Why people become traditionalists

[kjvail]

Charles Coulombe writes about the subject

I’m familiar with him. Two issues I have with his writings - I believe he supports secular monarchy which is little more than a dictatorship and also supports the constitutional monarchy scheme of Western Europe which has reduced the institution to a mere shadow for the sake of public spectacle.

 

[Joe_Omlor]

Iohannes:

Sedevacantists are not traditionalist Catholics

**Oh indeed they are! **

I think they know what they are better than you do!

 

[deogratias]

Kevin

"Is it possible to be a traditionalist without being schismatic? "

Absolutely - as I explained to you in another thread - if you are going to an FSSP Parish (and you said you were) they are completly in union with Rome and not schismatic and their Masses and sacraments are both valid and licit. This and other Indult Masses in any Diocese would be verified as licit by just calling the Diocese when in doubt. A condition of attending Indult or licit Tridentine Masses is acknowledging the validity of NOM.

The SSPX as explained in above are in schism and while their Mass and Consecration is valid, it is not licit. This means their priests have no faculties to celebrate the Tridentine Mass in any U.S. Diocese for one thing and not all their Sacraments are valid or licit (i.e. marriage, confession and absolution). They do not acknowledge the NOM as valid but claim loyalty to the Holy Father.

In the way of background not everyone in the Church embraced the liturgical changes made some 34 years ago. Following the Council, Archbishop Lefebvre of France formed a Fraternity to continue the celebration of the Tridentine Mass and to promote other causes. (SSPX)

In an effort to avoid schism, our Holy Father began a dialogue with Archbishop Lefebvre, which culminated in the publishing of Ouattuor abhinc annos. October 3,1984. This document made it possible for a diocesan bishop to obtain an indult whereby a priest and the faithful could celebrate the Tridentine Mass.

Certain conditions had to be met: the celebration could not be in a parish church; the legitimacy of the “new” Mass could not be called into question; the celebrations had to be in Latin according to the Missal of 1962 (the rites of the old and new missals could not be mixed); and finally the bishop had to inform Rome of what he had granted.

In 1986, a papal commission reviewed the 1984 document and recommended that some conditions be relaxed.

In 1988, in response to the illicit ordination of bishops. Archbishop Lefebvre was excommunicated.

At the same time the Holy Father emphasized that “respect must everywhere be shown for the feelings of all those who are attached to the Latin liturgical tradition, by a wide and generous application of the directive already issued” in 1984.

Sedevacants are yet another issue and believe that the seat of Peter is Vacant - i.e. they do not acknowledge John Paul II as true Pope.

There is another group called New Catholics and some individual renegade Masses as well but again as long as you check with your Diocese, you will not have the problem of worrying about goin to a schismatic Mass.

Do not let these issues distract you - just continue going to the licit Mass you have attended and you won’t have a problem.

 

[Iohannes]

**Oh indeed they are! **

I think they know what they are better than you do!

Come back before it is too late.

“Formal separation from the unity of the Church, a separation from communion with the Church; separation from the head of the Church or from the jurisdiction of the supreme pontiff. The movement of any person or group of persons of the Church who refuse to recognize the central authority of the Church; and denial of the authority of the pope of Rome.”

 

[Knight5080]

Can someone define the difference between a sedevacandist and a schismatic?

 

[deogratias]

See post #43

Also from The Catholic Encylopedia

Schism - “the rupture of ecclesiastical union and unity, i. e. either the act by which one of the faithful severs as far as in him lies the ties which bind him to the social organization of the Church and make him a member of the mystical body of Christ, or the state of dissociation or separation which is the result of that act”

Sedevacant - literally means vacant seat is vacant- and Sedevacants believe the Seat of Peter is Vacant
That is to say, these people think that there has not been a validly elected Pope since before (usually they say) Pius X. There was a controversy during the conclave of Pius X which some people claim made his election invalid. Other Sedevacantists think that Pius XII was the last pope, etc.

Most members of SSPV are Sedevacants as well as schismatic
while SSPX are only schismatic.

 

[Utrecht]

JNB:

Yes valid but not lict. The Old Catholic schism that took place after Vatican I still has some valid lines, the Polish National Catholic church in the US has a valid priesthood(The orders of the other old Catholics in the US are in doubt). The Eastren Orthodox still have valid orders despite their schism.

Since the Old Catholic Churches in the U.S. shar the exact same lines of apostolic succesion, and thier origins, as the PNCC, where proper form, matter and intent exist, the orders of the Old Catholic American Churches are most certainly valid, although there are various dubious groups where this would not be the case.

• Andre’ J.W. Queen, SCR
  Old Catholic Bishop of Chicago
  Provincial Ordinary, Western United States
  The Old Catholic Church of the United States

 

[buffalo]

They are tired of a wishy washy religion with no backbone.

The all loving God scenario without His PERFECT justice doesn’t just seem right.

Anyone know what perfect justice is anymore?

 

[Stylite]

In the Houston area, Holy Rosary Church has a very nice Ordo Mass in Latin in 9am on Sunday and reverent Vernacular Ordos throughout the week. Annunciation has the Tridentine Indult on Sundays.

I still say that the current Ordo, properly celebrated in both English and Latin is very refreshing.

Oh, one last thing. I know the SSPX has valid orders, but do the priests have jurisdiction to validly hear confessions? I thought that could only be validly conferred to the priest by the local ordinary.

-Stylite

 

[Catholicguy]

All Catholics are traditionalists. “Traditional” in relation to Catholic is a tautology.

Maybe one of these soi disant “trads” can cite one Magisterial Text that refers to we Catholics as “traditionalists.”

To be Catholic, one must be in Unity in Worship, Doctrine, and Authority.

The vast majority of soi disant “traditionalists” have severed one or more of the Bonds of Unity. In labelling themselves “traditionalists” they hope to mask their infidelity.

Of course, were I to sever one or more of the Bonds of Unity, it would be much more fun and self-soothing to call myself a “trad” rather than a protestant.

C’est la vie.

 

[A.Pelliccio]

Genuflecting at the Tabernacle is that any diffrence then the usualy kneeling with the sign of the cross when entering a pew? Like would you physically go to the Tebernacle? In my Parish the tabernacle is on the right side of the church so when i kneel into the pew im actually looking at the altar and the crucifix.

Is this wrong? Pardon the ignorance.

 

[Iohannes]

Catholicguy:

All Catholics are traditionalists. “Traditional” in relation to Catholic is a tautology.

Maybe one of these soi disant “trads” can cite one Magisterial Text that refers to we Catholics as “traditionalists.”

To be Catholic, one must be in Unity in Worship, Doctrine, and Authority.

The vast majority of soi disant “traditionalists” have severed one or more of the Bonds of Unity. In labelling themselves “traditionalists” they hope to mask their infidelity.

Of course, were I to sever one or more of the Bonds of Unity, it would be much more fun and self-soothing to call myself a “trad” rather than a protestant.

C’est la vie.

-I do not think 20% is a vast majority of traditionalist.
-Even then, the laity are not in schism, even if one attends an SSPX Mass, unless they renounce the Holy Father, the laity are not in schism. It is the SSPX clergy who are in schism not the laity.

 

[Catholicguy]

reread Ecclesia Dei. Regularly succoring schism is impermissible. That is an action that tends to inculcate a schismatic mentality - one sign of which is an inability to realise one is schismatic.

 

[oldschoolcath23]

The liturgical debates are quite heated, but it shows people have VERY strong feelings about the liturgy, the liturgy being the expression of the church, a way of the church to pass on her beliefs to the parishoner.

Now, on why people eventually end up in the SSPX, SSPV, in schism or Sede territory is because they finally had enough of the “renewal”. It is not these people one day and say “Oh I have a problem with the offertory” and leave. These people are sick of seeing the mass reduced to an almost Evangelical Portestant service externally, trying to get across to their children why the Eucharist is what is, while a small Army of EMHCs are on the altar, and trying to explain to their children what father says during the sermon is not actually what the church teachers. They are sick of having to slog though 45-60 minuites of banal music that sounds like the theme songs of commercials from the 70s and 80s, they are sick of being told they need to “get with the times” when they simpily request just an occasional classic Catholic hymn in English, much less Latin. THey finally reach their breaking point and start to parish shop, and find the liturgical and theological life in these parishes not much better, if not worse, then they often find, by accident, a parish that offers the Latin mass. Because Bishops are still too stingy with Indults, the chapels they go to the offer the Latin mass are in at best an illregular relationship with Rome, if not outright schism, but these people are hungry, hungry for tradition, hungry for just somthing to be reverent, somthing that they can identify as Roman Catholic, somthing of beauty. This is not to mention the many more people who silently siffer in their pews week after week, just to fill their weekly Sunday and day of obligation duty.

YES!! I couldn’tve said it better myself
May the Lord restore His church to her original purity

 

[Fullsizesedan]

*Now, on why people eventually end up in the SSPX, SSPV, in schism or Sede territory is because they finally had enough of the “renewal”. *

That only makes sense for that portion of the SSPX et al who originated in the mainstream Catholic Church. Says nothing about folks who may have converted from non-catholic faiths , or young people raised and taught into that tradition.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

oldschoolcath23:

These people are sick of seeing the mass reduced to an almost Evangelical Portestant service externally, …but these people are hungry, hungry for tradition, hungry for just somthing to be reverent, somthing that they can identify as Roman Catholic, somthing of beauty. This is not to mention the many more people who silently siffer in their pews week after week, just to fill their weekly Sunday and day of obligation duty.

Yes, exactly. People are hungry for reverence, transcendence, and beauty;–they are hungry for worship. I would venture to guess that the great majority of people in these groups came from other Catholics parishes rather than being raised in it or converting directly to it. The above post captured the reasons why people join these groups very well.

 

[swampfox]

Crusader:

The bishop of my diocese is arrogant enough not to allow the Tridentine indult. This has embittered many and has empowered wayward groups like the SSPX. I hope out new bishop allows the indult…

This bishop is pushing Catholics who want to go to a Tridentine Mass into the lap of the SSPX. That is an incredibly ignorant move unless the bishop is trying to chase traditional Catholics out of the CHurch.

 

[swampfox]

Catholicguy:

All Catholics are traditionalists.

I wish it were so but your statement is simply not true. Is Mahony a traditionalist or Greeley or Drinan? How about Ted Kennedy. Pelosi, or Kerry?
Unfortunately, not all Catholics are traditionalists. Many nominal catholics actively campaign to alienate and ostracize those who follow the Faith. How do you explain so many bishops refusing to provide an indult for Tridentine masses in their jurisdictions?

 

[PASCENDI]

Be careful about linking all the Trads in with the Kukoos .

From what I can tell the above folks are Thucs sp? and have very dubious orders.

 

[PASCENDI]

kjvail:

I’m familiar with him. Two issues I have with his writings - I believe he supports secular monarchy which is little more than a dictatorship and also supports the constitutional monarchy scheme of Western Europe which has reduced the institution to a mere shadow for the sake of public spectacle.

A report yesterday said that the Royal Family cost each Briton $1.10 last year. A bargain.

I had also heard that Coulombe is a Feeneyite. Nevertheless, his video on Sedevacantism is pretty good. Does a good job refuting the notion.