Why not just combine the extra ordinary and Novus Ordo Mass

[marlo]

Hi there

I truly believed in Vatican II council however, Pope Paul VI believed that when the liturgy is changed that the Protestants will come back to the church, that did not happen.

If we have an new ecumenical council and combine Novus Ordo with the Extra Ordinary form, Just like the traditional Mass on the Vernacular, that would be better right?

would you think that more protestant would come back to the church?

thanks
marlo

 

[Cluny]

It’s not the Mass that keeps Protestants out of the Church.

It’s doctrinal issues.

 

[bilop]

Hi there

I truly believed in Vatican II council however, Pope Paul VI believed that when the liturgy is changed that the Protestants will come back to the church, that did not happen.

If we have an new ecumenical council and combine Novus Ordo with the Extra Ordinary form, Just like the traditional Mass on the Vernacular, that would be better right?

would you think that more protestant would come back to the church?

thanks
marlo

No. I think the EF is more likely to bring Protestants back. They need to see what makes us Catholics, what is different about the Church. The current OF looks way too much like any Protestant service.

I think it might be possible to allow certain parts of the EF to be in the vernacular (From my readings of the Council documents I believe this is what was envisioned by the bishops at Vatican II). For example the ordinary of the Mass (Introibo, Confiteor, Gloria, Credo, Canon, Pater Noster, etc.) the unchanging parts, should remain in Latin (Greek). The people should learn them. The Propers (the parts that change daily, including the reading/Gospel) could be in the vernacular.

God Bless

 

[weepixie71]

i think you may have something to that. all you have to do is convince liberal catholics to practice the novus ordo mass like it was originally intended . since the novus ordo is not ran like vatican II originally intended, how about just changing it back.. then you have yourself a combination of the two.
for me anyway, i do not trust what the Catholic Church would not abuse another mass. i will always stick with my Tridentine Mass as long as God sees to that it is permitted because it is proven through the many saints God gave us that it is a mass God enjoys from us.

 

[Chatter163]

It’s not the Mass that keeps Protestants out of the Church.

It’s doctrinal issues.

The Mass is not a doctrinal issue?

 

[bilop]

The Mass is not a doctrinal issue?

Not the specific form, no. Otherwise, Paul VI couldn’t have changed it, and the different Sui Juris Churches couldn’t have different Liturgies and be in Communion.

There are doctrines about what happens in the Mass (Transubstantiation), but not about the particular form.

God Bless

 

[Evan]

Ok, so a new form combining the EF and OF is made.

Now we have those of us who love the EF,

those of us who also love the OF,

and those of us who love the EOF.

I would probably fall in love with each, what’s not to love about the mass, I also love the Divine Liturgy of John Chrysostom and the High Mass of my youth, the OF with Mozarts Requim (especially when done in the cathedral)

I don’t know if we need another form of the mass.

 

[brigid12]

It’s not the Mass that keeps Protestants out of the Church.

It’s doctrinal issues.

I agree, and I also agree that the EF is more likely to bring some Protestants back home. Beauty and reverence draw people and Imho, the EF often has much more of those. I really think that different people are drawn by different things (look at marital partners and look at the people who think the Cathedral in LA is great). The Lord made us with all sorts of differences and somehow, I think, we need to find a common faith/unity while respecting diversity. Our Lady of Guadelupe portrayed herself a little differently than she portrayed herself in Fatima or Lourdes. I think that we need to do that, while keeping the Truth.

 

[Fuerza]

Personally I think that they should just bring back the 1965 missal. Granted I wasn’t around when it was used, but on paper it seems like the ideal solution. A largely vernacular version of the Tridentine with a few Latin prayers retained and greater participation from the congregation…seems perfect to me. If it had ever been given a fair shake maybe both sides would be happy.

 

[Timothysis]

i will always stick with my Tridentine Mass as long as God sees to that it is permitted because it is proven through the many saints God gave us that it is a mass God enjoys from us.

God “enjoys” the Mass??? Is this some new “traditional” belief???

 

[I_Believe]

Hi there

I truly believed in Vatican II council however, Pope Paul VI believed that when the liturgy is changed that the Protestants will come back to the church, that did not happen.

If we have an new ecumenical council and combine Novus Ordo with the Extra Ordinary form, Just like the traditional Mass on the Vernacular, that would be better right?

would you think that more protestant would come back to the church?

thanks
marlo

Hi Marlo. Please consider the words of this holy priest…

“In recent times, even in materialist North America, the growth of the Church was magnificent with the liturgy being kept in Latin. The attempts of the Protestants have failed, and Protestantism uses the vernacular. We ask again: Why the change, especially since changes in this matter involve many difficulties and great dangers? All of us here at the Council can recall the fundamental changes in the meaning of words in common use. Thus it follows that if the Sacred Liturgy were in the vernacular, the immutability of doctrine would be endangered.
The introduction of the vernacular should be separated from the action of the Mass. The Mass must remain as it is. Grave changes in the liturgy introduce grave changes in dogmata.”
-James Cardinal McIntyre addressing the Second Vatican Council.

Every single fear he expressed has materialized.

 

[brigid12]

Although I like learning other languages, I am very aware that some people have different gifts. Using Latin (a language that is no longer used so is not still mutating) seems so sensible to me, however I realize that for some it would be a real hardship since it may cause them to lose faith. I don’t know what should be done about this except to have more than one form of Mass. The mutation of doctrine would still effect those who went to Mass in the vernacular, tho’.

 

[I_Believe]

Although I like learning other languages, I am very aware that some people have different gifts. Using Latin (a language that is no longer used so is not still mutating) seems so sensible to me, however I realize that for some it would be a real hardship since it may cause them to lose faith. I don’t know what should be done about this except to have more than one form of Mass. The mutation of doctrine would still effect those who went to Mass in the vernacular, tho’.

Hi Brigid, I understand what you are saying, but really, how many times does one have to hear Dominus vobiscum to learn it means “the Lord be with you” ?

We only need learn a handful of Latin phrases, and a couple of Greek phrases. The rest is right there in english next to the Latin in the missal.

Latin won’t make one lose Faith. But the vernacular can sure confuse us. Look at “Pro multis” Pro multis= for many. But it’s a perfect example of what Cardinal McIntyre feared.
For years, we have heard the incorrect translation, “for all”. This is going to be fixed soon, but, priests still say "for all ".

 

[brigid12]

Hi Brigid, I understand what you are saying, but really, how many times does one have to hear Dominus vobiscum to learn it means “the Lord be with you” ?

We only need learn a handful of Latin phrases, and a couple of Greek phrases. The rest is right there in english next to the Latin in the missal.

Latin won’t make one lose Faith. But the vernacular can sure confuse us. Look at “Pro multis” Pro multis= for many. But it’s a perfect example of what Cardinal McIntyre feared.
For years, we have heard the incorrect translation, “for all”. This is going to be fixed soon, but, priests still say "for all ".

I personally agree, but I do know some people who just seem to block out what they hear - look at the number of immigrants to this country who couldn’t ever really get the hang of English (it was thought that they “refused” but I think it may have something to do with a genetic capability). I’m thinking of people who don’t even know English yet or those, like some priests I’ve heard that were in seminary before VII and said they could never learn Latin and didn’t like it - God loves them, too. How can they worship (apparently some laity had problems before VII, also and they wouldn’t have had to learn much Latin to speak)?

 

[OhMalley]

Hi there

I truly believed in Vatican II council however, Pope Paul VI believed that when the liturgy is changed that the Protestants will come back to the church, that did not happen.

If we have an new ecumenical council and combine Novus Ordo with the Extra Ordinary form, Just like the traditional Mass on the Vernacular, that would be better right?

would you think that more protestant would come back to the church?

thanks
marlo

The Church did not give us the OF so that Protestants would return to the Church. As it is we have the OF and the EF in the Latin Rite. All bases are covered.

What would bring Protestants to the Church is the same thing that will retain existing Catholics. A serious focus on the Seven Sacraments. Strong and lasting emphasis on evangelization. More and better catechesis for all Catholics.

Catholics are deeply blessed to have the absolutely fullness of the faith through the Church. How that manifests and local parishes is often lamentable.

 

[malphono]

Personally I think that they should just bring back the 1965 missal. Granted I wasn’t around when it was used, but on paper it seems like the ideal solution. A largely vernacular version of the Tridentine with a few Latin prayers retained and greater participation from the congregation…seems perfect to me. If it had ever been given a fair shake maybe both sides would be happy.

The “interim Missal” of 1965 was fine in and of itself, but the problem is that it lasted about 5 minutes in its original form before it was ravaged by the “spirit of Vatican II” (ugh). In principle it was quite good, but in the end it turned out to be an experiment gone terribly wrong.

Could it be resuscitated? Probably. Could it work the second time around? Probably. But in order to do so it would, IMHO, need to have the strict rubrics and instructions of the EF. It’s the dearth of rubrics and instructions (as in the OF) that caused the “interim Missal” to usher-in the post-conciliar liturgical free-for-all in the first place.

 

[weepixie71]

God “enjoys” the Mass??? Is this some new “traditional” belief???

no this is my personal belief. i prayed very hard to God to lead me to a mass that would please Him because my parish i belonged to was so bad that the bishop i believe closed it down for that reason. praying for female priests, exceptance of homosexuality, etc. i believe God led me to the Tridentine Mass.

yes… i am very very very confident that the Tridenetine Mass makes Him pleased. I base this on the knowledge of so many saints that came from this time period when the mass was used. their love and desire for the mass, and how often God moved people and performed miracles in this mass. also the fact that so many people hungered for the mass that almost 60yrs later Pope Benedict XVI officially brought it back. also, since they have brought back the Tridentine Mas seminarians are piling in to learn it. i havent been involved in the novus ordo for a long time but i hear they are struggling to get priests.

the novus ordo is just too new to tell. so far i just havent heard much greatness coming from it. im sure a lot of them are pleasing. i just dont see how a mass that strips away so many disciplines, that are put in place to show honor to God, making Him happier. and i would think singing protestant songs would be pleasing to God but singing Catholic songs that came from His Church would make Him happier.

im not saying the novus ordo doesnt please God. i really do not know. its just too early to tell. so i stick with what i know.

 

[marlo]

that’s what Pope Paul VI believed will happen

The Church did not give us the OF so that Protestants would return to the Church…

 

[I_Believe]

I personally agree, but I do know some people who just seem to block out what they hear - look at the number of immigrants to this country who couldn’t ever really get the hang of English (it was thought that they “refused” but I think it may have something to do with a genetic capability). I’m thinking of people who don’t even know English yet or those, like some priests I’ve heard that were in seminary before VII and said they could never learn Latin and didn’t like it - God loves them, too. How can they worship (apparently some laity had problems before VII, also and they wouldn’t have had to learn much Latin to speak)?

Well, the immigrants who can’t read English can get Latin/Spanish missals. And there is translator software as well.

As far as the priests learning Latin, they could if they wanted to. I can even read and pronounce 60% or more of the Latin prayers of the Mass with no training at all. And know what I’m saying. And remember, the priests have the missal to read from.

Many Latin words are fairly easy to guess what they mean. For example Virgo translates to Virgin. Spiritu = Spirit. Maria = Mary. in = in

Now, holding a conversation in Latin is tough of course, but learning enough to pray Mass isn’t rocket science.

 

[Aramis]

God “enjoys” the Mass??? Is this some new “traditional” belief???

Essentially, yes.

Many feel the TLM was a gift from God; this has be believed by some since before Vatican I… but it is not wrong to say God enjoys the mass, either, for all true worship pleases God. Some few take it to the heretical conclusion that the TLM is the only valid liturgy, and thus the only one pleasing to God.