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paul_barlow
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in connection with baptism.
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isaac.madsen
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No! Absolutely not!
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tkdnick
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paul barlow:
paragraph 1261 “As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: ‘Let the children come to me, do not hinder them’, allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.”
That’s our church’s position.
Again, read from the Catechism…
paragraph 1261 “As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: ‘Let the children come to me, do not hinder them’, allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.”
That’s our church’s position.
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majick275
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The catechism trumps the encyclopedia as far as doctrine is concerned.
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isaac.madsen
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I think you are misinterpreting their church, my friend. I do not condemn Catholicism. I think we have much to learn from the goodness that has been brought out of their Church. I do not think it is good to look for what is wrong in a church. Look for the things that are good. Certainly in making your decision of what church to join, you look for Doctrine that you agree with. I’ve never found reason to disagree with Mormonism, so I have always been a Mormon, but I do not condemn the Catholic church.
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isaac.madsen
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(This is in reference to Paul Barlow’s statemensts)
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paul_barlow
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isaac.madsen said:
isaac
my main quote was take Joseph F. Smiths Gospel questions. We indeed can learn things from each other. But the truth is the truth. We have a duty to teach the truth. Just as The RC church has for teaching there version of the truth. Don’t water what we belive down to be more exceptable to other our catholic friends would not. I was not condeming the parents just there doctrine of infant baptism.
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isaac.madsen
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Here is our the view on Baptism as described by the True to the Faith: a Gospel Reference:
Little Children and Baptism
From latter-day revelation, we know that little children are redeemed through the mercy of Jesus Christ. The Lord said, “They cannot sin, for power is not given unto Satan to tempt little children, until they begin to become accountable before me” (see D&C 29:46-47). They are not to be baptized until they reach the age of accountability, which the Lord has revealed to be eight years of age (see D&C 68:27; Joseph Smith Translation, Genesis 17:11). Anyone who claims that little children need baptism “denieth the mercies of Christ, and setteth at naught the atonement of him and the power of his redemption” (Moroni 8:20; see also verses 8-19, 21-24).
Little Children and Baptism
From latter-day revelation, we know that little children are redeemed through the mercy of Jesus Christ. The Lord said, “They cannot sin, for power is not given unto Satan to tempt little children, until they begin to become accountable before me” (see D&C 29:46-47). They are not to be baptized until they reach the age of accountability, which the Lord has revealed to be eight years of age (see D&C 68:27; Joseph Smith Translation, Genesis 17:11). Anyone who claims that little children need baptism “denieth the mercies of Christ, and setteth at naught the atonement of him and the power of his redemption” (Moroni 8:20; see also verses 8-19, 21-24).
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paul_barlow
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this is not what st agustine taught. has this changed?
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isaac.madsen
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Here is the Jospeh Smith translation of GENESIS 17:11-12
11 And I will establish a covenant of circumcision with thee, and it shall be my covenant between me and thee, in their generations; that thou mayest know for ever that children are not accountable before me until they are eight years old.
12 And thou shalt observe to keep all my covenants wherein I covenanted with thy fathers; and thou shalt keep the commandments which I have given thee with mine own mouth, and I will be a God unto thee and thy seed after thee.
11 And I will establish a covenant of circumcision with thee, and it shall be my covenant between me and thee, in their generations; that thou mayest know for ever that children are not accountable before me until they are eight years old.
12 And thou shalt observe to keep all my covenants wherein I covenanted with thy fathers; and thou shalt keep the commandments which I have given thee with mine own mouth, and I will be a God unto thee and thy seed after thee.
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tkdnick
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paul barlow:
Besides, what St. Augustine taught does not necessarily constitute what The Church taught.
Don’t know…I wasn’t around when Augustine was.
Besides, what St. Augustine taught does not necessarily constitute what The Church taught.
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majick275
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So then why weren’t Hebrew children circumsized at age 8?
Paul,
Augustine was an ECF, good to learn from but not doctrinally infallible. The catechism is the compilation of binding doctrine.
Paul,
Augustine was an ECF, good to learn from but not doctrinally infallible. The catechism is the compilation of binding doctrine.
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tkdnick
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This seems are REALLY strange “correction” by JS considering circumcision occurred at 8 days.
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paul_barlow
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i am not jewish why not ask a jew. i see no relevance to infant baptism diffrent covernant diffrent time.
But a lot of your doctrinal arguements are based on your ECF. you can not pick and choose they are either inspired hense being made a saint or they are not and they are then false prophets (teachers)
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paul_barlow
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this is Genesis Not connected to baptism. circumcision was to denote you as a member of Isreal. St Paul explained why we are not circumcised any more.
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arieh0310
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paul barlow:
Baptism is the New Covenant circumcision.
Colossians 2:11-12: In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.
Baptism is the New Covenant circumcision.
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tkdnick
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paul barlow:
You are correct. This does not address baptism. It does, however, address circumcision. Circumcision occurred for Jews at 8 days. JS changed the verse there to say that children are not accountable until the age of 8 years. First, the change doesn’t fit the context at all. And second, the inference from the change is that children don’t need to be circumcised until 8 years.
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tkdnick
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paul barlow:
If this is the “standard” for judging things, then you church has some SERIOUS issues with things that past prophets and apostles have said.
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isaac.madsen
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Again, I would have to disagree with Paul Barlow. I would not call a man a false prophet until he claimed to be a prophet. Who in the Catholic church has ever claimed to be a prophet and gotten away with it?
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majick275
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once again we are rescued by the catechism. You don’t have to figure out what ECF to listen to or when. The catechism tells you which teachings are doctrinally correct.
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