Why Organized Religion is a Problematic Way to Grow Closer to God.

[MDK]

Today was my first Sunday missing Mass for something other than work obligations. I feel “at peace”.

I would challange those who think they are ‘defending’ the Catholic Church by posting angry, insulting responses to philosophical challanges to their points of view.

You are responsible for yourself. I don’t believe that God has asked you to leave His house. Is it possible that Satan feels more at peace now as well?

Like I’ve asked before, how is the truth insulting? If the shoe fits you, I recommend getting different shoes. Defending the Church includes not accepting lies about the Church.

Just as a thief will criticize those who they steal from in an attempt to justify their actions… one leaving the Church may do the same.

Philosophical challenges are fun to discuss. When one combines that with denigration of the Church, then one has made a mistake.

 

[at_peace_1]

Also, Jesus opposed the arrogence of the religious leaders of the day, who had become so self satisfied with their own importance that they swaggered and pompously made political deals with civil authorities in order to maintain their places of prestige

 

[at_peace_1]

I don’t denigrate the Church. I do maintain that it has become a bureaucratic entity whose rules and bylaws have complicated the message of Jesus, and have diverted from the path of spiritual simplicity that Jesus encouraged. I think this is the fatal flaw of any large organization, to lose sight of its own original founding vision.

 

[MDK]

The money changers is brought up often, from people of many different Christan faiths. The way I see it, that was God’s house, and Jesus was cleaning up His own place.

This is a fellow Catholic, who has stumbled, and fallen, maybe is a bit bruised up. Better to pick them up than throw rocks at them.

This isn’t some rabid anti-Catholic hell bent on persecuting and killing Christians.

That’s all I’m saying.

Rebecca,
Do you really understand what I’m doing. If you did, then you would also likely understand that no rocks were thrown at them as persons, but was discussing behaviors and defending the Church.

You really don’t make sense… you ask people to behave as Christ. Then you criticize them for acting like Christ. Defending the Church is also defending the House of the Living God…

A fellow Catholic who stumbles can go to confession, and seek to follow Christ once again.

I would think it is more acceptable to attack the behavior of Catholics than to denigrate the Body of Christ. There is never justification for attacking the Church or Catholicism. When one does so, they are attacking Jesus.

You really don’t behave like a happy Catholic.

 

[RobHom]

Today was my first Sunday missing Mass for something other than work obligations. I feel “at peace”.

I can actually “relate” to that… from about 40 years ago, when I abandoned my faith… quit going to Mass, and pretty much wouldn’t hesitate for a “heartbeat” to tell someone where to shove their ideas… Yep, I too felt at peace… but that changed some years later… I was a little slow to catch on. Took me a while to grab hold of what the Holy Spirit was trying to tell me. But I can tell you this…that feeling of being “at peace” didn’t last very long at all…

I would challange those who think they are ‘defending’ the Catholic Church by posting angry, insulting responses to philosophical challanges to their points of view.

I would be tempted to suggest that you temper your reading of emotion in internet forum posts… Looking at words on a screen, and deriving “emotions” from the posts is highly “subjective”. I can assure you that 99% of my posts made here to anyone about anything…are done very “dispassionately” and without any emotion whatsoever. And the other 1%…well sometimes those are playful volley’s in-kind…but in any event… I don’t think there are very many “angry or insulting posts”… maybe some are “pointed and straight forward”… And maybe the reader decides to see the response as “angry and insulting”? Is this possible?

Peace!

 

[MDK]

Also, Jesus opposed the arrogence of the religious leaders of the day, who had become so self satisfied with their own importance that they swaggered and pompously made political deals with civil authorities in order to maintain their places of prestige

Yes, you described what I brought up with mention of the Pharisees.

One who follows Christ and is willing to be part of His Church has to be humble. It is arrogance to think you can do it better than the Church which Jesus built. I don’t think I can do it any better than the Church that Jesus built, and I must be a part of the Body of Christ.

 

[at_peace_1]

Rebecca,
Do you really understand what I’m doing. If you did, then you would also likely understand that no rocks were thrown at them as persons, but was discussing behaviors and defending the Church.

You really don’t make sense… you ask people to behave as Christ. Then you criticize them for acting like Christ. Defending the Church is also defending the House of the Living God…

A fellow Catholic who stumbles can go to confession, and seek to follow Christ once again.

I would think it is more acceptable to attack the behavior of Catholics than to denigrate the Body of Christ. There is never justification for attacking the Church or Catholicism. When one does so, they are attacking Jesus.

You really don’t behave like a happy Catholic.

It’s sad that you feel that you must label those who disagree with your stance in such a way. You come across harshly and less than loving with your words.

 

[at_peace_1]

Yes, you described what I brought up with mention of the Pharisees.

One who follows Christ and is willing to be part of His Church has to be humble. It is arrogance to think you can do it better than the Church which Jesus built. I don’t think I can do it any better than the Church that Jesus built, and I must be a part of the Body of Christ.

You speak of arrogence as if you are the judge and jury as to what qualifies, having never suffered from that malady yourself.

 

[RobHom]

Also, Jesus opposed the arrogence of the religious leaders of the day, who had become so self satisfied with their own importance that they swaggered and pompously made political deals with civil authorities in order to maintain their places of prestige

May I inquire as to the value of repeated rehashing of ancient history where the world of today or the Church is concerned?

Peace!!

 

[at_peace_1]

May I inquire as to the value of repeated rehashing of ancient history where the world of today or the Church is concerned?

Peace!!

History aways repeats itself and we learn from it. That’s why we read scriptures, to learn from the teachings of those before us. That’s why the LOTH are recited by clergy over and over, because those lessons apply to today.

 

[MDK]

You speak of arrogence as if you are the judge and jury as to what qualifies, having never suffered from that malady yourself.

Perspective here, please… I know the definition, although I didn’t create the definition. I have had to overcome many things in my life, and it was done with the help of Christ and His Church. There is not much I accomplish without these.

If you want me to pray for you that you can overcome this malady, I will be happy to do so.

 

[RobHom]

(I don’t denigrate the Church…)=( I do maintain that it has become a bureaucratic entity whose rules and bylaws have complicated the message of Jesus, and have diverted from the path of spiritual simplicity that Jesus encouraged. I think this is the fatal flaw of any large organization, to lose sight of its own original founding vision.)

But here is the problem…look at where I split your statement above. You start out by saying “I don’t denigrate the Church”…and then you commence to do that precisely which you deny doing.

Here is the definition of “denigrate”:

**den·i·grate (dn-grt)
tr.v. den·i·grat·ed, den·i·grat·ing, den·i·grates

1. To attack the character or reputation of; speak ill of; defame.
2. To disparage; belittle: **

Do you see the point?

Peace!

 

[MDK]

It’s sad that you feel that you must label those who disagree with your stance in such a way. You come across harshly and less than loving with your words.

Telling the truth is one of the most loving things one can do. To lie to you would be hatred, of myself and of you.

I don’t see any label in the post you mentioned… other than “happy Catholic.” However, this is a description of a state. What do you expect one to use? If you can’t use words to describe these kinds of states, then how do we converse?

 

[RobHom]

History aways repeats itself and we learn from it. That’s why we read scriptures, to learn from the teachings of those before us. That’s why the LOTH are recited by clergy over and over, because those lessons apply to today.

OK, I’ll buy that…but how does that come into play insofar as your qualms are concerned? Seems to me as though maybe you are trying to paint every member of the Catholic Church and Clergy with a very broad brush…or am I wrong? I seem to remember it was you who had a problem with someone in the parish you were attending Mass…right? Ummm, yes, I checked…it was you, where you said:

People involved in churches and church organisations always succumb to the ordinary evils of bureaurocracy. They hold positions of power that is in their personal self interest to protect. They do this in usual ways, such as squelching their opposition, securing their power base, creating political alliances.

My response to that is this: I don’t worry about what other people “succumb to” on a personal level…until I see them doing something that arbitrarily crosses the line of decency where my being is considered. Yes, that can be “judgmental”…however it is within my rights to protect my being and my family from anyone who has illicit intent.

No person has power over me, unless I first grant them the power. That is a truism. I don’t care if Joe Smurf is elected the Grand Whoopeecushion and thinks he’s someone… Or that Eloise Snidely is elected Chairperson of the Azalea Planters… it simply doesn’t matter to me. My goal in being a Catholic and attending Mass, or whatever I do regarding my Church and my faith has to do with my life and my salvation…and those I can help along the way.

Further you go on to say:

Of course, the Catholic Church, with it’s size and hierarchy, has one of the most strongly established traditions of political intrigue that permeates the culture of its institutions.

That, frankly, along with the balance of your original post causes me to wonder…why you even bothered to post. It sounds as though it may have been ripped from some “ersatz Xian” anti-organized religion “playbook”…or an atheist manifesto.

I’m not trying to be harsh or unfriendly…at all, but everything you have said begs the question: If you are so disaffected and alienated from the Church…then why did you bother to even come here?

It is also said “They who forget the past are doomed to repeat it”.

Peace!

 

[MDK]

You don’t behave and speak like a kind or loving person I’ve noticed, so I don’t take you as a representative of Christ.

I’ve noticed that people, when they are giving scathing retorts to those they disagree with, always compare themselves to Jesus in the Temple. I find that a very weak defense of their bad behavior.

Jesus in the Temple was opposing the commercialization of religious property by souvenir sellers, and his expressed anger was quite the exception to his usual demeanor, which was peaceful. Jesus told us to be meek and turn the other cheek. That was his main message.

I think being like Christ is a very good thing. Forgive me if I don’t find you to be exercising good judgment in pretty much anything I’ve seen here. I don’t think you would accurately differentiate between love, hate, righteous indignation, etc. Are you simply going on feelings of whether one agrees with you or not?

I think you greatly misunderstand both of Christ’s messages. Number one, Jesus said He was protecting His Father’s house, which is sacred. People were abusing it and treating it with less holiness than it deserves. I find you were doing exactly that with the Catholic Church… treating it with much less respect than it deserves, to say the least. The Church is the house of the Living God.

Can one be meek and arrogant at the same time? I suggest you apply this to yourself. I am not arrogantly rejecting the Church that Jesus built, claiming that I can do a better job. I can not, and depend on the Church Christ built for being close to Him and having a wonderful relationship with Him.

Was Jesus turning the other cheek as defined by your implied meaning, when people were disrespecting His Father’s house, and He defended His Father’s house?

 

[c659smith]

History aways repeats itself and we learn from it. That’s why we read scriptures, to learn from the teachings of those before us. That’s why the LOTH are recited by clergy over and over, because those lessons apply to today.

Why then would you follow Jesus Christ Himself as He was well organized.

Peter
The Apostles
Deciples
Followers

Baptism
Communion
Prayer
Self Sacrafice

sounds like organized religion there!

 

[RebeccaJ]

Today was my first Sunday missing Mass for something other than work obligations. I feel “at peace”.

I would challange those who think they are ‘defending’ the Catholic Church by posting angry, insulting responses to philosophical challanges to their points of view.

at peace, a word of caution…the day I had this “great insight” that God did not exist, was indeed a very peaceful moment. I was happy beyond belief.

One moment of peace does indicate anything, not one thing, about your future.

It is a conscience decision you are making. Are you going to stay in Christ’s Church, or not? These tests you are doing, I missed Mass I feel great, I didn’t to this that or the other thing, and I feel great.

It ain’t about feelings, if it were, we’d all be hedonistic fools bent on going to hell, because it feels peaceful and great.

I agree with what MDK is telling you, he is correct in that he is telling you, very clearly, WHAT you are leaving. I don’t know if you have really sat down and thought that through, have you?

What I don’t agree with is excluding you from the Body of Christ, as someone “other”. You are not “other”, you are us, this is where you belong. You belong at Mass, no one there is better or worse than you, we are all sinners.

You don’t belong to the world, wandering around in that place where what I believe is more important than all else. That is never, for one moment, what Christ called us to do.

 

[MDK]

at peace, a word of caution…the day I had this “great insight” that God did not exist, was indeed a very peaceful moment. I was happy beyond belief.

One moment of peace does indicate anything, not one thing, about your future.

It is a conscience decision you are making. Are you going to stay in Christ’s Church, or not? These tests you are doing, I missed Mass I feel great, I didn’t to this that or the other thing, and I feel great.

It ain’t about feelings, if it were, we’d all be hedonistic fools bent on going to hell, because it feels peaceful and great.

I agree with what MDK is telling you, he is correct in that he is telling you, very clearly, WHAT you are leaving. I don’t know if you have really sat down and thought that through, have you?

What I don’t agree with is excluding you from the Body of Christ, as someone “other”. You are not “other”, you are us, this is where you belong. You belong at Mass, no one there is better or worse than you, we are all sinners.

You don’t belong to the world, wandering around in that place where what I believe is more important than all else. That is never, for one moment, what Christ called us to do.

This is a very good post. The Church is the house of the Living God, and as His children, we call it our house as well. It is intended to be the home for all His children. We do recognize saints in those who partook of the Sacraments, and walked in friendship with Christ. Even though we do have saints as examples of what happens when we say yes to God, it’s not really intended to be a museum of saints, so much as a hospital for sinners. It’s what brings Christ to a world much in need of Him.

 

[rinnie]

At Peace, If you dont mind me asking, and if you could really tell me the truth, What really was the point of your thread? Was it that you just wanted to hear People talk negative about Gods Church. Or are you really looking for a reason to come back? Its so hard anymore to know who really wants help in finding Christ again, and who in turn just want to draw others away. I feel so bad saying that but it seems more often the more new people come on this site, the more trouble we have like this. I mean really if you want to talk bad about the CC Im sure there are sites all over the internet that would gladly join in. But as hard as this may be for you to believe I really do come on to try to help people find God and the truth through the RCC. I really believe that much in it to take time out of my day to try to help. Not to fight or argue with people. There is too much of that in the world today because of what you stated. Distance between God and themselves. Organized Religion such as the RCC is the way God wanted it. Thats why its like that, for thousands of years. It has never changed. And it wont change for you or for anyone. And it works, as many on here can testify. We testify to the truth, the way Gods wants us to. If there is a way that I can help you, I would be glad to do that. But on the other hand its hard to stand back and watch people rip your Church in threads when you know how good it really is. I hope you find peace in your heart, but I will tell you this, You will never find Peace if you dont have Christ in your life. That i can promise you.

 

[at_peace_1]

I’ll take your advise and discuss my opinions elsewhere. I thought that the non-Catholic section here was the appropriate section to discuss this. I’ve been told that Belief Net has a broader range of opinions there, I’ll be starting an account over there.

I didn’t realize that these type of discussions on this particular catagory were considered direct attacks by so many here.

God Bless you all, I sincerely hope that you truly find the door to the Kingdom on your chosen path.