Why not Orthodoxy?

[Hesychios]

JimG:

You see, the Eastern Church would agree with you; …

But the West has always taken the position that, since God is not self-contradictory, this applies to even the Trinity. And so there is nothing wrong with applying philosophy and metaphysics to try to understand what we can, while admittedly not encompassing the infinity of God.

The West has always been more venturesome in theological speculation, however instead of making things clearer it often makes everything much more confusing.

Almost without fail, Roman Catholics to not understand the filioque the first time they encounter it. It is probably the only part of Niceo-Constantinopolitan Creed (as used in the West) that has the curious distinction of clouding theology rather than clarifying it.

Because of the myth commonly perpetuated that Rome does not make mistakes, it is contrary to the Wests’ nature to ever admit the church had erred in adopting it. Therefore we have the continous futile attempts to defend the filioque, even though it doesn’t say what Roman Catholics usually insist it means and they refuse to adjust the wording to make it match the claimed meaning. The whole filioque episode reveals more holes in Romes claims than even this if we give it a little thought.

The sadly odd truth about all this is that if the filioque were ever dropped by the west, the average pewperson would not even care.

+T+
Michael

 

[Mickey]

Hesychios:

The whole filioque episode reveals more holes in Romes claims than even this if we give it a little thought.

Is this an insult to the West? :ehh:

 

[Mickey]

Palamite:

Hint; it didn’t involve the Pope throwing thunder-bolts down from Vatican Hill, with everyone simply standing in awe that he singularly saved the day.

Hello Iambic!

Sadly, you may now have to endure the Orthodox lurkers descending on this thread with exaggerated visuals of popes throwing thunderbolts. :whacky:

 

[JimG]

Well, I’ve always kind of liked the filioque myself. But if it were dropped from the Creed, could that lead to reunification with the Orthodox Churches?

 

[Mickey]

Regarding the Filioque:

The East will usually point to these verses:

John 14:16

And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever,

John 14:26

But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

The West will usually point to this verse:

---

John 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

---

**East and West will point to this verse:

---

---

John 15:26
But when the Counselor comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness to me;

**

 

[Mickey]

JimG:

Well, I’ve always kind of liked the filioque myself. But if it were dropped from the Creed, could that lead to reunification with the Orthodox Churches?

There are many other issues.

 

[Hesychios]

Mickey:

Is this an insult to the West? :ehh:

No, I am not referring to the Latin Sui Iuris particular church here, I should think you would be aware of that. I am referring to claims made by some to exaggerate the power of the bishop of Rome.

BTW, I had no part in the ‘troll’ exchange, and I wouldn’t have, before I realized what was going on it was over and you shook the dust off of your feet. I am sorry that people we so indelicate as to offend you like that. You already know what I think and why, we have interacted a long time now.

If Eastern subjects come up out here and I notice them, I might post a thing or two, I hope you don’t mind.

+T+
Michael

 

[Mickey]

Hesychios:

No, I am not referring to the Latin Sui Iuris particular church here, I should think you would be aware of that. I am referring to claims made by some to exaggerate the power of the bishop of Rome.

Sorry. I misunderstood.

Hesychios:

BTW, I had no part in the ‘troll’ exchange, and I wouldn’t have, before I realized what was going on it was over and you shook the dust off of your feet. I am sorry that people we so indelicate as to offend you like that. You already know what I think and why, we have interacted a long time now…

Thank you Michael. The charity level gets so low over there sometimes. Perhaps I get overly sensitive, but it’s just not very Christian-like at times. The polemics get me sick sometimes (on both sides). I’ll probably not come back for quite some time.

Hesychios:

If Eastern subjects come up out here and I notice them, I might post a thing or two, I hope you don’t mind…

Not at all. You have been a wonderful exception to the constant bickering on the Eastern forum. I always enjoy conversing with you. Also, with forgiveness vespers approaching on Sunday, I would like to ask your forgiveness for any offense I have ever caused you. Peace to you my friend.
img511.imageshack.us/img511/7180/3barcross4xh.gif

 

[Hesychios]

JimG:

Well, I’ve always kind of liked the filioque myself. But if it were dropped from the Creed, could that lead to reunification with the Orthodox Churches?

As Mickey has stated there are other issues as well, but I think that every obstacle we can eliminate improves the chances of reconciliation.

One thing I mention (too much probably) is that we must really examine what we mean by unity. If you say you are in favor of Apostolic unity and I agree, does that mean we both have a common understanding of what that means in reality?

To Holy Orthodoxy, unity means precisely being in agreement in theology, it doesn’t have anything to to with a central administration. This might not be what you assume when you think of unity.

+T+
Michael

 

[Hesychios]

Mickey:

Also, with forgiveness vespers approaching on Sunday, I would like to ask your forgiveness for any offense I have ever caused you. Peace to you my friend.
img511.imageshack.us/img511/7180/3barcross4xh.gif

My friend, I ask your forgiveness of my own offences, and I am the worst of sinners.

God Bless you,
Michael

 

[JSmitty2005]

Mickey:

There are many other issues.

What exactly is there? I thought it was just the papacy. I’m not asking for a big long essay on it or anything, but more like just a bulleted list, please.

 

[Mickey]

JSmitty2005:

What exactly is there? I thought it was just the papacy. I’m not asking for a big long essay on it or anything, but more like just a bulleted list, please.

Filioque
Papal infallibility/primacy
Immaculate conception/original sin
Purgatory
Existence of the Eastern Catholic Churches

These are the biggies.

 

[mercygate]

God love ya, Iambic. I would not try to deter anyone who feels genuinely called to Orthodoxy. The Orthodox have Apostolic succession, genuine sacraments, spectacular liturgy, soul-stirring sacred music, staggering art, and great food. Not to mention our own Father Ambrose, who is a walking witness to the spirit of Orthodoxy. What more could you possibly ask?

But they do not have Peter. If you are coming into a church with apostolic succession from a Christian body that does not, and you exclude Peter from your house of bishops – what are you THINKING?

Anyway, that’s what it boiled down to for me, and my husband is GREEK, for Pete’s sake (how apt).

I highly admire the thoroughness and care with which you are approaching this matter.

 

[jimmy]

Because of its unique place among the Christian churches, the church of Rome in the person of its bishop was soon tempted to assume powers, prerogatives and privileges among the churches beyond those belonging to its ministry to preside among them in love.

The problem with statements like this is that this authority was assumed from the first couple centuries. You can see in the writings of the earliest popes that they thought they had this authority. Yet, as the Eastern Orthodox would say, the Christians of the time considered the Church of Rome to be the truely orthodox church that all churches should submit to.

 

[Mickey]

mercygate:

But they do not have Peter. If you are coming into a church with apostolic succession from a Christian body that does not, and you exclude Peter from your house of bishops – what are you THINKING?

This is it in a nutshell for me also. Although I was born into Catholicism, I could never envision abandoning the Barque of Peter.

 

[Hesychios]

Mickey:

This is it in a nutshell for me also. Although I was born into Catholicism, I could never envision abandoning the Barque of Peter.

I used to say exactly this, so I understand where you are coming from. In fact I was something of a Latin Traditionalist once and I have no regrets whatsoever about my Roman Catholic past.

I still love my Roman Catholic and Byzantine Catholic brothers and sisters and I want them to build up the church. There is much left to do in this culture of ours, more than enough work for all of us even if we pull together, with many generations to follow each needing conversion in turn. The best thing to do now is cheer on each others efforts and pray for each other.

+T+
Michael

 

[JimG]

Mickey:

Filioque
Papal infallibility/primacy
Immaculate conception/original sin
Purgatory
Existence of the Eastern Catholic Churches

These are the biggies.

Reading this list makes me think that possibly the most difficult issue to overcome might be the relationship between the Eastern Catholic Churches and the Orthodox Churches, in the event of Orthodox and Western Church reconciliation. There would be two parallel magesterium’s to be reconciled. Not that it couldn’t be done; but that would be a sticky issue, I believe.

 

[JSmitty2005]

JimG:

Reading this list makes me think that possibly the most difficult issue to overcome might be the relationship between the Eastern Catholic Churches and the Orthodox Churches, in the event of Orthodox and Western Church reconciliation. There would be two parallel magesterium’s to be reconciled. Not that it couldn’t be done; but that would be a sticky issue, I believe.

I don’t understand, can’t the Orthodox Churches just unite with the corresponding Eastern Catholic Rites? I was thinking that their existence would facilitate a reconciliation. (mind you, I know nothing about Eastern Orthodoxy and I’m just now venturing East )

 

[The_Iambic_Pen]

Well, I wouldn’t say I’m drawn to the Orthodox Church per se, but in my search for the one true Church, I must acknowledge that there was an earlier split than the Reformation. As such, I want to make sure I give both sides a fair look. Personal preference or my own culture are not the basis for my choice, but rather a desire for the truth (and, either way, it appears there is a great deal more of that in both Churches than in Protestantism…). This split is a little more complicated than the Reformation, because while the Reformation was definitely a breakaway from an existing Church, the Great Schism was more of a split in two. As this seems to be the case, perhaps both sides have reasonable claims.

The Catholic claims about “on this Rock,” and Peter’s authority and all that do have me more inclined toward the Catholic view, as well as the more universal nature of the Church. However, the Orthodox view appeals to my remaining Protestantism, which sometimes fears the papacy may have grown beyond where it should have over the years. I also wonder why the Orthodox don’t believe in the following (borrowed from Mickey’s list):

Papal infallibility/primacy
Immaculate conception/original sin
Purgatory

if these concepts were really taught in the early years of the Church, as Catholics claim.

Thanks for all the information! I think I’ll go ahead and post something similiar in the Eastern Christianity forum to get the Orthodox viewpoint.

God bless!

 

[JSmitty2005]

The Iambic Pen:

However, the Orthodox view appeals to my remaining Protestantism, which sometimes fears the papacy may have grown beyond where it should have over the years.

I think that this is fairly common. One of my friends said something about both Protestants and Orthodox being guilty of “Caesaropapism,” but I didn’t understand exactly what he was talking about. Also, this looks applicable to your concerns:

catholic.com/thisrock/1995/9504fea1.asp