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Stfassisi
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Thanks for the clarification. I’m glad to see a forum like this where humbleness prevails
I wish you a Blessed Evening!
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I wish you a Blessed Evening!
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fallow_spirit
Guest
Right, that’s true. I’m just saying that seems like the attitude that ‘capitalism is a Christian thing’ is more common in America than other parts of the world. IDK maybe I’m wrong.
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fallow_spirit
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definitely agree about the GOP… although wait I identify most as a Republican (though a moderate one) Guess we have a bit of a hypocrite in all of us
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Robert_Sock
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All that’s missing in our current system is humanitarian values; putting an end to poverty. It’s greed that’s dragging us down. It’s truly great nations like the Vatican and Israel that can save the world.
A worldwide government built on humanitarian values, that’s where we need to be headed.
A worldwide government built on humanitarian values, that’s where we need to be headed.
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Abu
Guest
The Popes have moved from the re-distributist theory to acknowledging that all need to understand how to produce wealth through free enterprise as the West had learned. As Fr James A Schall, S.J., explains: “This success was not primarily an exploitation or an injustice. It consisted in learning new ways of production and distribution that depended on intelligence, enterprise, and work, methods that did not in principle take away anything from anyone. These new methods proceeded from what exists, through the most basic of human resources, human knowledge and skill, to fashion new wealth. This approach was the real key to helping the poor, a key that often seemed to be understood everywhere better than in the Church.” (*Does Catholicism Still Exist?, *Alba House, 1994, p 177).
It is only those who know nothing of the origins of free enterprise, from the Monks in the ninth century to the Catholic Late Scholastic Philosophers and supported by Blessed John Paul II in Centesimus Annus and Pope Benedict XVI in Caritas et Veritate, who fail to understand the worth of free enterprise.
“Since the Catholic Church wants poverty confronted, since She wants this confrontation to be done justly and with the interest and cooperation of the workers and the poor, She has had to acknowledge, as did the socialist systems themselves, that there are certain ways that must be employed if mankind is to meet its economic problems. These ways can be known and imitated, but they must include a juridical system, profit, enterprise, knowledge, exchange, a market, voluntary organisations, a relatively independent economy, private property, and respect for work and excellence.” (Fr James V Schall, S.J., in *Does Catholicism Still Exist?, *Alba House 1994, p 184-185).
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markomalley
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If you take a look at how capitalism is manifested in other parts of the world as compared to the US, the reason why becomes apparent (we are talking about capitalism without any regard to Christian ethics here).
In a lot of areas of the world, they still engage in human trafficking that even the most hard-nosed person in the US would be appalled at. People being coerced to moved to another country and then, upon their arrival, having their passports confiscated so they can’t leave their host country. People being locked into their factory shops so they can’t escape. Parents selling their children into slavery (either as child laborers or as child prostitutes).
As a rather famous example, consider the Foxconn factory where iPhones are made. They pay their workers $288 a month. That’s about $1 an hour. Conditions are such that they have suicide nets installed to prevent workers from offing themselves. Read about it:
Riots, suicides, and other issues in Foxconn’s iPhone factories
Or you have the Rana Plaza clothing factory in Dhaka, Bangladesh, where workers are paid about $44 dollars a month (about $0.15 per hour) to work in appalling conditions (their building collapsed, you may recall). Read about it: Bangladesh factory collapse toll passes 1,000 (you may wish to keep that in mind the next time you try buying clothing from places like Cato, Dress Barn, Benetton, Walmart, Sears, etc.)
Without Christian ethics, horrific things can happen. That’s not only true with capitalism, it’s true with any economic system.
The difference is that it is possible to operate in a capitalist system as a Christian. But the idea of Christian Socialism is an oxymoron.
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St_Francis
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Any economic system would require some constraints. Distributism advocates a fre**er **market than our current US system, so why people pit the free market *against *distributism?
What was described as occurring in Asia (as well as elsewhere–even in the US!) with sex trade, etc, is what “free market anarchy” leads to, because the advocates of FMA and even a less-regulated free market don’t take into account the differences in power/need between the rich and the poor.
We just need to work towards regulating better, not de-regulating. Acknowledging how much of the economic woes in the US are caused by *poor *government regulations does not mitigate that other government regulations have been good ones.
What was described as occurring in Asia (as well as elsewhere–even in the US!) with sex trade, etc, is what “free market anarchy” leads to, because the advocates of FMA and even a less-regulated free market don’t take into account the differences in power/need between the rich and the poor.
We just need to work towards regulating better, not de-regulating. Acknowledging how much of the economic woes in the US are caused by *poor *government regulations does not mitigate that other government regulations have been good ones.
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Ranp
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markomalley
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I end up talking about Christian ethics repeatedly because without them, no amount of regulation, no matter how well intentioned, will eliminate abuse.
John Adams was very prescient when he wrote:
While our country remains untainted with the principles and manners which are now producing desolation in so many parts of the world; while she continues sincere, and incapable of insidious and impious policy, we shall have the strongest reason to rejoice in the local destination assigned us by Providence. But should the people of America once become capable of that deep simulation towards one another, and towards foreign nations, which assumes the language of justice and moderation, while it is practising iniquity and extravagance, and displays in the most captivating manner the charming pictures of candour, frankness, and sincerity, while it is rioting in rapine and insolence, this country will be the most miserable habitation in the world. **Because we have no government, armed with power, capable of contending with human passions, unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge and licentiousness would break the strongest cords of our Constitution, as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. **Oaths in this country are as yet universally considered as sacred obligations. That which you have taken, and so solemnly repeated on that venerable ground, is an ample pledge of your sincerity and devotion to your country and its government.
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St_Francis
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It seems that people are saying that the reason we have problems with our (US) current corporate system is greed, envy, etc, and I very much agree that were we each to be virtuous holy persons things would not be so bad, but…
I think there are *also *structural problems, among which are 1. the diffusion of moral responsibility, which would be only somewhat mitigated if everyone were holy; 2. the movement of profit away from the locale in which the goods are made; and 3. (which might be related to #1) the need for the entities in the system to make extra amounts of profit.
I think there are *also *structural problems, among which are 1. the diffusion of moral responsibility, which would be only somewhat mitigated if everyone were holy; 2. the movement of profit away from the locale in which the goods are made; and 3. (which might be related to #1) the need for the entities in the system to make extra amounts of profit.
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Cirdan_XII
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Quite simple, because some people do things not for personal gain but because they want to help society. That’s why some people die for good causes. It’s what makes people heroes.
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Cirdan_XII
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No, that’s market economy.
Capitalism is a specific philosphy that didn’t emerge until about the 17th and 18th Century and that is rooted in the same philosphical substrate as the reformation, preaching that there is no absolute moral authority but only relative authority. It’s the panglossianism of economics because it states that the market always solves things for the better, and by consequence everything that is must be good. So if you’re poor its your fault because you’re lazy, and it’s good that you are poor as that is your just punishment for being lazy. But if you’re lazy but just inherited a billion dollars that is also good because it was your dad’s freedom to leave it to you. Ultimately capitalism is the lazy philospher’s defenece of the status quo.
It’s the modern day equivelent if you like of The Divine Right of Kings. Back in the day, kings said, I am your king because God wanted me to be king. So my will is God’s will, therefore you have to obey me and cannot criticise me.
See the pattern?
Most things that are sold as capitalist today are not capitalist bujt a mix of capitalism with interventionism and distributism…
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Jozefo
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Great points, especially #1.
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PeterGStanley
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Your possessions and money will control you and turn your nose up to the poor. Better to face God as a poor man than a rich man.One rich man that has got it right is Bill Gates - he gave half his fortune ( 48% of his net wealth) to charity and he didn’t just give the money away he actually directs the funds to where they are most needed. Hopefully some more of the super rich will follow suit.
The currant state of Capitalism is completely greed motivated and unsustainable and they know it and continue with their greedy agenda knowing it will collapse one day.When that day comes millions will die of starvation because massive hoarding will go on - its our nature we are selfish beings.The bottom line is profits - if its free its un-American and evil.
Enjoy your empire of dirt because thats all it is.
The currant state of Capitalism is completely greed motivated and unsustainable and they know it and continue with their greedy agenda knowing it will collapse one day.When that day comes millions will die of starvation because massive hoarding will go on - its our nature we are selfish beings.The bottom line is profits - if its free its un-American and evil.
Enjoy your empire of dirt because thats all it is.
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Gidge
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Bill Gates is a proponent of eugenics, abortion and population control.
Much of his “charity” is aimed in this direction.
Did you know Bill Gates’ father was one of the founders of planned parenthood ?
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markomalley
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I agree that there are structural problems particularly with the migration of capital. Again, this would not be such a severe issue if we were back in a pre-industrial state. An agrarian existence where manufactured goods were largely made by artisans.
While some of us may be capable of grabbing our copies of the Foxfire books and living off the land, I really don’t think you’d have to many takers on that (as a matter of choice, at least).
As I’ve said earlier, you aren’t going to make computers, you’re not going to make modern cars, and you’re not going to make cell phones or their networks on a small co-op basis.
While you may be willing to live without them, are people going to be willing to give up their MRIs, their micro-surgeries, their transplants, their statin drugs, their hearing aids, and so on, as well?
All of those things require large amounts of capital investment. Without it, you are simply not going to be able to produce those kinds of goods. And even if you can, they would be virtually unaffordable.
If corporate leaders pay their people as well as they are able, if they negotiate fairly with their vendors, and if they pocket a reasonable amount of profit…shared with tyre stockholders to include employees , while using the majority of it to invest in the business (improved technology, infrastructure upgrades, etc) in order to help workers be more productive…which would enable them to be better reimbursed), and so on…in other words, applying Christian ethics…three would be a negligible problem.
That is difficult, but doable. Going to a pre-industrial state, not so much.
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St_Francis
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As a much-failed gardener, I totally agree with you
I don’t think we would need to go back to a pre-industrial time. I believe that we can build MRIs and all the rest without corporations, with, hmmm, what might be called locally-owned enterprises.
But this is probably a discussion which has no conclusion. I am proposing a system which does not exist; you are proposing an adjustment which does not exist to a current sustem. I think that my proposal would require less goodness than yours, encourage more goodness than yours, but which does need more goodness than currently exists. But i also believe that part of the reason for the lack of goodness is the distraction caused by the actions of the current system…
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Jozefo
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You might find this interesting: *In the face of the global financial crisis that has Spain’s unemployment level standing currently at some 22 per cent, the Mondragon co-operatives offer an astonishingly successful alternative to the way we organise business and economies. *As a much-failed gardener, I totally agree with you
I don’t think we would need to go back to a pre-industrial time. I believe that we can build MRIs and all the rest without corporations, with, hmmm, what might be called locally-owned enterprises.
But this is probably a discussion which has no conclusion. I am proposing a system which does not exist; you are proposing an adjustment which does not exist to a current sustem. I think that my proposal would require less goodness than yours, encourage more goodness than yours, but which does need more goodness than currently exists. But i also believe that part of the reason for the lack of goodness is the distraction caused by the actions of the current system…
More at distributistreview.com/mag/2011/10/mondragon-revisited/
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Ridgerunner
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I suspect you’re overdefining “capitalism”.
But I don’t think you’re overstating where much of the “classic” concept came from. But I would still quibble that its perhaps best known “disciple”, Adam Smith, was actually a deist, who (it is believed) really thought there is an “invisible hand” in the same sort of way Masons think there is a “Great Architect” who made the world then withdrew from it. Since the “god” of both is not a personal god, then naturally what happens to individuals when the “invisible hand” moves, is of no moral consequence.
I entirely agree that the current “capitalist” system in the U.S. is a mixture of free market, interventionism and distributism. But it is only because of the free market (“capitalism” to me) that Distributism can even exist. In general, you have to be able to earn and acquire assets before you can have them.
A bit off your post, but I’ll say it because I like it. I greatly like one thing Augustine and Aquinas said about “justice in trade”. Justice is achieved when each individual gives that which he values less for that which he values more. We do that all the time. If I have $X and want milk and am willing to buy the milk for $X, then obviously I value the milk more than i value the $X or the time I spent earning the $X. Likewise, the person with the milk values the dollars more than he does the milk or the time and trouble it took him to acquire the milk.
In reality, that’s what every person is at least trying to do in a reasonably free economy.
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Rence
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If distributism suddenly became the law of the land here, I’d just quit my job and hold my hand out and collect like everyone else. Why would I continue to work when my earnings would be taken away from me. I put myself through school (still paying it off) and work hard. That’s right, it’s just silly.
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