Why "practice" religion?

[MontChevalier]

I AM LEAVING THIS COMMUNITY FOR AT LEAST A WHILE, MAYBE FOR GOOD

“Atheists by definition are immoral”

I was offended and disgusted by some of the self-righteousness on here.

I was learning here. Oh well, I have some personal Catholic friends I can speak with.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8630210&postcount=142

“Atheists by definition are immoral”.
Some of the worst five words I’ve heard in my life.
We can be good people, too. We don’t need complicated philosophy and theology to back it up. We have our lives.

Peace

Well, that was…unexpected and legitimately disappointing. But if you go, then at least take into considerations what we’ve told, rather than what caused offense. It profits no one to learn only to throw what we learn away. The attempts of the few should not mark the many as erroneous.

Like the one Templar who stole money from the Saladin Tithe. He was caught and punished, but his efforts should not mean that the Order of the Temple of Jerusalem should all be held responsible and regarded as evil for the actions of one.

There are many other stories that I can use to make my point. But I think it’s already been laid out.

God be with you, and take care.
-MontChevalier

 

[Tenofovir]

I AM LEAVING THIS COMMUNITY FOR AT LEAST A WHILE, MAYBE FOR GOOD

“Atheists by definition are immoral”

I was offended and disgusted by some of the self-righteousness on here.

I was learning here. Oh well, I have some personal Catholic friends I can speak with.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8630210&postcount=142

“Atheists by definition are immoral”.
Some of the worst five words I’ve heard in my life.
We can be good people, too. We don’t need complicated philosophy and theology to back it up. We have our lives.

Peace

I think the poster meant amoral and not immoral, and referred it to atheism and not atheists per se.

I would not say immoral. But I would say that atheism is parasitic on Christianity/Theism in general in that one keeps some of the moral codes and dumps the God belief. I can’t see how atheism alone can generate a moral code we currently have de novo.

Many atheists do agree with this though as well. Atheism is just neutral to the question of morality. That’s why they say you can reason things out from other sources, and not from atheism.

I don’t think you should go, and I don’t think you should thrown temper tantrums. If I threw a temper tantrum every time a internet troll atheist said I was delusional, I would have had a mental breakdown looong ago.

 

[PRmerger]

I think the poster meant amoral and not immoral, and referred it to atheism and not atheists per se.

I would not say immoral. But I would say that atheism is parasitic on Christianity/Theism in general in that one keeps some of the moral codes and dumps the God belief. I can’t see how atheism alone can generate a moral code we currently have de novo.

I have always maintained that atheists can be quite moral, and in fact, I would rather know some atheists have “got my back” rather than some Christians (esp. some that I have encountered on this forum, present company excepted of course! )

However, I don’t believe that atheists can be saintly, a la Maximilian Kolbe. While there are atheists who are good people, who serve the poor and care a great deal more for others than some Christians, there is not a single atheist who would, or could, give up his life in the manner that Maximilian Kolbe did.

(Note: every time I propose that atheists can’t give his life as Kolbe did, an atheist will always offer the example of an atheistic soldier who gives his life. Okay. But if one can’t see the difference between a soldier dying for his country and Maximilian Kolbe offering his life in love for a complete stranger, well, then you’re incapable of understanding the difference between duty and holiness.)

 

[Angels_Eyes]

Maybe you’ll find this analogy helpful:

Let’s say you and your beloved are very close. You travel a lot and keep his picture (sorry! I’m assuming you’re female) near you. You say, “We are so close that my honey is with me all the time in spirit. That’s how close we are!”

Would that be sufficient for you? Or would you also want to be physically present with him, enjoying his company?

Similarly, while God is indeed “around us”, there’s quite a difference between being with Him in nature, or “seeing Him in others”, than actually being physically present with Him, and ONE FLESH with Him at the Eucharist.

I understand your point PRmerger.

So maybe I should attend Mass more. I do love to be closer to God and receive the Eucharist, it almost always brings me to tears. It’s just that I want to believe he is a loving God (as we are told that he is) and that maybe, just maybe, his heart breaks when he sees me so unhappy.

This is just my opinion of course, and my personal struggles with my journey at the moment. I have no doubt God will lead me to exactly where I am meant to be. I just need to be ready to hear his voice and be guided by his loving hand.

God Bless.

 

[Angels_Eyes]

Did you lose touch with God because of Mass?

Hello ‘Incomplete’.

I don’t think I lost touch with God because of Mass, but was feeling that all of these ‘rules’ were constricting me. I was not acting like myself anymore, and had just…well…lost myself. I really felt like I was just going thru the motions, and felt like a completely lost, drifting soul.

I know I am being guided gently back to him. I am feeling the urge to attend Mass this weekend, as I missed the first Sunday in Advent. This is a good thing. I think God has tried many, many times to nudge me in the right direction, he must just roll his eyes and get so sick of me , but he knows me, and I hope he understands my pain.

 

[Angels_Eyes]

Hi,

Perhaps the masses you attend are boring? Perhaps you could go somewhere else?

A mass is only 1 hour per Sunday, I think the Eastern Orthodox Church has services which are 3-4hours long. Surely you spend more than 1 hour per week on other stuff you don’t consider as important as God. Why not just go to be with God? It’s not too much time. It also warms other people up to see a larger attendance. It may bring more people to Church if more people attend.

Don’t you think some people could get sloppy in their faith and more morally relativistic if they attend less and less? Perhaps they could end up picking up bad habits? If this mass thing is not important, then maybe this chastity thing, and then maybe this lying thing, and this belief in Christ’s Resurrection thing is also not important? Perhaps its optional.

It’s really the same case with physicians. One has to keep up with the CME (Continuous Medical Education) program or one becomes a hack as one tends to forget or pick up bad habits from oneself or colleagues.

What do you think? God Bless!

Well, you are correct about the mass. I don’t find it boring, but have a hard time understanding our parish Priest, as he is filipino and his accent is strong. Most people don’t understand him, and when he tells a joke, then laughs, I see everyone looking around at eachother saying, what did he say. I usually laugh, because I find him sort of cute, especially when he does laugh.

It’s a shame though, that I do miss out on a lot of what is being said. It’s not as enjoyable because of this. I could attend the church about half an hour away, but don’t really want to do that. I have friends that attend my church, and also the family group that I recently joined thru the church.

It is true that maybe ‘some’ people might get sloppy in their faith as you said, I don’t know if this is me though. I like to allow some prayer time during the week if I can. I usually light a candle, read some prayers from my ‘Catholic prayers for women’ book, or say a decade. This is always a very special time for me. The time when I feel connected with God.

I also feel connected with God when I look in my children’s eyes, smell the sweet rain on a summer morning, hear bag pipes in the distance, or play my Native American drum.
Surely, this is what he wants. Not only mass attendance.

Although I don’t find mass boring, I probably don’t get a lot out of it as I said above, but I do love receiving the Eucharist. It is the most humble feeling, and I do not feel worthy at all.

Thanks for your reply.
God Bless.

 

[Protestant_Me]

I don’t believe it is a necessity to go to church constantly. I think you can have a great relationship with Christ without all of that. But, it is nice to go to church and feel like you are in tune. I feel so much closer to God when I am there. I like recieving Communion. But I don’t think it makes someone a bad person, or in sin because of it.
God Bless,
Hope someday you find God again, in any way shape or form. Have a lovely evening.

 

[Tenofovir]

Well, you are correct about the mass. I don’t find it boring, but have a hard time understanding our parish Priest, as he is filipino and his accent is strong. Most people don’t understand him, and when he tells a joke, then laughs, I see everyone looking around at eachother saying, what did he say. I usually laugh, because I find him sort of cute, especially when he does laugh.

Hmmm, I can see how that could be a problem for some people. I had a Russian priest once whose parents were killed by the Bolsheviks and who was raised in Korea, and a saint he was in his behaviour and things he did for complete strangers outside of the church. He even met Mother Theresa and climbed under a table to meet her and hand her an envelope with a donation he had saved up, as he wasn’t important enough to meet her. He had an accent but he spoke simply and one could understand if one concentrated a bit. Too bad I was still pretty young then.

It’s a shame though, that I do miss out on a lot of what is being said. It’s not as enjoyable because of this. I could attend the church about half an hour away, but don’t really want to do that. I have friends that attend my church, and also the family group that I recently joined thru the church.

But that’s another reason to attend, too.

It is true that maybe ‘some’ people might get sloppy in their faith as you said, I don’t know if this is me though. I like to allow some prayer time during the week if I can. I usually light a candle, read some prayers from my ‘Catholic prayers for women’ book, or say a decade. This is always a very special time for me. The time when I feel connected with God.

I get you but I think few people will consider that that can affect them. I think we’re sometimes overconfident and I’ve been caught out a few times, not just on this issue but on many other similar issues unrelated to religion. Sometimes it’s difficult to judge oneself.

I also feel connected with God when I look in my children’s eyes, smell the sweet rain on a summer morning, hear bag pipes in the distance, or play my Native American drum.
Surely, this is what he wants. Not only mass attendance.

I agree to a point but I think that we can start to decide for ourselves what God wants this way and who knows when we’ll stop. This is also how some people judge the world and turn away from God for such emotional reasons. For example, they say, there is so much evil in the world, ergo there is no God. Or there is a god but that god is evil because the world is not nice enough. I don’t think we can judge like that and so I think basing important doctrinal decisions on gut feel can be risky as it’s not really rational and that one can introduce many heresies that way. What do you think? This may not affect you, but it’s difficult to know.

Although I don’t find mass boring, I probably don’t get a lot out of it as I said above, but I do love receiving the Eucharist. It is the most humble feeling, and I do not feel worthy at all.

Well there’s the best reason for attending

Thanks for your reply.
God Bless.

My pleasure. God bless you likewise, and everyone else on this forum.

 

[Incomplete]

Hello ‘Incomplete’.

I don’t think I lost touch with God because of Mass, but was feeling that all of these ‘rules’ were constricting me. I was not acting like myself anymore, and had just…well…lost myself. I really felt like I was just going thru the motions, and felt like a completely lost, drifting soul.

I know I am being guided gently back to him. I am feeling the urge to attend Mass this weekend, as I missed the first Sunday in Advent. This is a good thing. I think God has tried many, many times to nudge me in the right direction, he must just roll his eyes and get so sick of me , but he knows me, and I hope he understands my pain.

I’m so glad you are being guided gently back!

I’m not sure what you mean about the “rules” thing. I wish I could help you there. It is clear, though, that you love God.

The eyeroll comment, I just have to share something. I am involved in a four-year scripture class. Reading a huge segment at once about the Israelites and the many, many times they turned from God, I was rolling my eyes when all of a sudden I got this imagery of the Communion of Saints in heaven rolling their eyes at ME at my own lack of understanding! The number of times I have looked first to myself, and yet God always takes me back.

 

[vsedriver]

Sounds right.

An agnostic and non-religious person who if concluded Theism (vs Deism) is “correct” would be Catholic due to historical evidence.

so the question is, do you want a relationship with God? If yes, how do you ‘get in touch’? If no, then the whole thread is moot.

 

[vsedriver]

I met Catholics that do not know the difference between Christ and the Trinity, think the Immaculate Conception is the Virgin Birth, etc, etc, etc…but they still go to Mass every Sunday, pray etc…they don’t know what they are doing. These things bother me.

This greatly bothered my best friend who was a deeply devout pentecostal Christian. I told her that only God knows our hearts and maybe those folks have a deep relationship with God that just isn’t evident to you.

Again…saying “God is a mystery and we will never know” does not suffice to me.
Yes our brains our small, why not use what mental energy we have to live this life without religion?

But I am not living for this life. I live for the next. This life is mortal and temporary. Mk 8:36 For what shall it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his soul?

 

[vsedriver]

Religion is different, it pertains to to matters that exist outside of time and space. For example, the Catholic Church claims that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ on Earth. The Earth is a TINY TINY TINY TINY TINY blue dot in possibly some obscure corner of a corner of a corner of the Universe. For me, I just need to know everything before accepting such huge claims.

But you can never ‘know’ everything. What you need is a leap of faith. Part of our relationship with God is to let go of our sense of control over our lives and give it over to God. I think that is the hardest thing for an intelligent person to do. We humans are real control freaks.

 

[PRmerger]

But you can never ‘know’ everything. What you need is a leap of faith. Part of our relationship with God is to let go of our sense of control over our lives and give it over to God. I think that is the hardest thing for an intelligent person to do. We humans are real control freaks.

Indeed. And what’s interesting is I find that skeptics who have a very, very strict criterion for what they’ll believe regarding matters of faith/religion have a much, much more liberal “faith” in lots of other things. For example, they’ll take someone’s word for it that Jefferson City is the capital of Missouri, even if they’ve never been there and seen the state gov’t in action. If they are questioned, “What’s the capital of Missouri?” they’ll answer without a moment of doubt, “Why, its Jeff City of course!”

Yet, for some reason, if someone is asking them to believe in the incarnation of Christ, they’ll say, “Well, I’ve never met him, so I really wouldn’t know for sure if he even existed, let alone was God.”

Of course, some skeptics will reply: faith in geography is quite different than faith in a mythical creature that’s going to demand that I change my life.

That’s a valid point, to which I respond: what about trusting your life to complete strangers, based on faith? Do you offer as much skepticism to the engineers who built the bridge that you cross every day during your commute at work? Isn’t that at least a little bit more important than what the capital of Missouri is? Yet you still don’t doubt that this bridge is safe.

 

[Quarles47]

Because we haven’t perfected it yet. :hey_bud:

 

[vsedriver]

Have any religious people here considered that perhaps their religions are a continuation spiritual practices of human civilization. Looking into the anthropology and history of religion, we can see that humans have had some sort of religion for many thousands of years. I know the Catholic Church’s response is something along the lines of “truth” arriving with Christ. I believed that before, but doesn’t it seem more probable that current religions are just that-human inventions?

Because we have an immortal soul, a divine spark so to speak is it unreasonable to consider that there has always been an awareness of God? That this awareness is the foundation for religion?

Christ completed the fullness of this awareness of God. We no longer have to guess about who God is and what kind of relationship He wants with us, because it has been revealed to us.

These circumstances include but are not limited to: fast spread of Christianity, literacy of those who spread it, etc, etc, etc.

Fast spread? it was an outlawed religion for centuries. And the vast majority of believers were not literate. With all the persecutions and antisocial standing of Christians this religion should have died out early in the second century. Not only has it survived it has crossed cultural boundries that had no foundation in the same theology.

No one religious here has given a good response to these concerns of mine aside from vague statements like "well it might all be wrong, but still God might exist so we should practice religion.

perhaps your parameters are too vague.

Just look at religion in world, it is slowly they are slowly evolving/becoming less religious:: progressive Christianity, Unitarian Universalism, etc.

that’s not surprising at all. As material wealth increases world wide people turn away from God. You can’t serve two masters. But Jesus did say the way was narrow and few would make it.

Think about it…the God of the Universe starting the One True Church around 33 AD in some obscure place on Earth…or that One True Church is a continuation of humans’ attempt at religion…and it’s still here?

Name one other human institution still up and running. Or are you saying that humans are generating the continuation of religion as a function of being human? I prefer to think that religion continues because humans desire a relationship with the divine.

Please, no one has provided a good response aside from vague religious comments…because maybe that is all religion can come up with?

could be that your definition of ‘good response’ is too limited.

I am really trying to understand this phenomenon of religion.

Is it religion you are attempting to understand or is it faith? For the former I recommend taking a philosophy of religion course. For the later, I recommend prayer with an open, submissive heart.

 

[vsedriver]

If there be some supreme being out there, so be it. However, religion is the reduction of that supreme being into extreme details: seven sacraments, etc, etc, etc.
Peace.

Have you considered that religion is the only way the human mind can conceive of a relationship to the divine?

And what’s wrong with expressing ideas and concepts via poetry? Sometimes only art can speak where science is speachless.

 

[vsedriver]

The idea of God is like the possibility of civilizations on other planets.
Religion is like believing there are absolutely civilizations on other planets AND they speak French, where khakis, etc, etc…too many specifics.

You can know about those civilizations from the aliens that visit your home world and abduct humans and from their crashed vehicles at area 51.

Your analogy falls short because you exclude the possibility of contact between God and humans as in divine revelation.

 

[vsedriver]

I am at a ‘cross-roads’ with my practice and attendance at Church.
I was raised Catholic, left and returned again (after Occult practices etc) only early this year. I have since, only the last month or so, been questioning it all again. I felt I had lost touch with God (again) so I have not attended Mass for a while now.

When I think of the horrible suffering of Christ on the cross for my sins, how can I tell Him that I can’t be bothered to go to Mass for one hour a week. I do it in thanks for His willingness to suffer 3 hours for me.

I found my faith increasing the more often I attended Mass. Now I only miss if I am ill or snowed in.

 

[samiam1611]

But you can never ‘know’ everything. What you need is a leap of faith. Part of our relationship with God is to let go of our sense of control over our lives and give it over to God. I think that is the hardest thing for an intelligent person to do. We humans are real control freaks.

This brings to mind a quote by Nathanial Branden:

“To practice the “virtue” of faith, one must be willing to suspend one’s sight and one’s judgment; one must be willing to live with the unintelligible, with that which cannot be conceptualized or integrated into the rest of one’s knowledge, and to induce a trance like illusion of understanding. One must be willing to repress one’s critical faculty and hold it as one’s guilt; one must be willing to drown any questions that rise in protest—to strangle any trust of reason convulsively seeking to assert its proper function as the protector of one’s life and cognitive integrity.”

 

[PRmerger]

This brings to mind a quote by Nathanial Branden:

“To practice the “virtue” of faith, one must be willing to suspend one’s sight and one’s judgment; one must be willing to live with the unintelligible, with that which cannot be conceptualized or integrated into the rest of one’s knowledge, and to induce a trance like illusion of understanding. One must be willing to repress one’s critical faculty and hold it as one’s guilt; one must be willing to drown any questions that rise in protest—to strangle any trust of reason convulsively seeking to assert its proper function as the protector of one’s life and cognitive integrity.”

Yes, this is an absolutely valid viewpoint.

Which is why the Church rejects Fideism.