prayers and incense together. Were you lost me is where do you see in this text that the dead saints in heaven are interceding for us.

You are lost, berk60, if you think anyone in heaven is “dead”.

The saints are in Christ, and perfectly conformed to His will.

Heb 7:25
25 Consequently he is able for all time to save those who approach God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.

In Him, with Him, and for Him, they always live to make intercession for us, for they will never be separated from Him, and His perfect will.

OK, let me phrase this question differently so you know what I mean. From this these verses where do you see that the prayers are coming from alive saints in heaven or alive saints on earth?

Rev 4:1
After this I looked, and there in heaven a door stood open!

John was given a vision, and allowed to look through the door into heaven.

Why would you think anyone in heaven is “dead”? Why would you think that death can separate the sheep from their shepherd? Don’t you believe the whole bible? do you just ignore the parts that don’t fit with your ideas?

 If we harmonize the bible we only see alive people on earth praying.

I don’t know what “harmony” you are playing, but St. John is quite clear that he had a vision of heaven. Yet, I have been told that there are none so blind as those who do not wish to hear.

 That's why I don't think that alive people in heaven are interceding for us because it does not harmonize with the other examples we have in the bible.

You mean like Moses and Elijah talking to Jesus? Or like the prophet Samuel talking to Saul?

 

[EIF5A]

You are right berk60.

Luke 20:38-39
8 Now he is God not of the dead, but of the living; for to him all of them are alive."

And

Rom 8:37-9:1
37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

We are members of His One Body, and that relationship does not change when the veil of flesh falls aside. Those who belong to Him are eternally alive, and not separated by death.

Perhaps we should take care of the issue of semantics first – in this case, “death” is meant as physical bodily death.

Can the saints in heaven hear our prayers and pray specifically for us for a given situation upon hearing our prayers to them?

 

[guanophore]

The Holy Spirit is the interpreter of the bible. Without Him it is all foolishness.

We will all agree on this, berk60. The difference is that Catholics do not fall into the foolishness of thinking that the Holy Spirit will tell something completely contradictory to what He has been saying for 2000 years since the text was written.

Your verse answers your question. Those in Heaven praise God with there lips by singing and chanting praises to Him and even play music to go along with the praise. Nothing about holding vigils interceding all the day long.

You seem to have a very strong anti-Catholic prejudice, berk60, so strong it is keeping you from seeing the basic meaning of the text. What does the title of Rev. chapter 4 say in your bible? This entire section is describing activity that is occurring in heaven.

Rev 6:9-11
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slaughtered for the word of God and for the testimony they had given; 10 they cried out with a loud voice, “Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long will it be before you judge and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?” 11 They were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number would be complete both of their fellow servants and of their brothers and sisters, who were soon to be killed as they themselves had been killed.

The faithful who were killed for their beliefs are under the altar praying.

 

[peace2u2]

Can the saints in heaven hear our prayers and pray specifically for us for a given situation upon hearing our prayers to them?

Here’s my :twocents:

The answer to your above question is Yes, and God allows it.

2 things need to be emphazised:

1. I think you have this distorted idea that we sit and idle day and night praying to the saints in heaven and asking God to allow their intercession on our behalf. This is false. Our encounters with the saints in heaven are much like our encounters with our friends (the saints in the making) here on earth. We bump into each other occasionally, sometimes God places them in our path to get out attention.
2. There are many different types of prayer. Intercessory prayer just happens to be one of them. Remember that God is “spirit” and therefore uses “matter” or “material” sometimes in the form of “people or saints” to convey His message to us or to heal us. This is also biblical if that is how you want to look at it. The transformation on the mountain when Moses and Elijah prayed with Jesus and Peter, John and James is and has been mentioned, although you ignore it. Do you think the Saints in Heaven are dead? Because we don’t - they are very much alive.

I will give you a personal experience of praying intercessory prayer to a saint. God placed St. Pio of Pietrelcina in my path. The only intercessory prayer that I had ever prayed before was always just The Rosary (if you want to start another thread on this topic because I’m sure a lightbulb has just gone off in your head that the Rosary prayer is “repetitive” and “displeasing” to God, I would be happy to point you in the right direction), anyway, I was sitting in my livingroom, worried about the whereabouts of my son, not really knowing how to pray to a saint for their intercession, I simply said, “Dear Heavenly Father, please allow St. Pio to direct my son safely home”, no sooner did I get the words out of my mouth, I heard footsteps running down the driveway next to the window I was sitting next to. In thru the back door came my son. Yes, sometimes, God works that fast. It was God directing and allowing His faithful servant, St. Pio to participate. I do not pray to St. Pio everyday. Sometimes it is even months before I even have a thought of him. But, I do pray to God everyday and I think of Him everyday thru out my day.

For some unknown reason, you are over reaching and picking this apart to death and it is preventing you from embracing this truth of God. We are not making these things up, they are the truths of God, it is the Gospel of Jesus that we preach, protect and share… Perhaps you need to look into your heart and ask God to cleanse you of any sin that prevents you from growing in your spiritual life. Unconfessed sin creates a barrier between us and God and can hinder our prayers.
Psalm 66:18 says, “If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me.”

I do sense a little anti-catholicism going on here by some in this thread. It may be that you just don’t understand, but it seems more like your trying to convince us that were praying to dead people when were not. I think your mixing up when people have a medium contact the souls of their departed who are still on earth and haven’t left this world by their family members or friends who are worried about them, like that show Long Island Medium. Yes, that is wrong and the bible says:
Leviticus 19:31
New International Reader’s Version (NIRV)
“Do not look for advice from people who get messages from those who have died. Do not go to people who talk to the spirits of the dead. If you do, they will make you “unclean.” I am the Lord your God.”

It sounds like you are mixing up praying to the saints and having a medium contacting the departed souls…They are not the same.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Here’s my :twocents:

Thanks for adding

Another key point we must stress is that those who have left this earth and went to Paradise are more alive than we will ever be here. They have the fullness of the faith and are with God. Many Protestants believe that we “cannot pray to dead people” yet Christ never once said they were dead. The spirit never dies in Heaven nor Hell so if that is the case, the spirit is eternal. We must stress that those who are with and around God are more alive than we could ever be. We are not promised tomorrow on earth, yet the Saints are promised an eternal fellowship with Christ. Kind of sounds like they are alive to me.

I always stress that if asking the Saints to pray for us is wrong, then I ask them to stop asking others to pray for them here on earth that are dead to sin.

 

[pablope]

Here’s my :twocents:

The answer to your above question is Yes, and God allows it.

2 things need to be emphazised:

1. I think you have this distorted idea that we sit and idle day and night praying to the saints in heaven and asking God to allow their intercession on our behalf. This is false. Our encounters with the saints in heaven are much like our encounters with our friends (the saints in the making) here on earth. We bump into each other occasionally, sometimes God places them in our path to get out attention.
2. There are many different types of prayer. Intercessory prayer just happens to be one of them. Remember that God is “spirit” and therefore uses “matter” or “material” sometimes in the form of “people or saints” to convey His message to us or to heal us. This is also biblical if that is how you want to look at it. It sounds like you are mixing up praying to the saints and having a medium contacting the departed souls…They are not the same.

Let me add something to the 2cents and make it 4cents:

From the Lord’s prayer…if one really looks, one can see the Lord is laying the basis of community prayer…and the communion of Saints:

Notice the first line:

‘Our Father in heaven,

It is not “My Father”…but Our Father…

hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.

Give us today our daily bread.

It is not give me my daily bread…but “OUR” daily bread…not just my bread but everyone else’s bread.

And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.

It is not forgive me my sins or trespasses…but we pray to be forgiven for all those who sin or trespass…and forgive those who trespass against us also.

And lead us not into temptation,[a]
but deliver us from the evil one.

Likewise, it is not lead me not to temptation…but lead everyone away from temptation.

 

[Jeanne1184]

You have obviously missed my point. Cornelius was humbling himself before Peter by kneeling at his feet, and Peter rebuked him fiercely, saying that he too was a man. Cornelius was not worshipping the Apostle as God, and yet, he was rebuked.

“No one can enter Heaven unless by Mary, as though through a door.”
So says late Medieval writer Bonaventure, enthusiastically quoted by Alphonsus Liguori, later declared doctor of the Church by the Roman Catholic hierarchy.

I think naming the Holy Spirit as “Mary” is a fine example of 'vain imaginings".

The only way someone would Know, beyond doubt, the name of the Holy Spirit would be to have the name told directly to them by the Holy Spirit Within (by the will of God). And in which case, I doubt one would be called to reveal it. To introduce a human name for the Holy Spirit into the world would invite open ridicule to whatever name was pronounced. Look how much grief Jesus Christ gets, eh?

 

[EIF5A]

Here’s my :twocents:

The answer to your above question is Yes, and God allows it.

2 things need to be emphazised:

1. I think you have this distorted idea that we sit and idle day and night praying to the saints in heaven and asking God to allow their intercession on our behalf. This is false. Our encounters with the saints in heaven are much like our encounters with our friends (the saints in the making) here on earth. We bump into each other occasionally, sometimes God places them in our path to get out attention.

Our friends here on earth can talk back. Saints in heaven do not communicate directly with us usually. So no, I do not accept your view that saints in heaven are much like encounters with earthly friends.

1. There are many different types of prayer. Intercessory prayer just happens to be one of them. Remember that God is “spirit” and therefore uses “matter” or “material” sometimes in the form of “people or saints” to convey His message to us or to heal us. This is also biblical if that is how you want to look at it. The transformation on the mountain when Moses and Elijah prayed with Jesus and Peter, John and James is and has been mentioned, although you ignore it. Do you think the Saints in Heaven are dead? Because we don’t - they are very much alive.

What am I ignoring? Moses and Elijah appeared to the physical senses to the disciples on earth. This is not a common occurrence. And I never said the saints are dead – just physically not with us in bodily form.

I will give you a personal experience of praying intercessory prayer to a saint. God placed St. Pio of Pietrelcina in my path. The only intercessory prayer that I had ever prayed before was always just The Rosary (if you want to start another thread on this topic because I’m sure a lightbulb has just gone off in your head that the Rosary prayer is “repetitive” and “displeasing” to God, I would be happy to point you in the right direction),

You seem defensive. I wasn’t thinking that. But you probably thought I did because others did and I was guilty by some sort of non-existent association. I do not pray the Rosary because it’s repetitive — the Lord’s Prayer is technically repetitive as well, but I have no issue with that.

anyway, I was sitting in my livingroom, worried about the whereabouts of my son, not really knowing how to pray to a saint for their intercession, I simply said, “Dear Heavenly Father, please allow St. Pio to direct my son safely home”, no sooner did I get the words out of my mouth, I heard footsteps running down the driveway next to the window I was sitting next to. In thru the back door came my son. Yes, sometimes, God works that fast. It was God directing and allowing His faithful servant, St. Pio to participate. I do not pray to St. Pio everyday. Sometimes it is even months before I even have a thought of him. But, I do pray to God everyday and I think of Him everyday thru out my day.

Would God not have guided him safely home without praying to St. Pio? Did St. Pio participate by intercessory prayer or by directly guiding your son?

For some unknown reason, you are over reaching and picking this apart to death and it is preventing you from embracing this truth of God. We are not making these things up, they are the truths of God, it is the Gospel of Jesus that we preach, protect and share… Perhaps you need to look into your heart and ask God to cleanse you of any sin that prevents you from growing in your spiritual life. Unconfessed sin creates a barrier between us and God and can hinder our prayers.
Psalm 66:18 says, “If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me.”

Umm…excuse me. I asked a question out of genuine curiosity, but you have this mistaken notion that I’m here to attack your Catholic faith. And to boot, you judge me as a sinner because obviously, I’m not understanding you because of my unconfessed iniquities.

I do sense a little anti-catholicism going on here by some in this thread. It may be that you just don’t understand, but it seems more like your trying to convince us that were praying to dead people when were not. I think your mixing up when people have a medium contact the souls of their departed who are still on earth and haven’t left this world by their family members or friends who are worried about them, like that show Long Island Medium. Yes, that is wrong and the bible says:
Leviticus 19:31
New International Reader’s Version (NIRV)
“Do not look for advice from people who get messages from those who have died. Do not go to people who talk to the spirits of the dead. If you do, they will make you “unclean.” I am the Lord your God.”

I NEVER SAID THE SAINTS ARE DEAD AND LACK CONSCIOUSNESS! I JUST ASKED IF THEY CAN HEAR OUR INDIVIDUAL REQUESTS AND PRAY FOR THOSE PARTICULAR SITUATIONS.

I get why you’re being defensive. Perhaps you had to defend your position to numerous people in the past, and given that this is an online forum, I can be misconstrued as attacking the Catholic faith.

I just wanted to know if our prayers can be heard by saints in heaven. Notice how I’m implying they are alive, though not on this earth.

 

[EIF5A]

Let me add something to the 2cents and make it 4cents:

From the Lord’s prayer…if one really looks, one can see the Lord is laying the basis of community prayer…and the communion of Saints:

Notice the first line:

‘Our Father in heaven,

It is not “My Father”…but Our Father…

hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.

Give us today our daily bread.

It is not give me my daily bread…but “OUR” daily bread…not just my bread but everyone else’s bread.

And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.

It is not forgive me my sins or trespasses…but we pray to be forgiven for all those who sin or trespass…and forgive those who trespass against us also.

And lead us not into temptation,[a]
but deliver us from the evil one.

Likewise, it is not lead me not to temptation…but lead everyone away from temptation.

I don’t see how this is evidence for there being saints in heaven that hear our prayers.

 

[aidanbradypop]

I do not pray the Rosary because it’s repetitive — the Lord’s Prayer is technically repetitive as well, but I have no issue with that.

That really makes no sense. One is repetitive so you stay away from it but pray the other although it is “technically” repetitive?

See this is where you confuse me…Why ask others to pray for you if God can just answer your prayer?

I just wanted to know if our prayers can be heard by saints in heaven. Notice how I’m implying they are alive, though not on this earth.

The short answer…yes…They can hear us just as I can hear you. If we place the Saints in the box of our earthly limitations then it will be hard to understand such a thing.

Here is a question for you…If asking St. Patrick to pray for me does nothing, then what have I lost?

[/QUOTE]

 

[EIF5A]

aidanbradypop:

That really makes no sense. One is repetitive so you stay away from it but pray the other although it is “technically” repetitive?

No no no. It’s not the repetitive nature of a prayer. It’s the prayer itself.