Why Organized Religion is a Problematic Way to Grow Closer to God.

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I’ll take your advise and discuss my opinions elsewhere. I thought that the non-Catholic section here was the appropriate section to discuss this. I’ve been told that Belief Net has a broader range of opinions there, I’ll be starting an account over there.

I didn’t realize that these type of discussions on this particular catagory were considered direct attacks by so many here.

God Bless you all, I sincerely hope that you truly find the door to the Kingdom on your chosen path.
If one wants the truth, one comes to the Catholic Church. If one is looking for something else, then go somewhere that the truth is more scarce. I actually feel sorry for this person. Apparently a giant log in the eye, where they really can’t see clearly. Is it reasonable to be somehow surprised that Catholics would be on a Catholic site, and actually love Christ and His Church? Interesting denial, on the obvious truths. While at the Catholic site, denigrate God’s Church and then can’t understand why Catholics who actually love God and His Church would defend His Church.

Of course when one goes to beliefnet, they don’t particularly cater to the truth, although one may bump into some here and there. They definitely have a broader range of opinion… it’s built for that. One can have Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Holistic Spirituality, Meditation, Bahai, Shinto, Taoism, Falung Gong, Reconstructionists, Pagan and Earth based…, amd amidst all this, they have sections on all types of Christianity as well where they include Mormonism and Jehovah’s Witnesses under Christianity. If one wants to be around people who will more likely be willing to denigrate the Catholic Church, and tell them that leaving the Catholic Church is good, then there are plenty who will mistakenly misguide in this manner. It’s a mistake to think one will find this acceptable on a Catholic Answers Forum.

I commend my fellow Catholics for supporting and protecting the Church. That someone is making a bad decision is sad, but ultimately their misuse of their God given free will.

It all depends on what one is looking for. I don’t think they’re serious about seeking the truth, rather playing out some real or imagined grievance instead of taking personal responsibility for one’s life. If they actually want the fullness of truth, they’ll have to come back to the Church.

May God please guide and heal this person. In Jesus’ Holy Name, we pray.
 
Christians, as wisdomseeker is, know this as an abbreviation for Sacred Scriptures.
Also heavily used to denote “sola scriptura” (scripture alone), as in those who have only the bible as the basis for their faith.

This is also not to be confused with Blessed Scripture, which I’ve had to call on a couple of posters… :ehh:
 
I’ll take your advise and discuss my opinions elsewhere. I thought that the non-Catholic section here was the appropriate section to discuss this. I’ve been told that Belief Net has a broader range of opinions there, I’ll be starting an account over there.

I didn’t realize that these type of discussions on this particular catagory were considered direct attacks by so many here.

God Bless you all, I sincerely hope that you truly find the door to the Kingdom on your chosen path.
As much as I hate to see anyone leave I agree that you would probally have much better luck elsewhere. I am sorry that things didnt go for you the way you seemed to have wanted. I can see you are very unhappy with the opinions you have gotten here. But In our defense you must realize that we take our faith seriously and it is the foundation of our lives. Especially in the Catholic faith no one is going to change it. We will follow it until once again Jesus Christ himself comes back and changes it. But myself im pretty impressed with how it went. Its so nice to see everyone standing up for the Catholic Faith. I dont know what you were really looking for here, but to talk about all the problems with our faith and think we were going to agree? You should not be surprised. We Love our Church and will do our best to defend it. I think you are getting confused what this site is about. Its more about questions about our faith, and the ways our church views things, To try to give people the best answers we can. To help them get closer to God not tell them how much better you are to leave him. We are not here to mislead them, and keep them on the wrong path. We are here to try to help and get them on the right path again. At least I am. God bless you and I pray you find peace.
 
Also heavily used to denote “sola scriptura” (scripture alone), as in those who have only the bible as the basis for their faith.

This is also not to be confused with Blessed Scripture, which I’ve had to call on a couple of posters… :ehh:
Yes, that can be SS as well, but we have to look at context. Context here is that this is a Catholic person who does not believe in Sola Scriptura, and who was not arguing a point that would make sense with him supporting Sola Scriptura. There may be other phrases that could fit with the initialism SS.

More importantly, the larger point is asking what kind of “Christian” would subtly link the Nazi’s with a statement favoring the Catholic Church and Christ? So in this case, whether accurately interpreting SS as Sacred Scriptures in this context, or even misinterpreting as Sola Scriptura, neither of these would be going down the road of somehow putting something as evil as Nazism in that sentence favorably discussing Christ and His Church in Sacred Scriptures.

Please read my post 149 for additional background on this.
Please read my post 149
 
Incense…ugh. My wife and I were married in a Catholic Church. It was like walking into a Bath & Body Works nightmare

😃
One of *my *problems with Catholicism, on a personal level, is that they hardly ever use incense. Mind you, my current Episcopal parish doesn’t either!

Yes, I know this is a frivolous issue:p

Edwin
 
I think my biggest reason for ceasing my involvement with the Catholic Church, and my reluctance to join any other, is that organized religion inevitably is a flawed system of spiritual progress.

Giving up the Eucharist is worth your leaving the Church? Wow.

People involved in churches and church organisations always succumb to the ordinary evils of bureaurocracy. They hold positions of power that is in their personal self interest to protect. They do this in usual ways, such as squelching their opposition, securing their power base, creating political alliances.

Such a whiner. When people leave the Church for so-called ‘greener’ fields, I always think of the reality that the Church is for sinners, not the self-righteous. The latter do not need the Church.

Of course, the Catholic Church, with it’s size and hierarchy, has one of the most strongly established traditions of political intrigue that permeates the culture of its institutions.

Urban legend. You believe this too? Wow.
 
Yes, thank you… the statement is based on the best kind of faith… faith in reality of Who Christ is and belief that He keeps His Word.

…making it clear using English translation with the Aramaic words referring to Peter and the rock of the Church… And I say to thee: That thou art Kepha; and upon this Kepha I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. I believe Christ that He established His Church upon the Kepha (rock) of Kepha (Peter), who is rock of the Church only because of Christ who is the ultimate Rock. Christ the King is able to do with His “Prime Minister” what no ordinary earthly king can do with theirs… keep them from teaching error in faith and morals. That the gates of hell will never prevail, tells us that from Christ’s promise, “we are fully assured that neither idolatry, heresy, nor any pernicious error whatsoever shall at any time prevail over the church of Christ”(D-R)… the Catholic Church with the rock of the Church at the helm. We don’t say this is the Church built by Peter or any of the Popes… It is the Church built by Christ, just as He said He would.
 
Today was my first Sunday missing Mass for something other than work obligations. I feel “at peace”.
Then you missed a beatiful opportunity to worship God with your fellow parishioners. The readings were some of my favorites. The first reading was

Reading 1
1 Kgs 19:9a, 11-13a

**At the mountain of God, Horeb,
Elijah came to a cave where he took shelter.
Then the LORD said to him,
“Go outside and stand on the mountain before the LORD;
the LORD will be passing by.”
A strong and heavy wind was rending the mountains
and crushing rocks before the LORD—
but the LORD was not in the wind. **
After the wind there was an earthquake—
but the LORD was not in the earthquake.
After the earthquake there was fire—
but the LORD was not in the fire.
After the fire there was a tiny whispering sound. When he heard this,
Elijah hid his face in his cloak
and went and stood at the entrance of the cave


Elija obeyed God.
I maintain that we can serve Christ effectively without the smothering bureaurocracy of the Roman Catholic Church.
Reading II
Rom 9:1-5

Brothers and sisters:
I speak the truth in Christ, I do not lie;*my conscience joins with the Holy Spirit in bearing me witness
that I have great sorrow and constant anguish in my heart.
For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ
for the sake of my own people,
my kindred according to the flesh.
They are Israelites;
theirs the adoption, the glory, the covenants,
the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises;
theirs the patriarchs, and from them,
according to the flesh, is the Christ,who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen. **

It seems that Paul sees the smothering covenants, law, woship as GIFTS from a loving God.

Gospel
Mt 14:22-33

During the fourth watch of the night,
he came toward them walking on the sea.
When the disciples saw him walking on the sea they were terrified.
“It is a ghost,” they said, and they cried out in fear.
At once Jesus spoke to them, “Take courage, it is I; do not be afraid.”
Peter said to him in reply,
“Lord, if it is you, command me to come to you on the water.”
He said, “Come.”
Peter got out of the boat and began to walk on the water toward Jesus.
But when he saw how strong the wind was he became frightened;
and, beginning to sink, he cried out, “Lord, save me!”
Immediately Jesus stretched out his hand and caught Peter,
and said to him, “O you of little faith, why did you doubt?” *
**

When Peter took his eyes off the Lord, he failed. Where is YOUR faith?
I assert that the structure of the Church often interferes with the original message of Jesus, of which one aspect was to simplify spiritual life away from the strangulating edicts and mandates of Judaism and the corruption of the Pharisees…
How would you even know the original message of Jesus without the Catholic Church, the Church that canonized the Holy writings, guarded, protected, and duplicated it in her monastaries? How would you even know the origanl message of Jesus had not the Church declared as heresy those who tried to change the teaching of Jesus even unto today?
I’ll take your advise and discuss my opinions elsewhere. I thought that the non-Catholic section here was the appropriate section to discuss this. I’ve been told that Belief Net has a broader range of opinions there, I’ll be starting an account over there.
I think you came here hoping to be talked back into the Church. Will you find Truth in Belief net, or just hear what YOU want to hear.
God Bless you all, I sincerely hope that you truly find the door to the Kingdom on your chosen path.
You have it backwards, the chosen path is the path God chose for US it us up to us to follow it.
 
One of *my *problems with Catholicism, on a personal level, is that they hardly ever use incense. Mind you, my current Episcopal parish doesn’t either!

Yes, I know this is a frivolous issue:p

Edwin
😃 mine too! 😃
 
I think my biggest reason for ceasing my involvement with the Catholic Church, and my reluctance to join any other, **is that organized religion inevitably is a flawed system of spiritual progress. **

People involved in churches and church organisations always succumb to the ordinary evils of bureaurocracy. They hold positions of power that is in their personal self interest to protect. They do this in usual ways, such as squelching their opposition, securing their power base, creating political alliances.

All religions form around a strong leader and wants to aspire to form a community that adheres to its founding ideals. They inevitably, though, succumb to the same failures and corruptions across the board, losing their founding ideals and becoming just another manmade bureaurocracy mainly interested in maintaining itsself, even at the expense of truly serving God.
Again, this is backwards. The flaws come from NOT obeying the Church. See below about a schimatic church in our diocese.

By Tim Townsend
ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH
08/10/2008

St. Louis — It was just before midnight on Christmas Eve 2005, and the Rev. Marek Bozek was the focus of 2,000 souls crammed in pews or standing on tiptoe in the aisles, straining to see him.

They came to St. Stanislaus Kostka church to be a part of Bozek’s first Mass as pastor. He had arrived in St. Louis from Springfield, Mo., thumbing his nose at the Roman Catholic hierarchy and riding to the rescue of fellow Polish countrymen deprived of the Eucharist for more than a year by their archbishop.

For many St. Stanislaus parishioners whose ancestors had built the church just north of downtown, Bozek became a hero.

***But more than two years later, Bozek has reshaped the church into a community that would be unrecognizable to those 19th-century founders. ***
His vision for a reformed Roman Catholic faith calls for supporting female ordination, allowing priests to get married and accepting gay relationships. Bozek’s stands have attracted hundreds of new St. Stanislaus parishioners who share the priest’s reform-minded vision.
But they have also divided the church, ***pitting newer members against traditional parishioners unhappy with how far the priest has gone in condemning the Roman Catholic church.

There have also been questions about the priest’s trappings. He has negotiated a 143 percent salary hike, moved into a $157,000 Washington Avenue loft and leased a 2008 BMW for $450 per month.

Some parishioners point to another sign that alarmed them: Bozek, while in Poland last year, bought a silver ring custom-made for a bishop there. When he returned, he showed the ring to his parish at a Sunday Mass and spoke about it from the pulpit.

Because it’s a bishop’s ring and he is only a priest, Bozek says, he has not worn it. But he won’t say he never will — he does not rule out the possibility of becoming the leader of what he calls an “underground Roman Catholic” movement.***The three parish leaders who recruited Bozek say they now regret it.

St. Stanislaus “is now home to anyone who has a gripe with the (Catholic) church,” said Stan Rozanksi, one of the men who vetted Bozek and a former board member. ***Bozek says the people who hired him knew about his vision for St. Stanislaus. He dismisses critics who accuse him of shifting his priorities as having “selective hearing.”

“I came because I saw injustice being done here,” he said. "There are red-button issues, and I’m daring enough to touch them. If you’re sexist or homophobic, you will passionately hate my vision."

Bozek was supposed to be St. Stanislaus’ savior. But for many longtime church members, it could be Archbishop Raymond Burke — the man they’ve been fighting for five years — who may save it.


After Burke was installed as the archbishop of St. Louis in 2004, he took up the cause of changing the structure of St. Stanislaus more seriously than any of his predecessors. That summer, the board members eliminated their pastor’s authority over church property and assets. Burke responded by removing the pastor, leaving the church without a spiritual leader.

A year later, board members approached Bozek, then a 30-year-old priest and Polish national working in the Springfield-Cape Girardeau diocese, to lead the church.

From 2004 to 2006, the image of a feisty Polish church standing up to the Roman Catholic hierarchy struck a chord. And St. Stanislaus gained a national reputation — the front page of the Wall Street Journal, a segment on CBS’s “Early Show.”

For many area Catholics, the church became a proud example of the laity standing up to church authorities — with red “St. Stan’s Lives!” and “Save St. Stan’s!” stickers adorning car bumpers.

Burke’s declarations of nine St. Stanislaus-related excommunications only enhanced the image of the church’s leaders as countercultural Catholic heroes, and of St. Stanislaus as an oasis for disenchanted Catholics.

Bozek seized on that momentum and used the church’s new-found fame to double its membership, to what he says is now 500 families.

GOING TOO FAR?

***As the membership has grown, so has tension among some parishioners, as Bozek continues to take stands that clash with Roman Catholic teaching.

He has welcomed gays and divorced people into the church. In November 2006, he invited an openly gay pastor — the leader of a Catholic community separate from the Vatican — to celebrate Mass.******
This past November, Bozek took part in a ceremony in which two women were ordained as priests of an organization called Roman Catholic Womenpriests. ******Bozek has also taken repeated shots at the Roman Catholic hierarchy. In a sermon earlier this year, Bozek set out his vision for the Roman Catholic church, while denouncing its leaders.

“The Roman Catholic family can be described today as dysfunctional, toxic or abusive,” Bozek said. “For decades we have allowed the men who claim to be our shepherds to abuse us.”***
Richard Bach, who heads a group called the Concerned Parishioners of St. Stanislaus, said a large number of older members — about 100 families — had gradually come to oppose Bozek’s leadership and the new members.

“They’re concerned about the path of the church and where he’s leading them,” Bach said. “A lot of the old parishioners don’t consider the new ones parishioners at all.”

Grzegorz Koltuniak, a longtime parishioner, calls Bozek’s tenure at St. Stanislaus "a disaster."
“Before Bozek, we were all together,” he said. “Our fight was about property, but never about religion. The people who have come here since then are here for different reasons. … Where are they taking this church?”

Marybeth McBryan, one of the church’s newer members, said she came to St. Stanislaus because it was more inclusive and accepting than her previous parish.

“There’s a group of parishioners who have been there a long time and who don’t like change,” McBryan said. “They are not very fond of us who are not Polish.”

Timothy Kyle, who joined the church about six months ago, says longtime members want Bozek “to break the rules important to them, but not stand up for the ideals and beliefs he has himself.”

"If you hire someone who doesn’t follow along the dotted line," Kyle said, "you can’t expect him to follow it when you want him to."
FOOTING THE BILL

They also feel he remains critical to St. Stanislaus’ future. So when Bozek had to return to Poland last year to reapply for a work visa, the board paid an immigration lawyer $80,000 to help with the process, according to some church leaders. Bozek said it was more like $55,000.***

But longtime parishioners were further put off when Bozek negotiated a new contract with the board.

Bozek’s contract was up last December, and he had several demands.

***He wanted to move out of the rectory. He wanted a big salary bump. And he wanted a new car. He got what he wanted.

He moved into a downtown loft; he started driving a new BMW; and his salary jumped to $56,000 from $24,000.***
Bozek said he was paying for the car himself. And, he said, the $31,400 down payment for the loft came from his savings.

***Bozek said he needed to move out because it was “exhausting mentally” for him to live in a busy rectory, where he rarely had time to himself.

“It was not good for my physical health,” he said. “My blood pressure was up.”***
People also need to understand that “ministers are normal people,” he said. “We need food to eat, cars to drive, places to live.”
 
continued

A SPLIT BOARD

In the meantime, Bozek awaits word on whether he will be laicized — or defrocked — by Pope Benedict XVI. Burke began the process of laicizing Bozek after the priest took part in the Roman Catholic Womenpriests event.

The Vatican has not yet ruled on the matter. But Bozek has already been planning for a St. Stanislaus whose ties to the Vatican could be severed.
**
In May, he said he’d been in talks with Married Priests Now! representatives. The organization is led by Archbishop Emmanuel Milingo, an excommunicated Zambian archbishop who is married. The group, funded by the Rev. Sun Myung Moon, promotes a married priesthood.**
News of the Milingo talks angered some parishioners, and Bozek backed away. He now insists that the church will remain Roman Catholic.

But if the archdiocese refuses to make peace, he said, St. Stanislaus could join with other “independent” churches — inside and outside St. Louis — to form an “underground Roman Catholic church.”

“No one has an ambition to create a new denomination,” Bozek said. “**My vision is to be Roman Catholic and wait for the regime to collapse.” **
For example, he has been in discussions with Rose Marie Hudson and Elsie McGrath, the two women ordained as Roman Catholic Womenpriest clerics. They are co-pastors of a congregation of about 25 people called the Therese of Divine Peace Inclusive Community in St. Louis.

Bozek also has spoken with the Rev. Frank Krebs — pastor of the 90-member Sts. Clare & Francis in Webster Groves, which is separate from the Vatican — about joining Bozek’s “underground” network.

Bozek said he had heard from groups in California, Florida and Wisconsin who wanted to join “an alternative Roman Catholic” organization.

“I tell them to organize and let me know,” he said.

Bozek said that he had been offered a bishop’s position in two independent Catholic denominations, but that he wasn’t interested in other groups. He wants to continue leading St. Stanislaus — and perhaps a movement with St. Stanislaus at its center.

stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/religion/story/EE776647C0B2A65A862574A000173209?OpenDocument

Bozek was expelled from Seminary in Poland.
 
Today was my first Sunday missing Mass for something other than work obligations. I feel “at peace”.

I would challange those who think they are ‘defending’ the Catholic Church by posting angry, insulting responses to philosophical challanges to their points of view.
First, the format of this thread is “sola scriptura” in that it is typed words alone. There is no human voice, no tonal inflection, none of the nuanced conversation that occurs even in a phone call. Some posts may be more questioning that angry, yet the naked words can easily be construed thusly. Notice how secondary posts are often required to clear such matters up?

Rather than asking the laity, I would suffest you approach either a priest who has been a good confessor, or your Bishop and inquire of them regarding this topic, as they have likely dealt personally with the exact emotions you are experiencing. Missing mass deliberately is a matter of canon law, and needs to be addressed by competent authority (even if you have been lead not to particularly care about it).

Now, since this feeling has overcome you and altered your opinion of, and behavior towards the church, I humbly suggest that you consider this to be a spiritual attack. If you believe at all in God, and you clearly do, you need also believe in the evil one. He labors constantly to lead souls away from God, and any desire to leave the Lord’s presence has its source in him. Such a loss of desire to serve the Lord within the church He established carries all of the hallmarks of the evil one’s work.

Please, if you can, consider employing a spiritual warfare prayer against evil. On earth, we live in the princedom of the evil one. We struggle constantly to withstand his brutal attacks. He desires the destruction of your soul, and will employ all manner of devious tactics to accomplish that. However, he is a coward and will flee from you if prayer is employed against him. He cannot withstand that.

I am praying for you. May God, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit guide and strengthen you throughout your life. Amen!
 
More importantly, the larger point is asking what kind of “Christian” would subtly link the Nazi’s with a statement favoring the Catholic Church and Christ?
With the appearance of this concept, the evil one tips his hand. This is a spiritual attack, and needs to be addressed in proper manner.
 
Both my parents left their respective churches. My dad was a Catholic and my mom a Baptist. In addition to other problems, they had the same objections to ‘organised religion’ as you have stated. My parents did not really observe any religion. I don’t think I ever saw them pray. They had a basic idea of right and wrong and tried to be ‘good people’. But, if any teaching made them leave their ‘comfort zone’, they rejected it.

“The Church says I need to Confess. That makes me uncomfortable, so I reject it.”

“The church says go to service on Sunday. Well, I’d rather sleep in and please myself all day. I don’t like being preached at, anyway.”

The whole thing just boiled down to them not wanting to put in any effort to being a Christian. They didn’t pray. They didn’t read Scripture. They didn’t do anything to practice their faith. If they did just after leaving their respective churches, they didn’t continue it. The more time away from their churches, the less and less they practiced their faith.

I was raised not going to church and taught that organised religion is corrupt. Well, guess what? It doesn’t matter to my faith if Bishop A has a mistress or embezzles the dioceses funds to house her in a mansion. It doesn’t matter to my faith if someone takes over the ministry in which I used to serve and excludes me (which has happened to me twice). I have had problems with some priests and some people in power in the parish. The Church is much bigger than these individuals and my faith is not dependent upon their actions. Instead of feeling hard done by and taking offence or picking up my marbles and leaving, I humbled myself and asked what God was trying to teach me with this. Maybe He doesn’t want me to serve in that capacity, maybe He has something else in mind for me.

I needed to pull my head in, spend more time in prayer, and try to discern the new path God had in mind for me. I offered my pain and sorrow at the loss of my ministries to the Lord in reparation for sin. Lord, Your Will, not mine, be done.

The thing I did NOT need to do is leave my Church. I lived outside the Church for half my life, without any spiritual guidance, without any faith, having been taught none. I will not go back to that empty existence. Only in the Church can I receive my Lord in the Eucharist.

“Saul Saul, why are you persecuting Me?” The Church is Christ. I will not leave my Christ.

I pray that you reconsider and don’t leave Him, either.
:signofcross:
 
With the appearance of this concept, the evil one tips his hand. This is a spiritual attack, and needs to be addressed in proper manner.
I saw it as such right away. This is why it had to be addressed, and not just allowed to permeate as though it were acceptable. There are some things posted here that are more casual in nature, and some that are not.
 
Just so you know… but, I had said I didn’t misinterpret her statement such that it would mean she was claiming that Jesus Saves You Knuckleheads.
I thought you were claiming it DOESN’T mean that.
 
I thought you were claiming it DOESN’T mean that.
In a post explaining something of mine that she had misinterpreted, I was teasing that I had not misinterpreted JSYK to mean that she was admonishing myself and/or others that “Jesus Saves You Knuckleheads.” I was interpreting it correctly at “Just So You Know.”
 
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