Why not create a free world in which none go to hell?

[Joe_Gloor]

Sins are taking the good things God gave us and by our free will making bad things from them.
Sex for example, is a really great thing and yet it is the cause of a great many sins.
God could eliminate the human desire for sex by just creating the people He wants from dust.
God could have created a world without temptation by creating no good things or, as was suggested, by just not creating anything at all.
In the goodness of creation and in the goodness of free will God created the ability to make bad things out of it.
God chooses to allow the “tares to grow amongst the wheat” and asking why it is so is like asking if God could create a stone so heavy that He could not lift it.

 

[George_Craft]

I’d like to offer this bit of Wisdom from the mouth of God:

Job 40:1 And the Lord answering Job out of the whirlwind, said:
2) Gird up thy loins like a man: I will ask thee, and do thou tell me. 3) Wilt thou make void my judgment: and condemn me, that thou mayst be justified? 4) And hast thou an arm like God, and canst thou thunder with a voice like him? 5) Clothe thyself with beauty, and set thyself up on high, and be glorious, and put on goodly garments. 6) Scatter the proud in thy indignation, and behold every arrogant man, and humble him. 7) Look on all that are proud, and confound them, and crush the wicked in their place, 8) Hide them in the dust together, and plunge their faces into the pit. 9) Then I will confess that thy right hand is able to save thee.

This was God’s reply when Job demanded answers as to why he was suffering. To question God’s reasoning in His creation is to think we know enough to recommend a better way.

Please, I’m not trying to be self-righteous here, but to my simple mind, we’re the way we are because that’s the way God made us. It must be mistake free. Free will is given by God for His purpose.

With love,
George

 

[Alterum]

I’ll try to explain using St Thomas Aquinas summa (or shorter summa like mine)… u can read about it there.

Interesting! I had never before considered this aspect of God.

 

[Alterum]

Plantinga’s Free Will Defense is generally accepted as the counterargument to your your friend’s argument (which, itself, is based on Mackie’s Evil and Omnipotence).

See here for the details.

Jeremy

Thanks for the link; it was helpful.

 

[Alterum]

Mercy is therefore NOT merely a response to evil, since it is a permanent attribute of God.

An interesting thought. St. Faustina’s diary is indeed a great read

 

[water]

An interesting thought. St. Faustina’s diary is indeed a great read

I am half way through her diary, but I don’t plan to stop reading once I finish - start page 1 again.

 

[Steven_Merten]

Just by coincidence, I’ve been reading St. Faustina’s diary, and the first thing I read last night after logging off here was paragraph 180. St. Faustina speaks of God revealing his “attributes” to her. She says:

“The third attribute is love and mercy…It unites the creature with the Creator. This immense love and abyss of mercy are made known in the Incarnation of the Word and in the Redemption…the greatest of all God’s attributes.”

So —
Mercy is an attribute of God.
God never changes.
Mercy is therefore NOT merely a response to evil, since it is a permanent attribute of God.

Perhaps to love God as strongly as God wants us to love him, we need to avail ourselves of his mercy. And if we were perfect “never do evil” sort of folks, we wouldn’t need any mercy. So our sin and God’s mercy leads us to greater love of God.

Just some thoughts.

Hello ricmat,

Are you saying that God allows billions of people to be murdered in abortion, the holocaust, war, child molestation, rape, genocide of billions of people, ect., only to show how deep His love and mercy for the purpotraters is?

Can the Church say to those suffering torture and atrocities, “We would like to help you out of love for you and love for God but we cannot because this would diminish God’s great merciful love to those who commit these atrocities against you.”?

 

[ricmat]

Hello ricmat,

Are you saying that God allows billions of people to be murdered in abortion, the holocaust, war, child molestation, rape, genocide of billions of people, ect., only to show how deep His love and mercy for the purpotraters is?

Can the Church say to those suffering torture and atrocities, “We would like to help you out of love for you and love for God but we cannot because this would diminish God’s great merciful love to those who commit these atrocities against you.”?

I’m not saying anything really. I’m not smart enough to figure it out - “attributes of God” is a mystery as far as I’m concerned, but I brought it up since it seemed to have some relevance to why God didn’t create us all as perfect always do good robots.

How you came to the conclusion that this line of thought would lead to the church saying “we can’t help you out” is also beyond me. If you’re trying to pick a fight, do it with somebody else, please

We have a responsibility to both help people out, and not to do evil, and also to be merciful, just as God is love and mercy.

.

 

[Steven_Merten]

I’m not saying anything really. I’m not smart enough to figure it out - “attributes of God” is a mystery as far as I’m concerned, but I brought it up since it seemed to have some relevance to why God didn’t create us all as perfect always do good robots.

How you came to the conclusion that this line of thought would lead to the church saying “we can’t help you out” is also beyond me. If you’re trying to pick a fight, do it with somebody else, please

We have a responsibility to both help people out, and not to do evil, and also to be merciful, just as God is love and mercy.

.

Hello ricmat,

Do you believe that to fulfill our responsibility to be merciful and help people out is love for God and love for fellow man? Also to not fulfill our responsibility to be merciful and help people out is to hate God and fellow man.

So is God attaining human love for God through man’s obedience to God’s will the reason that God allows free will? Or is there another reason that God allows all the massive human suffering and carnage in the world which flows from human freedom from the control of God’s will?

 

[ricmat]

Hello ricmat,

Do you believe that to fulfill our responsibility to be merciful and help people out is love for God and love for fellow man? Also to not fulfill our responsibility to be merciful and help people out is to hate God and fellow man.

Yes. I’m not trying to make any kind of argument to the contrary. If you inferred this from my original post then you are going in the wrong direction. As I said earlier, you should try arguing with somebody else

So is God attaining human love for God through man’s obedience to God’s will the reason that God allows free will? Or is there another reason that God allows all the massive human suffering and carnage in the world which flows from human freedom from the control of God’s will?

I doubt your contention that “God attaining human love” is the (only) reason for our free will. God doesn’t need our love, but gives us an opportunity to share in his love by choosing via free will to love him and his children. But not being God, I may be wrong about his reasoning

To your second point, since the CFs, popes, theologians, the magesterium and others throughout history have not figured out with certainty why God allows suffering etc. I can only guess based on their observations – that some good can come out of evil (through our own application of love and mercy), and that as our Father, God sometimes reprimands his adopted children when we start to do stupid things.

.

 

[ricmat]

Hello ricmat,

Are you saying that God allows billions of people to be murdered in abortion, the holocaust, war, child molestation, rape, genocide of billions of people, ect., only to show how deep His love and mercy for the purpotraters is?

Steven Merten:

Maybe this is what my “perhaps” was leading up to.

Those who sin much and are forgiven love God more than those who sin little.

Luke 7:36-7:50.

 

[Steven_Merten]

To your second point, since the CFs, popes, theologians, the magesterium and others throughout history have not figured out with certainty why God allows suffering etc. I can only guess based on their observations – that some good can come out of evil (through our own application of love and mercy), and that as our Father, God sometimes reprimands his adopted children when we start to do stupid things.

.

Hello ricmat,

I am a bit confused as to how you are understanding my second point.

One cannot love with out being allowed the option to choose not to love. God gives man free will. Both love and hate for God flow out from human freedom from the control of God’s will. If man chooses to obey God this is love for God. If man chooses sin through murder, rape, genocide, child molestation, stealing, adultery ect., this is hate for God.

God allows man free will through which both love and hate flow in order to give man the opportunity to love God. God does not need our love but God desires our love greatly and is willing to allow all the hatred sin and damnation which, along with love for God, flows out from human free will.

I would be suprized if Popes and Magisteerium through out history have not figured this out as you are suggesting.

There is no good which comes out of man using his free willed option to choose evil.
NAB SIR 15:11 Man’s Free Will.

Say not: “It was God’s doing that I fell away”; for what he hates he does not do. Say not: “It was he who set me astray”; for he has no need of wicked man. Abominable wickedness the LORD hates, he does not let it befall those who fear him. When God, in the beginning, created man, he made him subject to his own free choice. If you choose you can keep the commandments; it is loyalty to do his will. There are set before you fire and water; to whichever you choose, stretch forth your hand. Before man are life and death, whichever he chooses shall be given him.

 

[ricmat]

Hello ricmat,

I am a bit confused as to how you are understanding my second point.

One cannot love with out being allowed the option to choose not to love. God gives man free will. Both love and hate for God flow out from human freedom from the control of God’s will. If man chooses to obey God this is love for God. If man chooses sin through murder, rape, genocide, child molestation, stealing, adultery ect., this is hate for God.

God allows man free will through which both love and hate flow in order to give man the opportunity to love God. God does not need our love but God desires our love greatly and is willing to allow all the hatred sin and damnation which, along with love for God, flows out from human free will.

I would be suprized if Popes and Magisteerium through out history have not figured this out as you are suggesting.

There is no good which comes out of man using his free willed option to choose evil.

I agree with everything you said above (except the last 2 lines) and use the same arguments in my own debates.

So far as your last sentence – The good that comes out of it is the opportunity for others to choose mercy and love. As a simple example, a robber shoots your wife and she is paralyzed. The good that comes out of this is that your love and mercy may be made manifest by taking care of her, where it might otherwise have laid dormant.

Also see CCC #312.
.

 

[Sixtus]

Mercy is not a response to evil but a permanent attribute of God

I am sure you are right.

So too His love. It is said God can do anything. I am sure He cannot stop loving.

It has occured to me that God can be comprehended as ‘all in all’. Complete, nothing else is necessary to make God happy. He is perfect in every respect. He is and has everything in His power. He lacks nothing.

This God made a physical universe. He created stuff we do not even know about beyond the realms of our experience and knowledge. He created angels, super power beings of vast intellect. Then He created animals, the highest of which He called Humanity. The angels must have marvelled at these new ‘flesh’ creatures.

Then He humbled Himself to not only become a creature lower than the Angels but to allow Himself who is everything, to suffer and to die, death in a most groteseque and painful manner. He allowed Himself to be thorougly humiliated before this terrible death.

That tells me He is a humble God for He could not have humbled Himself anymore than what He did. My God, what right do I have to be proud?

There is a profound tragedy in His infinite capacity to love and His love for His creatures.

I just do not believe He wills anyone to go to hell

don’t have a conceptual problem with hell, but I was posed the following question by a friend (it’s a bit like the “problem of evil;” and nor do I have a problem with that):

If God is omniscient, omnibenevolent, omnipotent (i.e., omnimax), then He desires that all men be saved, He knows before creating them which will freely choose heaven and which will freely choose hell, and He has the power to create only those men who will go to heaven without destroying free will. So, why is it not a logical necessity that He do these things?

Who knows, maybe He has a contingency plan. A rescue plan that we do not yet know about.

 

[Steven_Merten]

I agree with everything you said above (except the last 2 lines) and use the same arguments in my own debates.

So far as your last sentence – The good that comes out of it is the opportunity for others to choose mercy and love. As a simple example, a robber shoots your wife and she is paralyzed. The good that comes out of this is that your love and mercy may be made manifest by taking care of her, where it might otherwise have laid dormant.

Also see CCC #312.
.

Hello ricmat,

How does you read Sirach which tells us that God has no need for the wicked man?

I guess I cannot imagine God saying, “One good thing about all those hundreds of millions of people having abortions is…”

NAB SIR 15:11 Man’s Free Will.
Say not: “It was God’s doing that I fell away”; for what he hates he does not do. Say not: “It was he who set me astray”; for he has no need of wicked man. Abominable wickedness the LORD hates, he does not let it befall those who fear him. When God, in the beginning, created man, he made him subject to his own free choice. If you choose you can keep the commandments; it is loyalty to do his will. There are set before you fire and water; to whichever you choose, stretch forth your hand. Before man are life and death, whichever he chooses shall be given him.

 

[Sixtus]

What about a soul in hell crying out to God ‘my God my God have mercy on me a poor sinner’. Do you suppose God who cannot help Himself but to have mercy and to love, do you suppose that soul will not have their prayer answered?

I am sure that when we hurt, the God in us hurt even more

 

[Steven_Merten]

What about a soul in hell crying out to God ‘my God my God have mercy on me a poor sinner’. Do you suppose God who cannot help Himself but to have mercy and to love, do you suppose that soul will not have their prayer answered?

I am sure that when we hurt, the God in us hurt even more

Hello Sixtus,

You seem to be reffering to Christ’s Rich Man and Lazarus story. In that story, the Rich man crying out to God for mercy, recieves no mercy.

I am not sure of your point?

LUK 16:19 The Rich Man and Lazarus

“There was a rich man who dressed in purple garments and fine linen and dined sumptuously each day. And lying at his door was a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who would gladly have eaten his fill of the scraps that fell from the rich man’s table. Dogs even used to come and lick his sores. When the poor man died, he was carried away by angels to the bosom of Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried, and from the netherworld, where he was in torment, he raised his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. And he cried out, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me. Send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am suffering torment in these flames.’ Abraham replied, ‘My child, remember that you received what was good during your lifetime while Lazarus likewise received what was bad; but now he is comforted here,** whereas you are tormented. Moreover, between us and you a great chasm is established to prevent anyone from crossing who might wish to go from our side to yours or from your side to ours**.’ He said, ‘Then I beg you, father, send him to my father’s house, for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they too come to this place of torment.’ But Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the prophets. Let them listen to them.’ He said, ‘Oh no, father Abraham, but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ Then Abraham said, ‘If they will not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone should rise from the dead.’”

 

[Steven_Merten]

I am sure you are right.

So too His love. It is said God can do anything. I am sure He cannot stop loving…

…There is a profound tragedy in His infinite capacity to love and His love for His creatures.

I just do not believe He wills anyone to go to hell.

Who knows, maybe He has a contingency plan. A rescue plan that we do not yet know about.

Hello Sixtus,

It almost sounds like you believe that Jesus would fail to love, possibly even hate, if He cast anyone into hell.

Please visit: WARNING! Jesus Does Not Forgive All

NAB JOH 5:27

“The Father has given over to him power to pass judgment because he is Son of Man; no need for you to be surprised at this, for an hour is coming in which all those in their tombs shall hear his voice and come forth. **Those who have done right shall rise to live; the evildoers shall rise to be damned.”**NAB2 MAT 25:30

And** throw this useless servant into the darkness outside **, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth.’ "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. NAB MAT 25:41

Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ **And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."****NAB MAT 13:47-50 **

The reign of God is also like a dragnet thrown into the lake, which collected all sorts of things. When it was full they hauled it ashore and sat down to put what was worthwhile into containers. What was useless they threw away. That is how it will be at the end of the world. Angels will go out and separate the wicked from the just and **hurl the wicked into the fiery furnace, where they will wail and grind their teeth. ****NAB LUK 13:23 **

Someone asked him, “Lord, will only a few people be saved?” He answered them, "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I tell you, will attempt to enter but will not be strong enough. After the master of the house has arisen and locked the door, then will you stand outside knocking and saying, ‘Lord, open the door for us.’ He will say to you in reply, ‘I do not know where you are from.’ And you will say, ‘We ate and drank in your company and you taught in our streets.’ Then he will say to you, 'I do not know where (you) are from. Depart from me, all you evildoers!’ And there will be wailing and grinding of teeth when you see Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God and you yourselves cast out.
NAB REV 22:12

“Remember, I am coming soon! I bring with me the reward that will be given to each man as his conduct deserves. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End! **Happy are they who wash their robes so as to have free access to the tree of life **and enter the city through its gates Outside are the dogs and sorcerers, the fornicators and murderers, the idol-worshipers and all who love falsehood.”

 

[ricmat]

Hello ricmat,

How does you read Sirach which tells us that God has no need for the wicked man?

I guess I cannot imagine God saying, “One good thing about all those hundreds of millions of people having abortions is…”

NAB SIR 15:11 Man’s Free Will.
Say not: “It was God’s doing that I fell away”; for what he hates he does not do. Say not: “It was he who set me astray”; for he has no need of wicked man. Abominable wickedness the LORD hates, he does not let it befall those who fear him. When God, in the beginning, created man, he made him subject to his own free choice. If you choose you can keep the commandments; it is loyalty to do his will. There are set before you fire and water; to whichever you choose, stretch forth your hand. Before man are life and death, whichever he chooses shall be given him.

I guess I’d say that it’s one quote amongst millions available, and you can’t get a complete reading from one quote.

I’d also say that “He has no need of wicked men” is in the context of someone trying to use the excuse “God made me do it” and it may not be meant to be applied in a more universal context.

So what’s your reading on CCC #311-312:

311 Angels and men, as intelligent and free creatures, have to journey toward their ultimate destinies by their free choice and preferential love. They can therefore go astray. Indeed, they have sinned. Thus has moral evil, incommensurably more harmful than physical evil, entered the world. God is in no way, directly or indirectly, the cause of moral evil.176 **He permits it, however, because he respects the freedom of his creatures and, mysteriously, knows how to derive good from it:

For almighty God. . ., because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in his works if he were not so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself.177**

312 In time we can discover that God in his almighty providence can bring a good from the consequences of an evil, even a moral evil, caused by his creatures: “It was not you”, said Joseph to his brothers, "who sent me here, but God. . . You meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive."178 From the greatest moral evil ever committed - the rejection and murder of God’s only Son, caused by the sins of all men - God, by his grace that “abounded all the more”,179 brought the greatest of goods: the glorification of Christ and our redemption. But for all that, evil never becomes a good.

.

 

[Steven_Merten]

I guess I’d say that it’s one quote amongst millions available, and you can’t get a complete reading from one quote.

I’d also say that “He has no need of wicked men” is in the context of someone trying to use the excuse “God made me do it” and it may not be meant to be applied in a more universal context.

So what’s your reading on CCC #311-312:

312 In time we can discover that God in his almighty providence can bring a good from the consequences of an evil, even a moral evil, caused by his creatures: “It was not you”, said Joseph to his brothers, "who sent me here, but God. . . You meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive."178 From the greatest moral evil ever committed - the rejection and murder of God’s only Son, caused by the sins of all men - God, by his grace that “abounded all the more”,179 brought the greatest of goods: the glorification of Christ and our redemption. But for all that, evil never becomes a good.
.

I conceed that the death of our Lord Jesus Christ, (and thus eternal life to heaven goers), at the hands of the wicked, is a very good example of good coming through God’s use of human moral choices of evil.

God did utalize the evil deeds of men to bring about Christ’s salvation. Though I am sure that Christ’s salvation would have came about even if evil men had refused to do evil to Jesus.

311 Angels and men, as intelligent and free creatures, have to journey toward their ultimate destinies by their free choice and preferential love. They can therefore go astray. Indeed, they have sinned. Thus has moral evil, incommensurably more harmful than physical evil, entered the world. God is in no way, directly or indirectly, the cause of moral evil.176 He permits it, however, because he respects the freedom of his creatures and, mysteriously, knows how to derive good from it:

For almighty God. . ., because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in his works if he were not so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself.177

As for this part, I have to wonder if you were not right about Church leaders not realizing that God has to allow man the free willed option to do evil in order to make human choices of love for God, through free willed obedience to the will of God, possible. Jesus sums up the whole bible with God’s two great commands to love God with all our hearts, with all our minds with all our strength and with all our souls and to love our neighbor as ourself. We cannot fulfill God’s great commandment to love God without the free willed options to choose between love (obedience) and hate (sin) for God. This does not seem all that “mysterious” to me.
INT 1JO 5:3

This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome.INT JOH 14:15

"If you love me, you will obey what I command." **NAB JOH 15:22 **

“If I had not come to them and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; now, however, their sin cannot be excused. To hate me is to hate my Father. Had I not performed such works among them as no one has ever done before, they would not be guilty of sin; but as it is, they have seen, and they go on hating me and my Father.”
NAB MAT 22:36 The Great Commandment.

“Teacher, which commandment of the law is the greatest?” Jesus said to him:
“‘You shall love the Lord your God
with our whole heart,
with your whole soul,
and with all your mind.’
This is the greatest and first commandment. The second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments the whole law is based, and the prophets as well.”