Why not distributism?

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I understood that. But the is minimal control if you have a venture where one party owns 51% and the other 49% are split between 2 or 3 others.

Then you have the economies of scale. You are not going to have Telecom running exclusively as small business. Nor will you have IT. (If each circuit board was manufactured by a small business concern, they’d not be affordable…and that’s not even looking at the components used in each board ).

Can you picture a wildcat petroleum refinery? (Sure, a well…but a refinery? )

The point is, dealing with each other using Christian ethics.
As I have said before, there are lots of versions of what Distributism is. The Church does not necessarily endorse any particular version of it. The Popes have spoken in favor of particular attributes of a just economic system; some of which has a classic “Distributist” flavor to it.

Pope JPII, for example, affirmed the prior teachings of the Popes regarding the widespread distribution of individual and family productive assets. however, he noted that it would have to take forms different from those of Pope Leo XIII’s day, when the major form of wealth for ordinary people was land ownership.

It does not seem to me that ownership of stocks in, say, 401Ks does not qualify. That would be particularly true of ESOPs in small to medium sized companies. But I have not seen a persuasive argument that a family’s wealth could not consist, in whole or in part, in the stock of transnational corporations or any others. Wealth is wealth, whether you control the corporation or not. People are able to go to shareholders’ meetings of even the largest corporations. They just don’t go because their share of the whole is such a small part of the overall voting rights.

But it’s interesting to go. I have done it, and even spoken, even though I didn’t have enough shares to affect the outcome of anything. I am also a minority owner in a smallish LLC and I go to those meetings and speak my mind even though I can’t outvote the majority.

But then, my vote didn’t carry the day in the 2012 presidential election either.
Well, I guess I look at this from a different angle. I see that rampant corporatism causes problems which do not seem to be soluble in a corporate system. Yes, it’s nice that we have modern stuff, but the bargain we made for it all seems like a bad one to me, and not very Catholic.

There’s more to life than iPods and economies of scale…

(Yes, I would give up all the stuff: computers, DVDs, even cars 😦 for a more people-oriented society in which we weren’t so forced to live in this ratrace in which things matter more than people and efficiency is the prime directive.)
 
Well, I guess I look at this from a different angle. I see that rampant corporatism causes problems which do not seem to be soluble in a corporate system. Yes, it’s nice that we have modern stuff, but the bargain we made for it all seems like a bad one to me, and not very Catholic.

There’s more to life than iPods and economies of scale…

(Yes, I would give up all the stuff: computers, DVDs, even cars 😦 for a more people-oriented society in which we weren’t so forced to live in this ratrace in which things matter more than people and efficiency is the prime directive.)
A practical thing to look into is the effect of institutional investing on corporate governance and management. IMHO, that is where a lot of the ethical issues come in the days.
 
Well, I guess I look at this from a different angle. I see that rampant corporatism causes problems which do not seem to be soluble in a corporate system. Yes, it’s nice that we have modern stuff, but the bargain we made for it all seems like a bad one to me, and not very Catholic.

There’s more to life than iPods and economies of scale…

(Yes, I would give up all the stuff: computers, DVDs, even cars 😦 for a more people-oriented society in which we weren’t so forced to live in this ratrace in which things matter more than people and efficiency is the prime directive.)
Well said, dear friend! God Bless you

From -± Fulton J Sheen

First, the dream. Because our early settlers broke away from the political and religious quarrels, they assumed that they were going back into Paradise. Every ticket holder on the Mayflower and their early descendants thought they were coming to the Garden of Eden where they would meet Adam before the Fall.

John Winthrop promised a “New City”; Whitman, Holmes and Thoreau described man in a state of innocence; Franklin wanted the Seal of the United States to be Moses dividing the Red Sea, showing how much we had departed from the traditions of Europe; Jefferson suggested the seal be the cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night by which the children of the New Israel were led to the Promised Land. America was the land of milk and honey; its Frontiers were illimitable – they could be pushed back and back, revealing new lands, buried gold and unlimited freedom.

The Myth of the natural goodness of man gave the assurance of an ever-increasing progress. If a man did not become wealthy, it was because he was lazy. Cream naturally comes to the top, scum sinks to the bottom. The ethic of work glorified for us the Great American Dream that one had only to dig. Progress was an ever ascending curve: it was only the past that had to be left behind.

Then the dream changed into a nightmare because our assumptions were all wrong. The dream was a reaction against European religious thought at the time of our Founding Fathers that man is intrinsically wicked. But the great religious traditions of the age never taught that man was evil, but only that his intellect was darkened and his will weakened by rebellion against God. Hence, newly found America could not be a Paradise where man could dream of unbounded wealth. Man is a weak creature whether you put him in a new United States or on the moon. But the silly notion that he is a god and America is a paradise is like trying to place a marble bust on the stem of a rose.

Politicians during election time, capitalists who have made quick fortunes in oil and psychologists who blame environment rather than an evil will for the drug anti-culture still subscribe to the American Dream. And by doing so, they contribute to the Nightmare which we are now entering.

The more you build up the expectations of a boy about the pleasure he will get from a toy, the angrier he will be when the toy breaks down. Telling youth that “America is greening” only angers them when they find it browning in the Winter of its discontent. Unbounded pride or what the Greek dramatist called ‘Hubris’, has in the second act brought a judgment and in the third act a fear of ‘Ate’ or disaster.

In this Hour of Frustration when we transfer 125 billion dollars a year to the oil producing nations, which is equal to the entire farm crop of the U.S. in one year; when over eight per cent of the population is unemployed; when our manners become crude and only our gasoline refined; when we have the feeling we have touched the Last Frontier and yet unlike mice in a maze keep knocking our heads against it; when we are forced to get along with less – when all these evidences of a broken dream are upon us, some try to drug the public conscience by telling them that Progress is still with us provided: First, we get rid of God; second, we preserve the right to climb into any bed; and third, that we be allowed to make money by pornography.

What has happened is for the best. We have learned that a man’s greatness does not depend on what he has, but on the recognition of limits. The moment we discover discipline, or the ability to limit our ego, our greatness surpasses anything in the past.

-†- Fulton J. Sheen D.D., Ph. D., ‘Bishop Sheen Writes’; November 1975.
 
We have not had true free market capitalism since the creation of the Federal Reserve system in 1913.

Chesterton’s ideas are intriguing, and clearly Adam Smith’s “Invisible Hand” theory does not ring true as long as our fallen human nature manifests itself in the marketplace.

I think I’ll look over Pope Leo XIII’s Rerum Novarum.

vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_15051891_rerum-novarum_en.html
You might want to read Pope Leo’s Encyclical “Libertas” as well. Pope Leo XIII predicted and warned of what we are facing today

vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_20061888_libertas_en.html

A few excerpts…

. If when men discuss the question of liberty they were careful to grasp its true and legitimate meaning, such as reason and reasoning have just explained, they would never venture to affix such a calumny on the Church as to assert that she is the foe of individual and public liberty. But many there are who follow in the footsteps of Lucifer, and adopt as their own his rebellious cry, “I will not serve”; and consequently substitute for true liberty what is sheer and most foolish license. Such, for instance, are the men belonging to that widely spread and powerful organization, who, usurping the name of liberty, style themselves liberals.
  1. What naturalists or rationalists aim at in philosophy, that the supporters of liberalism, carrying out the principles laid down by naturalism, are attempting in the domain of morality and politics. The fundamental doctrine of rationalism is the supremacy of the human reason, which, refusing due submission to the divine and eternal reason, proclaims its own independence, and constitutes itself the supreme principle and source and judge of truth. Hence, these followers of liberalism deny the existence of any divine authority to which obedience is due, and proclaim that every man is the law to himself; from which arises that ethical system which they style independent morality, and which, under the guise of liberty, exonerates man from any obedience to the commands of God, and substitutes a boundless license. The end of all this it is not difficult to foresee, especially when society is in question. For, when once man is firmly persuaded that he is subject to no one, it follows that the efficient cause of the unity of civil society is not to be sought in any principle external to man, or superior to him, but simply in the free will of individuals; that the authority in the State comes from the people only; and that, just as every man’s individual reason is his only rule of life, so the collective reason of the community should be the supreme guide in the management of all public affairs. Hence the doctrine of the supremacy of the greater number, and that all right and all duty reside in the majority. But, from what has been said, it is clear that all this is in contradiction to reason. To refuse any bond of union between man and civil society, on the one hand, and God the Creator and consequently the supreme Law-giver, on the other, is plainly repugnant to the nature, not only of man, but of all created things; for, of necessity, all effects must in some proper way be connected with their cause; and it belongs to the perfection of every nature to contain itself within that sphere and grade which the order of nature has assigned to it, namely, that the lower should be subject and obedient to the higher.
 
Capitalism is another political system whereby society can become plagued by sin. Greed becomes a big problem, with many looking after themselves without a thought about those in need. It creates divisions as well as a society where everything revolves around money including the welfare and health of others. Money becomes like a God to most.
 
Capitalism is another political system whereby society can become plagued by sin. Greed becomes a big problem, with many looking after themselves without a thought about those in need. It creates divisions as well as a society where everything revolves around money including the welfare and health of others. Money becomes like a God to most.
👍 👍

The problem is greed.
 
We have not had true free market capitalism since the creation of the Federal Reserve system in 1913.

Chesterton’s ideas are intriguing, and clearly Adam Smith’s “Invisible Hand” theory does not ring true as long as our fallen human nature manifests itself in the marketplace.

I think I’ll look over Pope Leo XIII’s Rerum Novarum.

vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_15051891_rerum-novarum_en.html
I think out of all the posts in this thread, yours says it best. What the US has now isn’t capitalism, or socialism, or distributism. I think it defies labeling.
 
I think out of all the posts in this thread, yours says it best. What the US has now isn’t capitalism, or socialism, or distributism. I think it defies labeling.
I’m not much of an economic theorist, but I think what we have in the U.S. is a rather uneasy mixture of all of them.

I’m not one who much believes in “fighting the tide” when it comes to economic matters. It happens that I just had a very long email conversation with my daughter-in-law about very practical things she and my son can do to engage in “self-help Distributism”. There is a “non day job” skill they could do together and in which my son is already skilled, that builds assets.

I still think Distributism is as much in the mind and intention of the participant as it is in any particular economic system. It just happens that it’s still possible in this country. In some, it isn’t.
 
I’m not much of an economic theorist, but I think what we have in the U.S. is a rather uneasy mixture of all of them.

I’m not one who much believes in “fighting the tide” when it comes to economic matters. It happens that I just had a very long email conversation with my daughter-in-law about very practical things she and my son can do to engage in “self-help Distributism”. There is a “non day job” skill they could do together and in which my son is already skilled, that builds assets.

I still think Distributism is as much in the mind and intention of the participant as it is in any particular economic system. It just happens that it’s still possible in this country. In some, it isn’t.
Like you, I see the futility of fighting it. Unfortunately (for me), my resignation to the reality of things came at the expense of several years of trying to decipher the system from top to bottom. I believe I have a very good grasp on certain aspects of it.

I could go into agonizing detail of how titles are transferred, and about how money is created (and destroyed), and how those things affect our way of life in a legal sense, but it would not change the basic reality of it all: that even though there are remedies built into the system that could unleash brotherly love throughout society in ways never before seen in the world, they are very well hidden in the laws, and guarded by the most formidable enemy of all, the love of money.

So to boil it all down to the way I see it, distributism is a viable economic model, but it would require that people enjoy full private property rights again, and most probably the willingness to endure a lower standard of living for at least a generation or two.
 
Ivdaeorum #65
Capitalism is another political system whereby society can become plagued by sin.
As long as free enterprise is mistakenly considered to be a “political system” which causes “sin”, nothing will ever be learned.

Unless and until it is understood that sin is caused by people, and that free enterprise has been developed by Catholics for the benefit of the world of saints and sinners, supported by the teaching of the acknowledged St John Paul II and, as has been shown, has raised living standards enormously for multitudes, those so misled will languish in confusion.
Jozefo #71
What the US has now isn’t capitalism, or socialism, or distributism. I think it defies labeling.
The havoc wrought not only in the U.S. but in many other economies is due largely to governments playing the fool with welfarism, and foolish economic policies, including stimuli.

Free enterprise, largely unhindered by government manipulation, allowed restoration of worthwhile conditions in the U.S.A. in the 1920’s.

What happened When No Stimuli Were Applied in the 1920 Crash In The U.S.A.?
After inflating the money supply during and after World War I, the U.S. Federal Reserve began raising the discount rate (to the banks) and the economy slowed. By the middle of 1920 production had slumped, falling by 21% over the following 12 months – conditions were worse than after the first year in the yet to come Great Depression of 1930. The federal government and federal Reserve refrained from using any Keynesian macroeconomic tools – public works spending, government deficits, inflationary monetary policy – resulting in a drastic cleaning up of credit weakness, a drastic reduction in the costs of production and the free play of private enterprise, through keeping spending and taxation low and reducing the public debt.

Thus was the rally in business production and employment that started in August 1921 soundly based, there was a quick rebound, and quite vigorous growth.[Dr Thomas E Woods Jr., *Meltdown, Regnery 2009, p 94-5].

“Harding’s handling of the Depression of 1920-21 is the primary reason why he is universally denigrated by devotees of Big Government. Upon taking office, Harding inherited an economy that was reeling from dislocations caused by World War I. In a few months, wholesale prices collapsed by more than 40 percent. Production plunged over 20 percent. Unemployment zoomed from under 3 percent to over 11 percent. 1920-21 saw the most rapid, severe economic downturn our country has ever experienced.” In We Could Use a Man Like Warren Harding Again, adjunct faculty member, economist, and contributing scholar with The Center for Vision & Values at Grove City College – Dr. Mark W. Hendrickson – points out that President Harding’s “response was to restrain government and let the free market make the necessary adjustments. He didn’t ‘do nothing,’ as President Obama implied when touting his ‘stimulus’ plan; rather, he cut taxes and slashed federal spending 10-20 percent per year. Prices were allowed to fall, supply and demand readjusted, and by 1922 the depression was over. During the next few years, unemployment dove while production soared 60 percent. Harding presided over one of the greatest economic success stories in American history.”
[By Dr. Mark W. Hendrickson, August 12, 2009
We Could Use a Man Like Warren Harding Again]
 
Like you, I see the futility of fighting it. Unfortunately (for me), my resignation to the reality of things came at the expense of several years of trying to decipher the system from top to bottom. I believe I have a very good grasp on certain aspects of it.

I could go into agonizing detail of how titles are transferred, and about how money is created (and destroyed), and how those things affect our way of life in a legal sense, but it would not change the basic reality of it all: that even though there are remedies built into the system that could unleash brotherly love throughout society in ways never before seen in the world, they are very well hidden in the laws, and guarded by the most formidable enemy of all, the love of money.

So to boil it all down to the way I see it, distributism is a viable economic model, but it would require that people enjoy full private property rights again, and most probably the willingness to endure a lower standard of living for at least a generation or two.
I think you are exactly correct in saying distributism requires a willingness to endure a lower standard of living for a generation or two. Possibly we agree on why that’s so, and possibly we don’t. I don’t know. But let’s explore it.

While there are certainly exceptions, I believe that generally speaking the individual and family acquisition of productive, inheritable assets is a multigenerational project. Each generation builds on the accomplishments of the last one in terms of assets, education and the self-discipline to “do without”. If each generation serves itself with as much consumption as it can (usually barely) afford, the next generation is impoverished to a degree in all of those things.

Why is it important? Well, for the very reasons the Popes have given. Even a smallish degree of independence in resources frees a person and a family; in terms of time together, joint pursuits, and perhaps most importantly in terms of having the freedom of mind to pursue the teachings of one’s faith. If we’re overly wedded to consuming, we automatically become overly wedded to the means of income and therefore the culture and mores of the employment we have. We tend to adopt the corporate culture which might, on its own, not be so bad, but which cannot be the center of our lives and thinking. On the other hand, if we look to government for our sustenance and benefits, we tend to adopt its mores and culture. Either way, we become slaves to an organization that does not have our ultimate goal (salvation) in mind whatever. It’s a sort of mild version of Stockholm Syndrome. We begin to think like our captors precisely because we’re captives.

Among the ways one can look at money, however, is that it’s “time in a capsule”. When I work on something and am paid for it, the pay represents hours or days of my life. It’s what I spent my life doing for some period of the short time I have on this earth. So, should I respect it or disdain it? In my mind, it’s to be respected, just as one should respect the time he is given on this earth. But it is not to be made an idol. We are commanded to have no strange gods before God. Not money, nor time. Both are creatures.

And so, if by working we convert the time we have on this earth to the betterment of the life of another, we have spent it well, even though it’s indirect. Is there a difference between working in a soup kitchen for X hours and donating the amount of money I would make in the same number of hours? There can be, but not if I properly understand what money is and if I properly understand why I am putting in the hours while I am putting them in. Chances are I’m much more efficient at what I ordinarily do for a living than I would be in putting food on plates in a soup kitchen.

But then, in the kitchen we actually have contact with the people, don’t we? We give them something they could not have for themselves through their own efforts or they wouldn’t be there. We know something of their lives; perhaps gain some understanding of them. If they’re poor and ragged, perhaps it’s easier for us to see the Face of Christ in them. But when I work at what I do, I’m actually doing the same thing. I’m doing for someone that which they have not the talent or training to do for themselves. If that was not so, they wouldn’t be willing to pay me to do it. It’s harder, I’ll grant, to see that I’m relieving them of some burden, easing something for them, making something for them and seeing the Face of Christ in them if they’re better off; perhaps even wealthy and finely groomed.

But we’re still doing the same thing. And in building independent means, however small, for our children, our grandchildren, we’re doing the same thing. We’re helping them with family formation (a difficult business nowadays for sure) if nothing else.

So, I respect money for those purposes because I respect the time God has given me on this earth. And I wish to spend both well.
 
Well said, dear friend! God Bless you

From -± Fulton J Sheen

First, the dream. Because our early settlers broke away from the political and religious quarrels, they assumed that they were going back into Paradise. Every ticket holder on the Mayflower and their early descendants thought they were coming to the Garden of Eden where they would meet Adam before the Fall.

John Winthrop promised a “New City”; Whitman, Holmes and Thoreau described man in a state of innocence; Franklin wanted the Seal of the United States to be Moses dividing the Red Sea, showing how much we had departed from the traditions of Europe; Jefferson suggested the seal be the cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night by which the children of the New Israel were led to the Promised Land. America was the land of milk and honey; its Frontiers were illimitable – they could be pushed back and back, revealing new lands, buried gold and unlimited freedom.

-†- Fulton J. Sheen D.D., Ph. D., ‘Bishop Sheen Writes’; November 1975.
I loved your post.

To the degree those settlers thought that, they neglected to remember that God set an angel with a sword of flame to guard the gate of Eden. We can’t go back in this life. And ever since then, we have been tempted by the siren song of those who maintain, for their own purposes, that we can. And we want to believe it, and sometimes do terrible things in pursuit of it.

But it must also remembered that while God admonished Adam and Eve that they would “eat their bread in the sweat of their brows”, he simultaneously told them that by their sweat they would, indeed, earn bread in the way His will now intended. They would have bread at least, and it would be earned, and it was okay for them to earn it and to eat it.

So there we are. That’s our world. We are to earn our bread by His will, and when we do, it is His will that we eat it.
 
I loved your post.

To the degree those settlers thought that, they neglected to remember that God set an angel with a sword of flame to guard the gate of Eden. We can’t go back in this life. And ever since then, we have been tempted by the siren song of those who maintain, for their own purposes, that we can. And we want to believe it, and sometimes do terrible things in pursuit of it.

But it must also remembered that while God admonished Adam and Eve that they would “eat their bread in the sweat of their brows”, he simultaneously told them that by their sweat they would, indeed, earn bread in the way His will now intended. They would have bread at least, and it would be earned, and it was okay for them to earn it and to eat it.

So there we are. That’s our world. We are to earn our bread by His will, and when we do, it is His will that we eat it.
Thank you,dear friend.

We even see the progressives back through the ages, as in the case where Saint Hilary of Poitiers recognized what Constantius the Arian was doing in the 4th century.

Of course, things have progressed from there into many blends of Socialism through the ages

From the words of Blessed Saint Hilary of Poitiers…

‘But nowadays, we have to do with a disguised persecutor, a smooth-tongued enemy, a Constantius who has put on Antichrist; who scourges us, not with lashes, but with caresses who instead of robbing us, which would give us spiritual life, bribes us with riches, that he may lead us to eternal death; who thrusts us not into the liberty of a prison, but into the honours of his palace, that he may enslave us: who tears not our flesh, but our hearts; who beheads not with a sword, but kills the soul with his gold; who sentences not by a herald that we are to be burnt, but covertly enkindles the fire of hell against us. He does not dispute with us, that he may conquer; but he flatters us, that so he may lord it over our souls. He confesses Christ, the better to deny Him; he tries to procure a unity which shall destroy peace; he puts down some few heretics, so that he may also crush the Christians; he honours Bishops, that they may cease to be Bishops; he builds up Churches, that he may pull down the Faith. -Saint Hilary of Poitiers
 
@Ridgerunner I like the way you write.

Money is one of the most misunderstood things in existence. Even saying it exists is treading on dangerous territory, because money is in our minds. Money is an idea, and a collection of ideas; it’s communication, and information.

Money is the blood in society that makes commerce possible among the highest number of people. It is at the bedrock of society. When Adam And Eve believed the lie, they took what wasn’t there’s to take. According to God, the debt they incurred was payable only by one kind of money, the bread of life.

A blood payment became due, and he slaughtered an animal, or maybe two. The blood spilled was akin to a loan. It was spilled as an interest only payment against the debt, until such time lawful money became available. Now here we see a very charitable creditor.

The skins from the sacrificed animal(s) God then gave to Adam and Eve. This was their receipt in hand, held as their proof that one day, their debt would be repaid. There is a maxim in law that states: for every right there must be a remedy. God had a right to seek payment from Adam, since he and Eve had stolen from God (among other things, but that’s a different subject). Since He had the right, he also had the obligation to bring a remedy. Otherwise the the blood debt was immediately due and payable, but his Mercy and Grace provide a way out: Christ.

So you see money can be seen even in the Garden of Eden. And still people do not understand it.
 
@Ridgerunner I like the way you write.

Money is one of the most misunderstood things in existence. Even saying it exists is treading on dangerous territory, because money is in our minds. Money is an idea, and a collection of ideas; it’s communication, and information.

Money is the blood in society that makes commerce possible among the highest number of people. It is at the bedrock of society. When Adam And Eve believed the lie, they took what wasn’t there’s to take. According to God, the debt they incurred was payable only by one kind of money, the bread of life.

A blood payment became due, and he slaughtered an animal, or maybe two. The blood spilled was akin to a loan. It was spilled as an interest only payment against the debt, until such time lawful money became available. Now here we see a very charitable creditor.

The skins from the sacrificed animal(s) God then gave to Adam and Eve. This was their receipt in hand, held as their proof that one day, their debt would be repaid. There is a maxim in law that states: for every right there must be a remedy. God had a right to seek payment from Adam, since he and Eve had stolen from God (among other things, but that’s a different subject). Since He had the right, he also had the obligation to bring a remedy. Otherwise the the blood debt was immediately due and payable, but his Mercy and Grace provide a way out: Christ.

So you see money can be seen even in the Garden of Eden. And still people do not understand it.
Dear Friend,

The Church does not tie what you’re saying into money as being the greatest repayment of debt to be repaid for sin,its merciful act of love of Neighbor not money.

Try understanding that the poorest of the poor have no money and by just giving a glass of water is enough for reparation of sin and is greater than the millionaire who gives $500,000 to the poor in the eyes of our Lord
 
Dear Friend,

The Church does not tie what you’re saying into money as being the greatest repayment of debt to be repaid for sin,its merciful act of love of Neighbor not money.

Try understanding that the poorest of the poor have no money and by just giving a glass of water is enough for reparation of sin and is greater than the millionaire who gives $500,000 to the poor in the eyes of our Lord
Hi friend,

Please don’t misunderstand. I’m not speaking for the Church. I introduced a mental model about money that fits the Scriptural narrative. I think it helps understand what happened in the beginning, and illuminate some of the misconceptions that people have about money.

Money is communication. God tells us that a sacrifice was required; a perfect sacrifice to atone for our sin/debts. He provided one. I accept the offer, and claim the redemption. Jesus paid the price, every last bit. On the Cross, our Lord uttered, "It is finished." He paid the bill! How great is that!?

In the spirit of being teachable, I implore you to teach me where I’ve spoken in error.
 
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