Why only Jesus?

[CherryBomb]

Well I’m glad to see you are listen at least a little, I was starting to wonder if you were just a troll!

I think we’ve all displayed faith! And patience!

 

[Parrot]

Okay lets begin again…

I DO believe in God.

I believe anyone who believes in God (whether they call Him Buddha, Allah, God, or whatever) should be admitted into what Christians call Heaven.

I am not convinced that Jesus is a God. I want to be convinced (I suppose) because I want to join the Catholic Church (I think). I like it better than other churches.

I was taught that the Catholic religion is a Christian Religion.

The Catholic Church is based on Christianity and Christianity says anyone who (has heard of but) does not believe in Jesus is bound for Hell.

What do I have wrong?

 

[Parrot]

"THE CATHOLIC CHURCH DOES NOT TEACH THAT NON-CHRISTIANS WILL GO TO HELL FOR BEING NON-CHRISTIANS" Cherrybomb

C’mon, Cherry. A non-Christian is someone who rejects Christ and that person is bound for hell no? If not, why couldn’t I join the Catholic Church if I was not convinced Jesus is a God.

Are you implying that I could reject Jesus, but profess faith to God and be allowed into the Church and into Heaven?

I will cut you some slack as you display a bit of intelligence… So on the other possible view, you may be saying that The Catholic Church doesn’t teach these people will go to Hell, they just assure those who DO believe in Jesus and are therefore Christians are assured of not going to Hell?

 

[dmelosi]

Why is this your belief and why do you keep repeating this?

The truthfulness of your posts have to be questioned because you keep ignoring and repeating something that is simply not true. But even more, many many people here tell you it is not true, yet you keep repeating it.

I question your motives here because of that.

The Catholic Church is based on Christianity and Christianity says anyone who (has heard of but) does not believe in Jesus is bound for Hell.
What do I have wrong?

 

[dmelosi]

Parrot, you seem to be twisting things as well for some reason. No one on here says or even implies that you can reject Jesus and join the Catholic Church.

The Church teaches that only God’s knows a person’s heart and He alone judges.

"THE CATHOLIC CHURCH DOES NOT TEACH THAT NON-CHRISTIANS WILL GO TO HELL FOR BEING NON-CHRISTIANS" Cherrybomb

C’mon, Cherry. A non-Christian is someone who rejects Christ and that person is bound for hell no? If not, why couldn’t I join the Catholic Church if I was not convinced Jesus is a God.

Are you implying that I could reject Jesus, but profess faith to God and be allowed into the Church and into Heaven?

I will cut you some slack as you display a bit of intelligence… So on the other possible view, you may be saying that The Catholic Church doesn’t teach these people will go to Hell, they just assure those who DO believe in Jesus and are therefore Christians are assured of not going to Hell?

 

[SpaceGirl]

**"

I will cut you some slack as you display a bit of intelligence… So on the other possible view, you may be saying that The Catholic Church doesn’t teach these people will go to Hell, they just assure those who DO believe in Jesus and are therefore Christians are assured of not** going to Hell?

You are very disrespectful! I am amazed anyone reply-ed to you at all!

 

[dmelosi]

The Church does not teach nor does anyone say that in this thread.

You said earlier you were going to look at the differences between Catholic and protestants. Have you done so?

You said earlier that you were familiar with the Church…where do you get your information about the Church?

So on the other possible view, you may be saying that The Catholic Church doesn’t teach these people will go to Hell, they just assure those who DO believe in Jesus and are therefore Christians are assured of not going to Hell?

 

[Parrot]

Parrot, if I could make a copy of my soul so that you could look inside and see my faith, I would certainly send you one. It is all about faith yet you demand proof. I find your demeanor insulting and will no longer respond to you within this thread. Either you demand proof or you accept faith. Can’t have it both ways.:tsktsk: Nice way to introduce yourself to the board.

I have not demanded any proof, only asked questions. Step back and just take a different perspective for a second and you may see more clearly.

Please don’t attempt to try intimidation with the finger shaking and admonitions about a fine way to introduce myself. This by no means my first post even if it is my first thread.

And yes - you ought to be able to show your faith IMHO without an xray of your soul. Frankly, I find yours an some others’ demeanor insulting as well. One cannot debate an issue by beating the other over the head with rhetoric and intimidation. You might fit better in the Baptist Church. They are great at those tactics to win over new recruits.

 

[dmelosi]

C.S. Lewis was a good Christian apologist. He has a very good book “Mere Christianity” that makes a very good logical case that Jesus is God. It is not one of those fast hold attn reads, but makes the case with common sense. For what you say you are looking for, this might be your best bet.

It seems to me that you are just here to test people though.

I have not demanded any proof, only asked questions. Step back and just take a different perspective for a second and you may see more clearly.

Please don’t attempt to try intimidation with the finger shaking and admonitions about a fine way to introduce myself. This by no means my first post even if it is my first thread.

And yes - you ought to be able to show your faith IMHO without an xray of your soul. Frankly, I find yours an some others’ demeanor insulting as well. One cannot debate an issue by beating the other over the head with rhetoric and intimidation. You might fit better in the Baptist Church. They are great at those tactics to win over new recruits.

 

[Parrot]

You said earlier that you were familiar with the Church…where do you get your information about the Church?

Everyone in the most of the world knows the Catholic religion is based on belief in Jesus as a God and it HAS been stated and confirmed in this thread as well.

Why even have this as a thread topic if it were not so?

Disrespectful? I don’t think so. I have asked questions, but I don’t consider it disrespectful to disagree on points of discussion. You believe in the Holy Trinity as do the Baptists and I do not… entirely. It is really a pretty simple concept and simple question as I see it.

I really want to be convinced to join the Catholic Church here. Why is that met with hostility of sorts? Surely every person who seeks to join the Church is not already a convert? If I already were convinced of all the doctrines of the Catholic faith and had no questions about it, then there would be no need for the Catechism classes and one could join just as easily as joining the Scientologist or the Baptists?

Don’t you see? I am trying here to determine if I fit in the Church. I am trying to determine of you guys are any better than other churches I have attended. I admit I am confused, but I am seeking answers and opinions.

There is just this one point of contention and I am asking about it. Why Jesus? I don’t feel comfortable joining a church that rejects all who are non-believers in JESUSeven though believers in God.

Should I join the Jewish faith instead? My problem with them is that they treat their religion more as a race than a religion.

Just to let you know, I WILL eventually read ALL the documents related to Catechism but I first need to know is is worth my time to do so as I am not one to go on totally blind faith. If I were (and you as well) I might as well join the nearest church to my front door and completely disregard what they stood for or believed in.

One cannot make an intelligent decision without facts and at the moment, I want someone to tell me why they believe Jesus is a God. Just to give an idea where my mind is lingering… Why not replace Jesus with “The Holy Spirit?” According to Christian doctrine, it is the same thing. I could sooner believe that than Jesus I think. Jesus has bad marks in my mind because he WAS human and WAS executed like a criminal. The crucifix has no more significance that the same crosses that other criminals were executed on and no more real importance than the iron cross of German Nazis if you get right down to reality. There has to be more to convince me. I am not against ritual, but it has to have a basis. I don’t know how else to explain it, but I won’t be intimidated by anyone.

 

[Parrot]

C.S. Lewis was a good Christian apologist. He has a very good book “Mere Christianity” that makes a very good logical case that Jesus is God. It is not one of those fast hold attn reads, but makes the case with common sense. For what you say you are looking for, this might be your best bet.

It seems to me that you are just here to test people though.

Perhaps you feel I should just register at a seminary and have the complete doctrine down before attempting to join the Church?

It was not until yesterday I had even heard of an “apologist.” That raises another problem for me. As described in normal terms, an apologist is a person trained to make the point of validity of the religion. Seems to me that such a person could convince many people of any set of beliefs. Isn’t that basically what Hitler did?

Not calling the apologist Hitlers, just illuminating the idea there. I sooner believe the common person and their opinions.

 

[dmelosi]

I answered the way I did because you kept repeating about who gets to heaven.

I hope you understand the Church’s teaching better on this now.

I was born and raised Catholic. Early in my spiritual search I read C.S. Lewis book . I had many thoughts on how I thought the perfect God should be. Then when I read his book, I found many of what he said, were my thoughts. Then, I started studying the Catholic faith. As you look deeper into it, you will find that the Catholic faith makes so much sense.

Perhaps a thought…many think that the church is not keeping up with the times…the best way to look at it is that the times are not staying with the church, but going in so many directions, testing so many limits. The church defines what is good and bad. As you search, use that as a guide in your decision…compare what others consider “good” or “bad”.

One cannot make an intelligent decision without facts and at the moment, I want someone to tell me why they believe Jesus is a God. Just to give an idea where my mind is lingering… Why not replace Jesus with “The Holy Spirit?” According to Christian doctrine, it is the same thing. I could sooner believe that than Jesus I think. Jesus has bad marks in my mind because he WAS human and WAS executed like a criminal. The crucifix has no more significance that the same crosses that other criminals were executed on and no more real importance than the iron cross of German Nazis if you get right down to reality. There has to be more to convince me. I am not against ritual, but it has to have a basis. I don’t know how else to explain it, but I won’t be intimidated by anyone.

 

[carol_marie]

Why I believe in Jesus: Because I have studied enough of the Old Testament to know that many many things were fortold about the coming Messiah that were fufilled in Jesus - so this satisfies me intellectually.

Beyond that, I would say that I’ve prayed to Jesus many times and I’ve felt His presense - His existance - that was as real to me as my own children are real to me. I just know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus was who He said He was - God.

You’ve said that you think it’s not right that because you don’t believe in Jesus, you can’t be Catholic - or go to heaven. It’s already been said repeatedly that Catholics DO NOT believe that only Catholics - or even Christians for that matter go to heaven. We leave that up to God to decide and would never say that someone is going to burn in hell. Quit saying we do - it’s not true!

Do I think that being an obedient Catholic is the best path to lead me to Heaven? YES! God lovingly provided the sacrements (or tools?) to help us get to heaven - and all of those sacrements are found only in the Catholic Church.

Could you be Catholic without believing in Jesus? No - that is just dumb. Jesus is the CENTER of our Faith - we do not seperate Him from God - so for you to say you believe in God but Jesus is not good enough. Jesus is God. And besides, why would you want to be a religion where you didn’t believe what it professed.

However, it is my sincere hope that you will come to realize the truth about Jesus.

 

[dmelosi]

I posted another response before I saw this. Use the litmus test of what does the Church teach. Christ and His teachings represent as “Good” as you can get. Put that to the test with any issues today. Maybe as you search, post those specific questions that are gray area to you.

Perhaps you feel I should just register at a seminary and have the complete doctrine down before attempting to join the Church?

It was not until yesterday I had even heard of an “apologist.” That raises another problem for me. As described in normal terms, an apologist is a person trained to make the point of validy of the religion. Seems to me that such a person could convince many people of any set of beliefs. Isn’t that basically what Hitler did?

Not calling the apologist Hitlers, just illuminating the idea there. I sooner believe the common person and their opinions.

 

[Parrot]

We seem to be getting nowhere here. I thank you for your opinions.

Thank you for your help in making my decision. Obviously the Catholic Church is not a place I wish to be.

Moreover, this forum is not a place for enlightenment. I think I will go ask a priest instead. But wait! I am not allowed to speak to a priest if I am not Catholic. Darn. There goes my soul.

 

[carol_marie]

We seem to be getting nowhere here. I thank you for your opinions.

Thank you for your help in making my decision. Obviously the Catholic Church is not a place I wish to be.

Moreover, this forum is not a place for enlightenment. I think I will go ask a priest instead. But wait! I am not allowed to speak to a priest if I am not Catholic. Darn. There goes my soul.

Where did you get the crazy notion that only Catholics can talk to a Priest? Of course you could talk to a Priest - by all means, do that.

I’m sorry if you didn’t find the forums to your satisfaction - perhaps that GIANT chip on your shoulder prevented you from hearing a thing we said?

If you change your mind, you’ll know where to find us. You are welcome to post again.

 

[Parrot]

Its not the forums I found unsatisfactory, It is the Catholic Church I now find unsatisfactory.

I would be glad to speak to a priest but I seriously doubt any would speak to me. If you know one, give him/her my name, but it will have to be the AOL name as I am out of here.

I realize it is superfluous to ask for help here. but does anyone know how one deletes their profile and leaves this forum?

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Why does the Catholic Church (and any Christian religion) seem to relegate all persons who do not believe in Christ (as an actual part of God) to eternal damnation? Surely God would not really want all Jewish people and all Buddhists and all Muslims, etc to be excluded?

… I DO however doubt that Jesus is the only path to communication with God …

Jesus is God. So any communication and relationship with God necessarily involves communication with Jesus.

Jesus does indeed will that all be saved, every human being. He does not exclude the possibility of Muslims, Hindu, Buddhist, Jews, etc. in his salvation.

Nevertheless, those who obstinately refuse to communicate with Him, to have a relationship with Him, reject that which is true and just, and in so doing risk eternal damnation. To the extent that they voluntarily refuse communion with the Lord, they are culpable.

However, we believe Jesus is a very merciful and just Lord, and it is He that will judge souls according to their deeds. Nobody accidently or unjustly goes to hell, simply because they believes something erroneously yet believe it in “good faith.”

Furthermore, Christ not only wills the salvation of all, but he gives his grace to all such that they can indeed believe in Christ and attain eternal salvation.

The Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Lumen Gentium, states:

Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) … Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely ***seek God **and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19) (Lumen Gentium, 16)

[Footnotes:]
(18) Cfr. S. Thomas, Summa Theol. III, q. 8, a. 3, ad 1.
(19) Cfr. Epist. S.S.C.S. Officii ad Archiep. Boston.: Denz. 3869-72

This does not mean everyone necessarily goes to heaven no matter what they believe or do, as some seem to presume. Instead, the authentic sense of this passage is better understood by referring to the texts which are footnoted…

Footnote 18 explicitly cites the Summa Theologica of St. Thomas Aquinas, which states,

“Those who are unbaptized, though not actually in the Church, are in the Church potentially. And this potentiality is rooted in two things–first and principally, in the power of Christ, which is sufficient for the salvation of the whole human race; secondly, in free-will.” (Summa Theologica, III, 8, 3)

Thus, Jesus both wills and gives his grace such that all can be saved. But salvation requires consent of the will, co-operating with the grace given.

St. Thomas, in the same article of the Summa explains the various ways people are related to the Church:

We must therefore consider the members of the mystical body not only as they are in act, but as they are in potentiality. Nevertheless, some are in potentiality who will never be reduced to act, and some are reduced at some time to act…Christ is the Head of all men, but diversely. For, first and principally, He is the Head of such as are united to Him by glory; secondly, of those who are actually united to Him by charity; thirdly, of those who are actually united to Him by faith; fourthly, of those who are united to Him merely in potentiality, which is not yet reduced to act, yet will be reduced to act according to Divine predestination; fifthly, of those who are united to Him in potentiality, which will never be reduced to act; such are those men existing in the world, who are not predestined, who, however, on their departure from this world, wholly cease to be members of Christ.

continued…

 

[itsjustdave1988]

continued…

Footnote 19 is from the Letter of the Holy Office, approved and promulgated by Pius XII (August 8, 1949) (source):

… that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is necessary that ***at least he be united to her by desire and longing. ***

…*** this desire need not always be explici***t, as it is in catechumens; but when a person is involved in invincible ignorance God accepts also an implicit desire, so called because it is included in that good disposition of soul whereby a person wishes his will to be conformed to the will of God. … the Sovereign Pontiff clearly distinguishes between those who are actually incorporated into the Church as members, and those who are united to the Church only by desire. … those who do not belong to the body of the Catholic Church, he mentions those who “are related to the Mystical Body of the Redeemer by a certain unconscious yearning and desire,” and these he by no means excludes from eternal salvation… But it must not be thought that any kind of desire of entering the Church suffices that one may be saved. It is necessary that the desire by which one is related to the Church be animated by perfect charity. Nor can an implicit desire produce its effect, unless a person has supernatural faith…

 

[LilyM]

We seem to be getting nowhere here. I thank you for your opinions.

Thank you for your help in making my decision. Obviously the Catholic Church is not a place I wish to be.

Moreover, this forum is not a place for enlightenment. I think I will go ask a priest instead. But wait! I am not allowed to speak to a priest if I am not Catholic. Darn. There goes my soul.

Parrot, what drugs are you on? WHO has given you these crazy ideas that you can’t talk to a priest if you’re not Catholic or that the Church damns all non-Christians to hell? You’ve been shown quite clearly that the Church teaches the opposite, it damns no person to Hell.

You’ve been given links to documents which explain and discuss Catholic beliefs (and why should they be unnecessarily reproduced word-for-word here?)

You know if you want to find out about the faith, or any faith, or anything at all, at some point you are going to have to go to the source documents which relate to that subject! It’s called study - are you not familiar with the concept from schooldays?

As for why Jesus - well of course any person can claim to be God incarnate or the Messiah. Not everyone fulfils exactly prophecies written about them hundreds of years before their birth.

Not everyone has quite so many followers who are quite so ready to suffer and die for their beliefs, so convinced are they of them - some other religions prefer instead to kill others who don’t believe as they do.

And, in the end, not everyone who claims to be God is telling the truth. I could say that I’m 8 feet tall, male and African. Merely saying so wouldn’t make it true, or make me anything other than 5 1/2 feet, female and Australian.

But if so many people believe me that 2,000 years later they’re STILL willing to give up their own lives for those beliefs it’s at least a good argument that I’m likely to have been telling the truth.

God bless.