Why not remove the filioque?

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And the idea (one of the lines I remember being used when I was taught) that the Holy Spirit is the personfication of the love between the Father and the Son? Valid or flawed depiction of the procession of the Spirit?
 
I assume that that’s the Athanasian Creed in image form. At least, the Shield of the Trinity (the triangular diagram on the right) is.
I don’t know what the source of the image is, Patrick, but I do not see the bottom right as problematic. The center image could be misleading with respect to the filioque vs single pricipal source teachings.
 
I don’t know what the source of the image is, Patrick, but I do not see the bottom right as problematic. The center image could be misleading with respect to the filioque vs single pricipal source teachings.
There might be some basis for it in the Athanasian Creed:

Pater a nullo est factus: nec creatus, nec genitus. Filius a Patre solo est: non factus, nec creatus, sed genitus. Spiritus Sanctus a Patre et Filio: non factus, nec creatus, nec genitus, sed procedens. Unus ergo Pater, non tres Patres: unus Filius, non tres Filii: unus Spiritus Sanctus, non tres Spiritus Sancti. Et in hac Trinitate nihil prius aut posterius, nihil maius aut minus: Sed totae tres personae coaeternae sibi sunt et coaequales. Ita, ut per omnia, sicut iam supra dictum est, et unitas in Trinitate, et Trinitas in unitate veneranda sit. Qui vult ergo salvus esse, ita de Trinitate sentiat.

The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.
 
Ok, that would agree with the image, but, pardon my ignorance, is the Athanasian Creed a valid Catholic Creed? In what historical context was this creed authored and professed, because obviously it isn’t one that we use in the RCC in the US.

I notice the Latin says et Filio rather than filioque. What is the distinction, because I’m pretty sure there is one?

And how does procedit differ from procedens or does it?
 
Ok, that would agree with the image, but, pardon my ignorance, is the Athanasian Creed a valid Catholic Creed? In what historical context was this creed authored and professed, because obviously it isn’t one that we use in the RCC in the US.

I notice the Latin says et Filio rather than filioque. What is the distinction, because I’m pretty sure there is one?

And how does procedit differ from procedens or does it?
When I took latin, the difference was explained in that the choice of which to used was based on how it sounded, how it effected the cadence of the sentence, etc. Similar to the difference between Ergo and Igitur. Both mean therefore but Igitur is never used at the start of a sentence. But… my latin was learned in the 70’s I may have forgotten something.

Traditionally the Athanasian Creed is recited on Trinity Sunday. But that has fallen out of favor of late.
 
Is this consistent with the Catholic teaching regarding the filioque? I think it is, but I want someone who is more knowledgeable to say so before I tell him so.
I think we (Eastern Orthodox) don’t have a problem with it if understood as the procession of the Holy Spirit from a point of origin as His unique relationship to the Father, much like how only the Son is begotten as His unique relationship to the Father, since the Father is the source of the other two Persons.
it is okay to say that the Spirit proceeds through the Son temporally into Creation as a part of His Divine Action, but that is not His eternal source.
 
Ok, that would agree with the image, but, pardon my ignorance, is the Athanasian Creed a valid Catholic Creed? In what historical context was this creed authored and professed, because obviously it isn’t one that we use in the RCC in the US.
To elaborate on what Evan had said, the Athanasian Creed is, as per the name, a creed attributed to St. Athanasius of Alexandria but in reality is a Western creation (it is not known in the East) probably dating from the 5th-6th century AD. At least Christian writers from Gaul (modern France) like St. Caesarius of Arles or Vincent of Lerins evoke the language of this Creed - which is very Augustinian BTW - which may suggest that this Creed originated from there.

The Creed was once used more often in the Roman Liturgy - it was used at the (now-suppressed) liturgical hour of Prime, on Sundays after Epiphany and Pentecost, except when a Double feast or day within an octave occurred, and on Trinity Sunday (in place of the Nicene Creed). By 1960 it was only used during Trinity Sunday, and not at all in the Ordinary Form.
I notice the Latin says et Filio rather than filioque. What is the distinction, because I’m pretty sure there is one?
Both mean ‘and [the] Son’ (et and -que). BTW, if you notice, the Mozarabic Credimus I quoted earlier also has et Filio rather than Filioque.
And how does procedit differ from procedens or does it?
Procedit is the third person singular present active indicative of procedo. Procedens is the present participle.
 
So can you clarify for me, The Holy Ghost from whom it proceeds?
Depends on what term you use that translates as “proceeds.” If you use the original Greek (ekporeusai), the Holy Spirit ONLY proceeds FROM the Father, because the word denotes the Source or First Cause. If you use the Latin (procedit), which does not necessarily denote Source or First Cause, one can say the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son.

There is ample patristic evidence both East and West that when procedit or its equivalent Greek proienai is used, then one can say “proceeds from the Father AND the Son.” There is also patristic evidence that when ekporeusai is used, one can say “proceeds from the Father THROUGH the Son.”

But it is heterodox to say “proceeds from the Father and the Son” if by “proceeds” one understands it to be ekporeusai. That is why Eastern and Oriental Churches should remove “and the Son” from their Creeds, though it is wholly orthodox and patristic in the Latin Creed.

I hope that helps.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
But the individual Churches of the West did not add filioque to the universal Creed, only to their local expression of it. So what’s the problem? The use of filioque in local Latin Creeds was instituted by local Councils of the West progressively.
  1. If a Church professes a Creed other than the Creed of the other Churches, then they do not believe in the same thing
  2. This argument fails in the fact that it is decreed by Ecumenical Council that only another Ecumenical Council can make changes to the Creed. So a local council doing so is in violation to something they have agreed that they will not do.
Let the Westerns keep it, if they so choose. Let the Westerns remove it, if they so choose. It’s the doctrine behind it that matters.
Sure, and let them remain in schism. They agreed to the decision not to alter the Creed except by agreement of all. Then they turn their backs on that agreement. Not a good sign.
 
  1. If a Church professes a Creed other than the Creed of the other Churches, then they do not believe in the same thing
OK, so when the Apostles Creed is recited, that means Orthodox do not believe in that.:rolleyes: And the Armenian Orthodox obviously believe something different than the rest of the Churches.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
  1. This argument fails in the fact that it is decreed by Ecumenical Council that only another Ecumenical Council can make changes to the Creed. So a local council doing so is in violation to something they have agreed that they will not do.
This argument fails miserably because when the Council of Constantinople changed the Creed of Nicea, which it claimed could not be changed, it was not an Ecumenical Council, and did not even claim to be so at that time.:eek: So here we have a local council changing the universal Creed of the Church. Either the Fathers of Constantinople are hypocrites, OR the proper understanding of their prescription is not that the terminology of the Creed cannot be changed, but rather the DOCTRINAL FAITH that it was expressing could not be changed.
Sure, and let them remain in schism. They agreed to the decision not to alter the Creed except by agreement of all.
The Latins did not agree to anything in 381. The Easterns unilaterally changed the universal Creed in a LOCAL Council. What gave them the right? Why are certain EO perpetuating schism on the basis of an action by Latins that they themselves did? Who can defend this hypocrisy?
Then they turn their backs on that agreement. Not a good sign.
The Easterns changed the universal Creed in a LOCAL Council, and then say that the Latins are wrong? Can a bigger log in the eye exist?:tsktsk:

Blessings,
Marduk
 
OK, so when the Apostles Creed is recited, that means Orthodox do not believe in that.:rolleyes: And the Armenian Orthodox obviously believe something different than the rest of the Churches.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
People who play semantics are ones who are desperate to win debates and are clearly losing it 👍

Obviously I was talking about the Nicene Creed. The Apostles Creed (or Baptismal Creed) is the Protos of the Nicene Creed. Obviously what I meant about “a different creed” is an alteration of a Creed. The same way in Scripture that a False Prophet is one who preaches “a different Jesus”, St. Paul wasn’t talking about another person who also has the name Jesus. But rather those who make false and heretical claims about the same Jesus they are preaching.
This argument fails miserably because when the Council of Constantinople changed the Creed of Nicea, which it claimed could not be changed, it was not an Ecumenical Council, and did not even claim to be so at that time.:eek: So here we have a local council changing the universal Creed of the Church. Either the Fathers of Constantinople are hypocrites, OR the proper understanding of their prescription is not that the terminology of the Creed cannot be changed, but rather the DOCTRINAL FAITH that it was expressing could not be changed.
My argument is solid, yours fails completely. Because it is only the Third Ecumenical Council that declared the Creed unalterable. So that only takes effect for the entire Church at the time the Council becomes Ecumenical, which is the final additions/changes to the Creed as well as the Canon that forbids the alteration of the Creed.

Also, no council in the First Millennium starts as Ecumenical. A council only becomes Ecumenical upon acceptance by all canonical Bishops of the Church. Which means that yes, a council of any type can alter the Creed, but it cannot be used until it has the assent of the entire Church which will make the council Ecumenical. The West started using the Creed without the assent of the East. In fact, the East protested, and the West even declared the Filioque to be heretical, only later to reinstate it again without the assent of any of the Eastern Churches.
The Latins did not agree to anything in 381. The Easterns unilaterally changed the universal Creed in a LOCAL Council. What gave them the right? Why are certain EO perpetuating schism on the basis of an action by Latins that they themselves did? Who can defend this hypocrisy?
Of course they agreed to it. Why then would they recognize the council as Ecumenical? It cannot be Ecumenical without their acceptance.
The Easterns changed the universal Creed in a LOCAL Council, and then say that the Latins are wrong? Can a bigger log in the eye exist?:tsktsk:
Again, Ecumenical, meaning it is accepted BY ALL. The actual attendance of a council or the beginnings of a council has no bearing here. If the decrees of the council is accepted by other bishops, then it is Ecumenical and thus not anymore local.
 
Even regardless of the tension between the East and West on the matter, is there proper instruction on filioque in the catechism classes of the Latin Catholic Church? Do the Latin Catholics generally understand that the phrase in the Creed, according to the Latin Tradition, refers to the ousia of the Spirit, and not His Hypostasis? Is the Official Clarification on filioque promulgated by HH JP2 of thrice-blessed memory being made a subject of study (even in summary form) in Latin Catholic RCIA classes? I should hope so. For that matter, I think it should be made a subject of study in Eastern and Oriental Catholic Catechetical classes, as well.

Blessings,
Marduk
The first sentence is a great point, Brother Marduk, but also a two-edged sword. As a Catholic for almost 20 years, I know exactly what idea used to pop into my head when I recited the Filioque clause as part of the Creed on Sunday mass; a vague notion of the Father and the Son together “producing” the Spirit and sending him to us. Which is not far from the teaching of Anselm and Aquinas on the issue. Of course the distinction between the eternal (immanent) procession and economic procession (sending) of the Spirit was unknown to me. I am fairly confident that 90% of Catholics at a given Sunday mass have about the same idea, if they think of it at all.

It is a two-edged sword to my mind, however, because, being Orthodox, I almost think it is better to have a vague idea in relative ingorance, than to actually knowlingly embrace it.

And I’m sorry but having read quite a bit on the issue, it is news to me tha the Latin tradition, when it comes to the Filioque issue, separates in its mind the ousia of the Spirit from the Hypostasis (Person) of the Spirit. That sounds almost worse than the Filioque clause itself.
 
Directed to no one in particular, but a short history of the Creed in the West. Quoting from Dom Fernand Cabrol’s The Mass of the Western Rites:

The Spanish were the first in the West to introduce the symbol of Nicea-Constantinople into the Mass. In the East the custom already existed, and in 568 Justinus the Younger made it a law. In 597 the Third Council of Toledo issued an edict: “Ut prius quam Dominica dicatur oratio, voce clara a populo” (symbolum Constantinopolitanum) “decantetur, quo fides vera,” etc. This is a fresh example of the eagerness shown by the Spanish Bishops to follow the customs of Constantinople. From Spain the usage spread into Gaul; but Rome held out long, and only yielded in the eleventh century. The true place of this symbol is in the rite of Baptism and it is not an essential element of the Mass. The Gallican churches sang it after the Gospel, at the end of the Mass of the catechumens, and this too is the place given to it by Rome. Like the Greeks and Orientals, the Spanish, by putting it at the end of the Canon, before the “Pater,” rather disturbed the general equilibrium of this part of the Mass; and, moreover, diminished accordingly the importance of the “Pater.”

The minutes of the Third Council of Toledo of 589 quote the Creeds of Nicaea and Constantinople a couple of times. While the Constantinopolitan Symbol already contains some ‘added’ clauses imported from the Nicaean version (bolded below), both instances did not yet contain the controversial clause. Here is the first:

INCIPIT FIDES A SANCTO NICENO CONCILIO.

Credimus in unum Deum, Patrem omnipotentem, omnium visibilium et invisibilium conditorem.
Et in unum Dominum Iesum, Filium Dei, de Patre natum unigenitum, hoc est de substantia Patris. Deum ex Deo, lumen ex lumine, Deum verum ex Deo vero, natum non factum, homousion Patri, hoc est eiusdem cum Patre substantiae. Per quem omnia facta sunt, quae in caelo et quae in terra. Qui propter nos et propter nostram salutem descendit, et incarnatus est, homo factus, passus est, et resurrexit tertia die, et ascendit in caelos, inde venturus est iudicare vivos et mortuos.
Et in Spiritum Sanctum, eos autem qui dicunt: Erat quando non erat, et antequam nasceretur non erat, et quia ex nullis exsistentibus factus est, aut ex alia substantia vel subsistentia dicunt esse, aut convertibilem vel mutabilem [o] Filium Dei anathematizat catholica et apostolica ecclesia.

ITEM SANCTA FIDES QUAM EXPOSUERUNT CL PATRES IN CONCILIO CONSTANTINOPOLITANO.

Credimus in unum Deum, Patrem omnipotentem, factorem caeli et terrae, visibilium omnium et invisibilium Conditorem.
Et in unum Dominum Iesum Christum, Filium Dei unigenitum, ex Patre natum ante omnia saecula. Deum ex Deo, lumen ex lumine, Deum verum, ex Deo vero. Natum non factum, homousion Patri, hoc est, eiusdem cum Patre substantiae. Per quem omnia facta sunt, quae in caelis et quae in terris sunt. Qui propter nostram salutem descendit, et incarnatus est de Spiritu Sancto, et Maria virgine. Homo factus, passus est sub Pontio Pilato, sepultus, tertia die resurrexit. Ascendit in caelos, sedet ad dexteram Patris. Iterum venturus in gloria iudicare vivos et mortuos: cuius regni non erit finis.
Et Spiritum Sanctum, Dominum et Vivificantem. Ex Patre procedentem, cum Patre et Filio adorandum et glorificandum: qui locutus est per prophetas. Unam, catholicam, atque apostolicam ecclesiam. Confitemur unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. Expectamus resurrectionem mortuorum, vitam futuri saeculi. Amen.

The genesis of the clause can be seen throughout the minutes of that same council:

Id est ut confiteamur esse Patrem, qui genuerit ex sua substantia Filium sibi coaequalem et coaeternum, non tamen ut ipse idem sit natus et genitor (natus ingenitus), sed persona alius sit Pater, qui genuit, alius sit Filius, qui fuerit generatus, unius tamen uterque substantiae divinitate subsistat: Pater, ex quo sit Filius, ipse vero ex nullo sit alio, Filius, qui debeat (habeat) Patrem, sed sine initio et sine diminutione in ea quia Patri coaequalis et coaeternus est, divinitate subsistat. Spiritus aeque Sanctus confitendus a nobis et praedicandus est a Patre et a Filio procedere et cum Patre et Filio unius esse substantiae; tertiam vero in Trinitate Spiritus Sancti esse personam, qui tamen communem habeat cum Patre et Filio divinitatis essentiam. Haec enim sancta Trinitas unus est Deus, Pater et Filius et Spiritus Sanctus, cuius bonitate, omnis (hominis) licet bona sit condita creatura (natura), per assumptam tamen a Filio humani habitus formam a damnata progenie reformamur ad beatitudinem pristinam.

Quicumque Spiritum Sanctum non credit aut non crediderit a Patre et Filio procedere, eumque non dixerit coaeternum esse Patri et Filio et coessentialem, anathema sit.

(Whoever does not believe in the Holy Spirit or should not believe Him to proceed from the Father and the Son, and declare that He is not coeternal and coessential with the Father and the Son, let him be anathema.)

But this is also hardly new: a century before the third Synod, a different confession of faith found in the First Council of Toledo in 400 already has the following statement (under the form Filioque):

Spiritum quoque esse Paraclitum, qui nec Pater sit ipse, nec Filius, sed a Patre Filioque procedens. Est ergo ingenitus Pater, genitus Filius, non genitus Paraclitus, sed a Patre Filioque procedens.

(The Spirit is also the Paraclete, who is Himself neither the Father nor the Son but proceeding from the Father and the Son. Therefore the Father is unbegotten, the Son is begotten, the Paraclete is not begotten but proceeding from the Father and the Son.)
 
This argument fails miserably because when the Council of Constantinople changed the Creed of Nicea, which it claimed could not be changed, it was not an Ecumenical Council, and did not even claim to be so at that time.:eek: So here we have a local council changing the universal Creed of the Church. Either the Fathers of Constantinople are hypocrites, OR the proper understanding of their prescription is not that the terminology of the Creed cannot be changed, but rather the DOCTRINAL FAITH that it was expressing could not be changed.

The Latins did not agree to anything in 381. The Easterns unilaterally changed the universal Creed in a LOCAL Council. What gave them the right? Why are certain EO perpetuating schism on the basis of an action by Latins that they themselves did? Who can defend this hypocrisy?

The Easterns changed the universal Creed in a LOCAL Council, and then say that the Latins are wrong? Can a bigger log in the eye exist?:tsktsk:

Blessings,
Marduk
The entire Church, as you know, later affirmed the First Council of Constantinople, well prior to the insertion of the filioque. Furthermore, it was the Third Ecumenical Council that established the rule against altering the Creed (also well prior to the insertion of the filioque). This decision of the Council of Ephesus is the basis of Eastern Orthodox opposition to the unilateral changing of the Creed in the West. There is no hypocrisy on this issue on the part of the Orthodox, because when the bishops at the First Council of Constantinople altered the Creed of the First Ecumenical Council, they did so prior to any prohibition against doing so, unlike the bishops in Spain, who altered the universal Creed. It seems to me that your argument is the one that fails miserably.
 
Dear brother Ryan,

Actually, the Council of Constantinople specifically asserted “the Creed of the 318 Fathers assembed at Nice in Bithynia shall not be set aside, but shall remain firm.” So my statements stand. Obviously the Fathers of Constantinople, despite their assertion, felt free to change the terminology, because back then, it was understood that it was the doctrinal faith, not the terminology, that mattered.

Further, while it is true that the 3rd Ecumenical Council (even while Constantinople was not yet considered Ecumenical) in 431 also asserted that the Creed of Nicea should not be changed. we see that a Synod of Antioch in 441 used a different wording of the Creed, closer to the Constantinopolitan Creed than the Nicene Creed. Again, the Fathers back then obviously understood the prescription of the 3rd Ecum to not change the Creed to refer not to the terminology, but rather the doctrinal Faith. So, again, my statements stand.

Pope St. Cyril in fact had tension with the Fathers of Ephesus because he himself used terminology in his apologetics that were not confirmed by the Council of Nice. St. Cyril rightly defended himself and affirmed that it is the entire Tradition, not just the Creeds, that should inform the mind of the Christian.

So the Latins, first in 447, also professed a Creed with slightly different terminology in one of their local Councils, with the same mindset as the Easterns that what mattered was not so much the terminology, but the doctrinal Faith contained in the Creed.

In 451, Chalcedon finally confirmed the Ecumenical value of the Council of Constantinople, and did so affirming the decree of Constantinople that the Creed of Nicea should stand firm. They could do this, even while the Creed of Constantinople was terminologically different from the Creed of Nicea, because, again, to these early Fathers, it was not so much the terminology,but the doctrinal Faith that mattered.

This is the patristic mindset handed down and preserved in the Catholic Church. It is unfortunately not the mindset of many Orthodox today with regards to this issue.

Blessings,
Marduk
The entire Church, as you know, later affirmed the First Council of Constantinople, well prior to the insertion of the filioque. Furthermore, it was the Third Ecumenical Council that established the rule against altering the Creed (also well prior to the insertion of the filioque). This decision of the Council of Ephesus is the basis of Eastern Orthodox opposition to the unilateral changing of the Creed in the West. There is no hypocrisy on this issue on the part of the Orthodox, because when the bishops at the First Council of Constantinople altered the Creed of the First Ecumenical Council, they did so prior to any prohibition against doing so, unlike the bishops in Spain, who altered the universal Creed. It seems to me that your argument is the one that fails miserably.
 
And I’m sorry but having read quite a bit on the issue, it is news to me tha the Latin tradition, when it comes to the Filioque issue, separates in its mind the ousia of the Spirit from the Hypostasis (Person) of the Spirit. That sounds almost worse than the Filioque clause itself.
There is no separation. It’s just that the Son is not the origin, and the Fathers never speak of the Hypostasis being transmitted. In a earlier thread, an EO proponent expressed himself by saying that the Hypostasis and the ousia are transmitted. But he admitted that it was just his wording that was off. So even he admitted (and I’m sure he is representative of EO) that the Hypostasis and Essence are distinguished in the hypostatic origination because while Hypostasis and Essence (and Energy, for that matter) all originate from the Father, only the Essence and Energy are said to be transmitted.

So I’m not comprehending what you find so surprising (and don’t worry, I’m a little more thick-skinned than some of our EO members :))…

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Obviously what I meant about “a different creed” is an alteration of a Creed.
Yup, the as the yet LOCAL Council of Constantinople altered the terminology of the Creed, but not the Faith. Just like LOCAL Councils of the the Latins altered the termonology of the Creed, but not the Faith. So many Easterns today need to stop using a hypocritical argument against the Latins.
My argument is solid, yours fails completely. Because it is only the Third Ecumenical Council that declared the Creed unalterable. So that only takes effect for the entire Church at the time the Council becomes Ecumenical, which is the final additions/changes to the Creed as well as the Canon that forbids the alteration of the Creed.
Read Church history and my response to brother Ryan.
Also, no council in the First Millennium starts as Ecumenical. A council only becomes Ecumenical upon acceptance by all canonical Bishops of the Church. Which means that yes, a council of any type can alter the Creed, but it cannot be used until it has the assent of the entire Church which will make the council Ecumenical. The West started using the Creed without the assent of the East. In fact, the East protested, and the West even declared the Filioque to be heretical, only later to reinstate it again without the assent of any of the Eastern Churches.
And the East started using an altered Creed without the assent of the West. So those Easterns today who claim the West did something wrong are using a hypocritical argument.
Of course they agreed to it. Why then would they recognize the council as Ecumenical? It cannot be Ecumenical without their acceptance.
Read Church history. It was not Ecumenical in 381.
Again, Ecumenical, meaning it is accepted BY ALL. The actual attendance of a council or the beginnings of a council has no bearing here.
Ahh. An admittance that the earlier crack at the Pope only sending legates was full of holes.👍
If the decrees of the council is accepted by other bishops, then it is Ecumenical and thus not anymore local.
So what gave the Easterns the right to use an altered Creed when Constantinople was not yet Ecumenical?:tsktsk:

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Dear brother Ryan,

Actually, the Council of Constantinople specifically asserted “the Creed of the 318 Fathers assembed at Nice in Bithynia shall not be set aside, but shall remain firm.” So my statements stand. Obviously the Fathers of Constantinople, despite their assertion, felt free to change the terminology, because back then, it was understood that it was the doctrinal faith, not the terminology, that mattered.

Further, while it is true that the 3rd Ecumenical Council (even while Constantinople was not yet considered Ecumenical) in 431 also asserted that the Creed of Nicea should not be changed. we see that a Synod of Antioch in 441 used a different woriding of the Creed, closer to the Constantinopolitan Creed than the Nicene Creed. Again, the Fathers back then obviously understood the prescription of the 3rd Ecum to not change the Creed to refer not to the terminology, but rather the doctrinal Faith. So, again, my statements statnd.

This is the patristic mindset handed down and preserved in the Catholic Church. It is not the mindset of many EO today.

Blessings,
Marduk
No, your statement that the Orthodox are being hypocritical does not stand. You wrote “Obviously the Fathers of Constantinople, despite their assertion, felt free to change the terminology, because back then, it was understood that it was the doctrinal faith, not the terminology, that mattered.” I agree with you on this. However, I’m willing to grant that the Orthodox object to the filioque because they view it not as a matter of mere terminology, but as a matter of faith. Now I know that you keep insisting that the filioque is merely a a statement of the consubstantiality of the Holy Spirit with the Father and the Son. However, as you know, the Orthodox view not in that way, but that it refers to the origin of the Holy Spirit. Whether or not the Orthodox are correct (which you insist they are not, rather dogmatically, as if your understanding of the whole issue is infallible) is a different question than that of whether they sincerely hold that it is a matter of altering the faith, rather than a matter of terminology. Why do you refuse to see that this is a sincere matter of difference over the content of the faith? Why can’t you interpret the actions of the Orthodox on this issue in the most charitable light possible? Why do you insist on labeling the Orthodox as hypocrites simply because they have a different interpretation of this matter than yours, (BTW, an interpretation that is not even shared by all Catholics)?
 
Dear brothe Ryan,

I am sure you have read all my posts and debates on this matter. The addition of the text is a wholly different issue than the theological matter of the case. We are talking about the mere addition of the text here. There are those Orthodox who insist, on the pretense that the addition of the text was wholly unjustified, that unity CANNOT be achieved until the Latins remove filioque. It is to these particular Orthodox that I claim are using hypocritical argumentation. Please be aware that I have consistently not made any generalizations about the Orthodox as a whole.

Blessings,
Marduk
No, your statement that the Orthodox are being hypocritical does not stand. You wrote “Obviously the Fathers of Constantinople, despite their assertion, felt free to change the terminology, because back then, it was understood that it was the doctrinal faith, not the terminology, that mattered.” I agree with you on this. However, I’m willing to grant that the Orthodox object to the filioque because they view it not as a matter of mere terminology, but as a matter of faith. Now I know that you keep insisting that the filioque is merely a a statement of the consubstantiality of the Holy Spirit with the Father and the Son. However, as you know, the Orthodox view not in that way, but that it refers to the origin of the Holy Spirit. Whether or not the Orthodox are correct (which you insist they are not, rather dogmatically, as if your understanding of the whole issue is infallible) is a different question than that of whether they sincerely hold that it is a matter of altering the faith, rather than a matter of terminology. Why do you refuse to see that this is a sincere matter of difference over the content of the faith? Why can’t you interpret the actions of the Orthodox on this issue in the most charitable light possible? Why do you insist on labeling the Orthodox as hypocrites simply because they have a different interpretation of this matter than yours, (BTW, an interpretation that is not even shared by all Catholics)?
 
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