Why not just combine the extra ordinary and Novus Ordo Mass

[brotherhrolf]

In case y’all are forgetting, there was a hybrid EF/OF mass via the 1965 Missal which no one used in our rush to get to the NO. It was not a pretty sight.

EWTN has the right idea though. Those Peruvian priests sure say a reverent NO in Latin. The key to both EF and OF is not language but reverence - that is where our attention needs to be.

 

[malphono]

In case y’all are forgetting, there was a hybrid EF/OF mass via the 1965 Missal which no one used in our rush to get to the NO. It was not a pretty sight.

The “interim Missal of 1965” wasn’t exactly a hybrid EF/OF: it was the EF with some amended rubrics. It addressed a few of what I will call “rubrical oddities” in the EF but was otherwise essentially the same, save for the abbreviated communion formula and a few other minor things. It allowed (but did not require) certain things in the vernacular, but the Canon was retained in Latin. Some say that it reflected the will of the Council. Whether yes or no to that, taken as a whole, I recall that it was quite nice. A sight better than what followed in Advent of 1969, that’s for sure.

But, as I’ve said so very often, unfortunately it lasted about 5 minutes before the "Spirit of Vatican II ravaged it into nothingness. And yes, that was far from a pretty sight. I still cringe at the thought of it.

 

[brigid12]

In case y’all are forgetting, there was a hybrid EF/OF mass via the 1965 Missal which no one used in our rush to get to the NO. It was not a pretty sight.

EWTN has the right idea though. Those Peruvian priests sure say a reverent NO in Latin. The key to both EF and OF is not language but reverence - that is where our attention needs to be.

 

[ababbidg]

I am somewhat new to Catholicism and I am not very familiar with the difference between EF and OF masses. Can someone explain it to me, or send me a link to somewhere that explains it. Please and thank you.

 

[Cat]

Hi Brigid, I understand what you are saying, but really, how many times does one have to hear Dominus vobiscum to learn it means “the Lord be with you” ?

We only need learn a handful of Latin phrases, and a couple of Greek phrases. The rest is right there in english next to the Latin in the missal.

Latin won’t make one lose Faith. But the vernacular can sure confuse us. Look at “Pro multis” Pro multis= for many. But it’s a perfect example of what Cardinal McIntyre feared.
For years, we have heard the incorrect translation, “for all”. This is going to be fixed soon, but, priests still say "for all ".

No, no. NO! I’m sorry, I’ve heard Latin phrases thousands of times in various classical works, and the translation is right there in the music and we sing them over and over and over…and for some reason, I STILL can’t remember what they mean! Misere–means nothing to me. Misery? And terms like Dies Irae–“dead something? dead irises?”

I’m not being facetious here. It just doesn’t make sense. Of course, no puzzles make sense to me. I can’t do Wheel of Fortune. The puzzle can look like this: “GOD BL_SS AM_ERICA” and I STILL wouldn’t be able to complete it. I don’t watch that show because I feel so stupid.

Obviously I can’t fix anything that’s broken. Others look and see the problem. I look and see that the thing doesn’t work and that’s all I can tell you.

It took me forever to realize that Agnus dei means Lamb of God, and it still makes no sense. What does “Agnus” have in common with “lamb” anyway?! Agnus is a woman’s name or a breed of cows! In German, “lamb” is “Lamm.” Now that makes sense!

There’s a Latin phrase over the door of one of the parishes where I play and I still haven’t figured it out after five years! Where is Dan Brown when I need him?!

Latin is the ancestor of the Romance languages, and I have the same hard time with Spanish and Italian–they just don’t make sense to me.

German–that’s a different story. Makes perfect sense, and it seem more similiar to English. (e.g. Lamb = Lamm, God = Gott, etc.)

I_Believe, I think that some of us are descended from the Visigoths and perhaps we’re just a little duller in the head when it comes to languages! (My family is of German and Irish descent.) Maybe all of you who love Latin are descended from the Romans and still have the love of the Romance language deep in your souls.

Just remember, the Visigoths conquered the Romans!

 

[shuzo1189]

No, no. NO! I’m sorry, I’ve heard Latin phrases thousands of times in various classical works, and the translation is right there in the music and we sing them over and over and over…and for some reason, I STILL can’t remember what they mean! Misere–means nothing to me. Misery? And terms like Dies Irae–“dead something? dead irises?”

I’m not being facetious here. It just doesn’t make sense. Of course, no puzzles make sense to me. I can’t do Wheel of Fortune. The puzzle can look like this: “GOD BL_SS AM_ERICA” and I STILL wouldn’t be able to complete it. I don’t watch that show because I feel so stupid.

Obviously I can’t fix anything that’s broken. Others look and see the problem. I look and see that the thing doesn’t work and that’s all I can tell you.

It took me forever to realize that Agnus dei means Lamb of God, and it still makes no sense. What does “Agnus” have in common with “lamb” anyway?! Agnus is a woman’s name or a breed of cows! In German, “lamb” is “Lamm.” Now that makes sense!

There’s a Latin phrase over the door of one of the parishes where I play and I still haven’t figured it out after five years! Where is Dan Brown when I need him?!

Latin is the ancestor of the Romance languages, and I have the same hard time with Spanish and Italian–they just don’t make sense to me.

German–that’s a different story. Makes perfect sense, and it seem more similiar to English. (e.g. Lamb = Lamm, God = Gott, etc.)

I_Believe, I think that some of us are descended from the Visigoths and perhaps we’re just a little duller in the head when it comes to languages! (My family is of German and Irish descent.) Maybe all of you who love Latin are descended from the Romans and still have the love of the Romance language deep in your souls.

Just remember, the Visigoths conquered the Romans!

Miserere means Mercy, but in the context of the Psalm and the attitude of the Penitent Misery might not be that far off from what he is feeling

And while the Visigoth’s sacked Rome, the Church “conquered” the Visigoths, the Franks and the rest of those plucky Saxons.

Also German should make more sense to English Speakers then a romance language due to the common Saxon heritage. But i think we all know a bit of Latin, like for example Rigor Mortis, Crematorium, terra incognita. The list is rather extensive (geocities.com/gene_moutoux/Derivlist.htm)

 

[rfpapcun]

If the legitimation of the Traditional Mass raises questions like this, then Summorum Pontificum was a bad thing.

Modern people are always trying to re-invent the wheel. But you don’t invent liturgy – that is the problem with the Novus Ordo – so stop suggesting that there be a tweaking of the Traditional Mass. If you want to tweak something, tweak the NO. Leave our Mass be.

 

[Cat]

I don’t have a lot of time (a dinner appointment), but I just want to make a quick few comments about the idea that Protestants are more likely to be attracted to a Latin Mass.

To begin with, I’m a convert to Catholicism from the evangelical Protestant churches. I grew up Conference Baptist, and the last church I sojourned in was an Evangelical Free Church in America. I was an evangelical of evangelicals–I virtually lived in and for the church. There were very few evenings or days that I did not spend at least a few hours at my church doing some kind of ministry work.

As for whether the Latin Mass will attract Protestants, it depends on the Protestant.

It’s possible that Lutherans and Anglicans (Episcopalians) would be attracted to the traditional Catholic Mass. I tend to think not, though, because Lutherans who love tradition love LUTHERAN tradition.

I serve on a board with Lutherans in our city (we put Handel’s Messiah on every year), and many of them are elderly and love the old Lutheran traditions. But…these people also have a deep prejudice against Catholicism. Notice that I didn’t say “against Catholics.” I am convinced that old Lutherans are the salt of the earth–they are the kindest people in the world and love everyone, including Catholics. But they despise Catholicism and consider it of the devil! I know these people, and I speak the truth. They are highly unlikely to set foot in a Catholic church other than for a funeral. As for Latin–no way! Lutherans praise Martin Luther for bringing them the Bible in the language of the people! So it’s not Catholic tradition that they long for, It’s their own LUTHERAN traditions that they miss and long for.

As for the evangelical Protestants, which make up the huge majority of Protestants in the U.S. today, I would say with certainty, NO! they will NOT be attracted to Catholicism by the Latin Mass.

A few will–there is a movement in evangelical Protestantism today called “alternative worship,” and these people are seeking spirituality through use of ancient worship techniques, mainly candles, lectio divina, chant, and silence.

These “alternatives” are criticized sharply by many of the “mainstream” evangelical leaders and pastors, who teach that Christians should NOT be seeking “experiences” and titillating their emotions with “Catholic” practices!

Most evangelical Protestants believe very strongly in FACT followed by FAITH followed by optional FEELINGS. Evangelicals are attracted to knowledge and learning and good solid Biblical teaching.

You all know that most evangelical Protestants willingly sit through sermons that last at least a half-hour–and most of them will start to suspect that the pastor has fallen into sin if he preaches for only a half-hour! Evangelical Protestants expect at least 45 minutes of preaching, and prefer an hour!

They actually thrive on long, sit-down conferences and seminars featuring teachers and lecturers and evangelists.

In my opinion as an ex-evangelical Protestant, what attracts evangelicals to the Catholic Church is rock solid teaching, delivered expertly by teachers like Father Corapi, Father Pacua (sorry about the spelling), Dr. Scott Hahn, Michael Cumbie, Tim Staples, Rosalind Moss, David Currie, etc.

This is what attracted us to the Church, and also our daughter. This is what our father-in-law is attracted to–he loves listening to Father Corapi.

You offer good, solid, Bible-based teaching, and you will attract evangelicals. But if you offer it in a foreign language, they will not be interested. After all, what good is teaching if you can’t understand it? You can object to that statement if you like, but I’m only trying to get across to you how an evangelical Protestant thinks, and he/she does NOT think like a traditional Catholic.

However, I do believe that the charismatic/Pentecostal Protestants will be attracted to Catholicism by the Latin Mass. They are used to hearing the Word of God in a tongue other than their own. They are used to use of the “body” in worship. They routinely fall to their knees. They pray constantly throughout their worship service. Much of their music is quite similiar to chant, especially the “spiritual singing” that occurs during ecstatic worship. And more than any other Christians, the Pentecostals not only believe in miracles, they expect them. So to them, the notion that Christ is Present in a piece of bread is not a strange idea at all, but makes perfect sense. And Pentecostals thrive on “experiential worship” and love to worship God with all their senses.

My husband grew up in the Assemblies of God, and he will testify that it was not difficult for him to accept Catholicism once he began studying it. And interestingly, his mother, who is very “charismatic,” has become convinced of the reality of the “Communion of the Saints” through her own prayers–I believe she has probably seen or heard the saints during her own prayer time!

OTOH, the Pentecostal churches probably teach some of the most anti-Catholic rhetoric of all the Protestant churches. (That statement is a generalization and may not be true of all Pentecostal churches.)

So like I said, it depends on which flavor of Protestant you’re talking about. I honestly think, though, that in most cases, Protestants will NOT be attracted to Catholicism through a Latin Mass. They want to hear the facts.

 

[ProVobis]

This writer puts it nicely:

One other mention I will make here is that there is literally no argument for Mass in the vernacular. Latin is universal, it is easily understood and is the base language from which many languages were derived. If I am travelling in another country and they are saying Mass in their local language I am out of touch. If they are using Latin, I am in touch. Also having to focus on what is going on and following the Mass in your missal you begin to get a much deeper understanding and appreciation for what is occurring before you. Not to mention that the wording used at Mass when verbalized in the vernacular loses some of its impact through familiarity. It happens when we become too “familiar”. **The Latin makes a person work harder at prayer and when assisting at Mass. **The N.O. and use of vernacular allows a soul to become slouchy and dare I say slothful.

franciscanconservatives.blogspot.com/2009/05/it-is-time-to-progress-back-to-latin.html

 

[Sr_Sally]

If the legitimation of the Traditional Mass raises questions like this, then Summorum Pontificum was a bad thing.

Modern people are always trying to re-invent the wheel. But you don’t invent liturgy – that is the problem with the Novus Ordo – so stop suggesting that there be a tweaking of the Traditional Mass. If you want to tweak something, tweak the NO. Leave our Mass be.

Your Mass? Since when? Someone else said the same thing earlier in the thread --that it was “my” Mass. No, the Mass doesn’t belong to any individual or even group–the Mass, all Masses, any form of the Mass, belongs to the Church.

Don’t start dividing things and claiming parts of the church to be “mine” or “theirs”. That way lies very grevious sin.

 

[rfpapcun]

Your Mass? Since when? Someone else said the same thing earlier in the thread --that it was “my” Mass. No, the Mass doesn’t belong to any individual or even group–the Mass, all Masses, any form of the Mass, belongs to the Church.

Don’t start dividing things and claiming parts of the church to be “mine” or “theirs”. That way lies very grevious sin.

The “our” Mass wasn’t meant literally, but since you obviously are so easily offended, I will change it to: Don’t mess with the Traditional Mass. Better?