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Guyonthestreet
Guest
Trishie, Im very humbled that you would share this. Thank you.
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LilyM
Guest
You’re creating a completely fake distinction in your mind between time spent in the company of God and time spent in the company of the saints.Great. That’s that sorted then
I’m not making myself clear. I’m not aiming to do the bare minimum. Im aiming to do what God asked me to do.
To love God and love my neighbor is a fulltime, ever expanding job - not the bare minimum. What I mean is, I want to worship and adore God and God alone. This is what Catholics do. I am missing something. The Eucharist.
Im struggling with the idea that Catholics have the Eucharist, as ordained and given by Christ Himself, yet seem to spend so much time in prayer with saints, Mary and so on. If I had access to the Eucharist as catholics do, if I could worship God truely present as catholics do, I canot think that I could have a nanogram of thought or energy for anything else than my God. Im trying to understand why catholics do what they do. And I cant. So you may be right, Catholicism maybe isnt for me.
Now tell me, having direct access to God, would you never use any of that time spent with Him to pray for His other children, whom He loves every bit as dearly as you? Would you be so utterly selfish as to spend the whole time praying for yourself? Would you be so completely lacking in charity as to fail to bring before Him a prayer that your friend or neighbour has requested that you offer for them?
Even though He commanded you to love others as He loves you - unselfishly? How could you claim to love them if you never prayed for them to Him? If you ignored their requests for prayer? How could you claim to love God if you never had an interest in the welfare of His other children?
That being the case, do you really think the Saints, who have love of God that you cannot even dream of, and the utmost access to God and knowledge of the deepest desires of His heart, would not pray for His earthly children? Would fail to present their prayers to Him?
God always has worked and always will work THROUGH people. It’s the way He chooses to do things. He came to Israel THROUGH the prophets, He came to us THROUGH the humanity of Jesus Christ. He used the human authors of scripture to pass on His word to us.
Why did He do all this? Could He not have given His commands and message sto Israel directly, without speaking through the mouths of the prophets? Absolutely. Could He have saved mankind directly, without becoming flesh Himself? Absolutely. Could He have just materialised scripture out of thin air for us, without human hand having to touch paper? Of course. But He chose not to.
And He also hears the pleas His loved servants make on behalf of His people - Abraham for the people of Sodom and Gomorrah, Moses for the people of Israel after they had worshipped the Golden Calf.
Likewise when we present our prayers to Him. As I have already explained, in giving us the Our Father He teaches us to pray for each other, and hence to seek the prayers of others as well. The two things are two sides of one coin.
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LynneMarie
Guest
Hi Guyonthestreet,
Welcome! First of all all Glory & Honor go to God and his son Jesus Christ…Jesus mother played a significant role in his life…How many woman would of had him under the circumstances, considering she was a virgin, she was very holy and wise and if it weren’t for her acceptance of faith in God , well we would have no Jesus…We do have the utmost respect for her ,and we pray the rosary through her, and we ask if she can give our petitions to her son…she knows he is the only power and she is well, like his helper…along with angels and saints…they all are known for something that they can specifically help you with…Like Michael the Archeangel is for protection etc…also saints St. Peregrine for cancer or St. Anthony for financial help…we are still praying to God through them all…they are not the power, but just his helpers…his choice to hold them in such high regard…Like a president picking out his cabinet members etc…After years and years of doing a monthly rosary, i can tell you, Jesus still listens to his mother as i have witnessed so much healing…Hope this helps…but every catholic always knows, God is the one and only, along with his son Jesus.Christ…no one else…Warmly, LynneMarie
Welcome! First of all all Glory & Honor go to God and his son Jesus Christ…Jesus mother played a significant role in his life…How many woman would of had him under the circumstances, considering she was a virgin, she was very holy and wise and if it weren’t for her acceptance of faith in God , well we would have no Jesus…We do have the utmost respect for her ,and we pray the rosary through her, and we ask if she can give our petitions to her son…she knows he is the only power and she is well, like his helper…along with angels and saints…they all are known for something that they can specifically help you with…Like Michael the Archeangel is for protection etc…also saints St. Peregrine for cancer or St. Anthony for financial help…we are still praying to God through them all…they are not the power, but just his helpers…his choice to hold them in such high regard…Like a president picking out his cabinet members etc…After years and years of doing a monthly rosary, i can tell you, Jesus still listens to his mother as i have witnessed so much healing…Hope this helps…but every catholic always knows, God is the one and only, along with his son Jesus.Christ…no one else…Warmly, LynneMarie
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JRKH
Guest
To answer very directly the Bolded part - No!! it is not Essential.
However Jesus DID expect the faithful to support one another.
He Chose 12 Apostles so that there would be a group for support and prayer
He sent out the 72 in pairs so that they would have the support of each other.
Finally, Jesus Himself interceded with the Father on Behalf of the Apostles, John 17 particularly verses 13-20. Granted, the Apostles did not ask Jesus to pray for them, but they certainly could have asked.
I’m sure there are other passages both in the Bible and Early Church that demonstrate the acceptability of intercessory prayer but that was not your question. Your question was “is it essential”. No it is not.
Peace
James
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JRKH
Guest
This is a common misunderstanding among many non-catholic christians.
The misunderstanding comes from the idea of “praying to” someone else. The question is what are we praying “to” them for? We pray only for them to intercede, that is to pray with us. Much like you say in your first paragraph.
We explain it like this: When someone in your family or church community is sick, do you ask others to pray for them?
Praying to those saints in heaven is like this. Simply asking them to pray along with you to God.
Peace
James
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JRKH
Guest
When Paul wrote this all “Christians” were catholics. That is they belonged to the One Holy Catholic (universal) and Apostolic Church, so yes when we refer to “saints” we are making the same reference as Paul.
Peace
James
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JRKH
Guest
There was another thread that asked about “degrees of perfection” but it got way deeper than I could follow.
Jesus says: in Mt 5:48
"Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
This should be scary - for it is your immortal soul that is at stake.
Jesus did not come to give us some quick fix as some preachers would have us believe. Ther is no OSAS or other panacea. Jesus came to challenge us: “Take up your Cross”, “Follow me”, “Sell all that you have”, “Love your enemies”, “Do good to those who despise you”, “Believe”, “Trust”, Have faith" etc…
Anyone who truly chooses to follow Our Lord, embarks upon a spiritual, and physical journey that will last the rest of their lives. It is a journey fraught with dangers, pits, detours, and evils. The road is narrow, and the Goal can be distant, but Jesus is here with us always, guiding us both personally and through His Holy Church.
This road is not for the faint of heart, but for the sincere who are wise, not in the ways of the world but in their Love of God.
Peace
James
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Hislittlelady
Guest
Welcome Guyonthestreet,
I’m sure all the Catholics here very much appreciate your complete respect and understanding of the saints in heaven and the wonderful explanation given regarding them. Although I’ve been a Catholic all my life, I myself find that I go mainly to Jesus.
I’m never disrespecting our Blessed Mother nor the Saints, but I feel a continuous compulsion to pray to Jesus. He is my great love. He is the one I’m drawn to and I actually must admit I don’t pray to saints. It’s a wonderful thing to have the saints in heaven as our friends and a help to us in times of need, which I’m sure if they stand before the throne for us, God can and many times does honor their prayers. I know this for certain becuase of an experience I once had.
However, even with this, still I’m drawn to always pray to Jesus. I love and honor our Blessed Mother, I hold her name above all women and I fully believe she is crowned as Queen of Heaven. she is a comfort to us even if we’re unaware of it. After all, what would anyone think that the human part of Jesus would have done with his earthly mother but to bring her to himself in heaven, I’d say a little higher then the rest of humanity since she was visited by an angel and was call blessed by the angel as well. I cannot even fathom how some people don’t acknowledge her in any way at all. It’s just beyond my thinking.
I especially love the crowning of Mary held in May. What a beautiful honor to the Mother of Jesus.
Even though there’s not a lot of mention of Mary in the bible, my personal thoughts are that God gave each of us a brain and a mouth to speak, and with that He made it come to our understanding about His Mother that gave birth to the son. What I’m saying is that really there was no need for Mary to be mentioned in the bible when it’s so very obvious how special she was. We don’t need that written in a book. Just my humble thoughts here.
Many Catholics find their way to Jesus through Mary which is a great blessing. For myself, I found Jesus because I heard him calling me by name. Praise God.
I’d say it’s absolutely correct to pray for Mary’s intercession if this is where you are drawn to and it’s a wonderful thing, and the church teaches that she is a powerful intercessor for all of us.
:knight1: :curtsey:
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JRKH
Guest
So, would you give up the Eucharist because you don’t understand “other Catholics” and their personal devotions? This doesn’t sound like a “minimalist” approach to me. I don’t mean to be critical, I do believe I know what you’re trying to achieve, but don’t try to look at every approved devotional, and every, practice that might be among Catholics.Great. That’s that sorted then
I’m not making myself clear. I’m not aiming to do the bare minimum. Im aiming to do what God asked me to do.
To love God and love my neighbor is a fulltime, ever expanding job - not the bare minimum. What I mean is, I want to worship and adore God and God alone. This is what Catholics do. I am missing something. The Eucharist.
Im struggling with the idea that Catholics have the Eucharist, as ordained and given by Christ Himself, yet seem to spend so much time in prayer with saints, Mary and so on. If I had access to the Eucharist as catholics do, if I could worship God truely present as catholics do, I canot think that I could have a nanogram of thought or energy for anything else than my God. Im trying to understand why catholics do what they do. And I cant. So you may be right, Catholicism maybe isnt for me.
Take a look at the teachings and doctrine of the Fatih. Look at what IS required, and then look, not at what is permissable in general, but rather look at whether what you ask is OK. That answer is Yes. Yes you can pray just to God. Yes you can center all of your devotional life on Him. That is the critical answer.
I believe that you will come into the Church eventually. God has planted this love of the eucharist in your heart. He will not abandon you.
Peace
James
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Hislittlelady
Guest
What a beautiful posting this is. I encourage you and urge you to please come and study the Catholic faith. There is no other like it. It is the one true Holy Catholic Apostolic faith of Jesus and I can see you are skirting on the borderline here. Everything you said sounds just like me. I praise and worship my Jesus morning, noon and night and there are no others before him.
As I said in a previous post, of course as Catholics we do love Mary, we so highly honor her, but it’s not an obligation of our faith that we must pray directly to her. It’s to our benefit if we do, but you do not have to. Although you must hold her in your heart in honor and respect as Mother of Jesus. The saints are simply the most obedient and holy servants of the Lord, and I believe there are many saintly Protestants in heaven too, although not all may agree with that, but just a personal thought of mine. There have been many, many holy Protestants and that’s what their hearts understood and God knows each human heart and he is the judge of all, not us.
I fully believe that once you kneel before the crucifix of our Lord, and then afterward receive His Body and Blood, your faith will grow even stronger then it is now. I know the Catholic church looks kind of scary, but really it’s not. We are under the jurisdiction of the Pope of Rome, but that’s a good thing. He is guided by the Holy Spirit, as taught to us from the early church Fathers, who learned this from the Apostles through Jesus himself. Therefore, We are taught all the truths set down by Jesus, with no errors. If you study the Catechism of the church, you hopefully will find the truth in this.
Also take note that there is no other Christian denomination that has not had division upon division, new churches springing up here and there, no specific doctrines as we have, which tells us something. The Catholic church has not changed in two thousand years, not the teachings at least. We have followed one doctrine since Jesus Christ appointed his apostles and then appointed Peter the first Holy Pope of the Catholic church, and Jesus gave him the authority to bind and loose on earth.
Blessings to you and praying for a conversion of your heart to the true church of Jesus. I promise you won’t be sorry. God will be with you and He will guide you.
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Guyonthestreet
Guest
Hi James. Thank you again for your advice and (name removed by moderator)ut. I was kidding when I said that
The clue was in the smilie after I flippantly said, good thats that sorted HisLittleLady, thank you too. You made a point thatt struck a chord with me. The consistency and singularity of the catholic church. I dont believe other churches have this.
James, I think you do understand me. When I was travelling the world, I would sometimes be ‘‘taken in’’ by locals when they saw me pitch my tent. They would feed me and give me a blanket to sleep under when it was so obvious they had hardly food enough for themselves. I travelled off the beaten track where I could, to see the ‘‘real’’ country I was in. In poorer places, I found it was the people who literally had nothing, were prepared to give you everything. I once asked a woman for a cabbage from her garden and offered her money for it . She gave me the cabbage, an egg, and a root crop that looked like a parsnip. She lived in a wooden shack that was falling down, no electricity, her clothes were falling off her back, and she was in the middle of nowhere. It was 20 below. She wouldnt take my money, and she gave me a blessing for the road. I learned so much on that trip. The ones with the least, gave most, the ones with the most, give least.
I visited churches everywhere I went. Some were awesome, the splendour, the architecture, the brillance, and yet, it was sitting in a tiny chapel attached to a monastary in the alps, in a tiny space, that had 2 monks, and the tabernacle (sp) nothing else anywhere, nothing to distract, nothing to take your eye or your mind from God, total and complete silence, that I felt most at peace, most at home.
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ahollars
Guest
Rather than focus on the Saints as a whole, instead focus on why each individual was given the title of Saint. The shortest answer is that “Saint” means that we on earth know for a fact that Saint X is indeed in heaven with God. This title is not given for the vast majority who do make it, but rather whose intercession for us on earth has glorified God with His wonder, usually in the form of a miracle. Take the greatest example, Mary. Jesus glorified her perfectly in his earthly life. If we are called to imitate Christ, then we must also glorify her. As we know from Jewish tradition, the queen is the king’s mother. When Solomon was on his throne and Bathsheba entered the court, the king rose from his throne and bowed to her. The queens role was to bring the petitions of the people to the king, and the king’s answer:
Make your request my mother, for I will not refuse you.
Why would you not want the Most Gracious Advocate on your side? Do you really believe you can do it on your own? I don’t.
PS… No, I didn’t come up with that on my own.
Make your request my mother, for I will not refuse you.
Why would you not want the Most Gracious Advocate on your side? Do you really believe you can do it on your own? I don’t.
PS… No, I didn’t come up with that on my own.
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JRKH
Guest
I told you before that you strike me as the “Hermit” or monastic type and you just reaffirmed it. A simple life, Just work, prayer, God, Love, etc. - simple. These are the things that most must strive for in our “consumer” world. You have already been gifted with a great grace. Don’t lose that. Keep on coming my friend. I believe you will be in the Church soon.Hi James. Thank you again for your advice and (name removed by moderator)ut. I was kidding when I said that
HisLittleLady, thank you too. You made a point thatt struck a chord with me. The consistency and singularity of the catholic church. I dont believe other churches have this.
James, I think you do understand me. When I was travelling the world, I would sometimes be ‘‘taken in’’ by locals when they saw me pitch my tent. They would feed me and give me a blanket to sleep under when it was so obvious they had hardly food enough for themselves. I travelled off the beaten track where I could, to see the ‘‘real’’ country I was in. In poorer places, I found it was the people who literally had nothing, were prepared to give you everything. I once asked a woman for a cabbage from her garden and offered her money for it . She gave me the cabbage, an egg, and a root crop that looked like a parsnip. She lived in a wooden shack that was falling down, no electricity, her clothes were falling off her back, and she was in the middle of nowhere. It was 20 below. She wouldnt take my money, and she gave me a blessing for the road. I learned so much on that trip. The ones with the least, gave most, the ones with the most, give least.
I visited churches everywhere I went. Some were awesome, the splendour, the architecture, the brillance, and yet, it was sitting in a tiny chapel attached to a monastary in the alps, in a tiny space, that had 2 monks, and the tabernacle (sp) nothing else anywhere, nothing to distract, nothing to take your eye or your mind from God, total and complete silence, that I felt most at peace, most at home.
By the way, I couldn’t agree more about the hightlighted part. I am at my happiest when I can just sit quietly in an empty and darkish Church especially older ones.
Peace
James
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Guyonthestreet
Guest
I forgot to add to the last post, there were only a handful of monks, but they told me they have like a shift pattern, so that there is always at least one monk in front of the tabernacle praying, offering thanks, and giving glory to God. They have been doing this since the monastary was founded. Can you imagine that. A little spot on the earth, in a very remote and desolate region, where God is always being Glorified and honored??!!! To me, that is so beyond awesome I cant get my head around it.
I also forgot to mention that thanks to you good people on this thread, I spoke to someone in the parish office near me, and was given the name of someone to speak to - they deal with people like me enquiring about the faith. I called and left a message.
I also forgot to mention that thanks to you good people on this thread, I spoke to someone in the parish office near me, and was given the name of someone to speak to - they deal with people like me enquiring about the faith. I called and left a message.
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JRKH
Guest
GLORY TO GOD IN THE HIGHEST. Congratulations.
I’m sure you are coming home!!
Keep us posted.
To your comment on the eucharistic adoration.
There are a number of places around that have perpetual adoration. One of the parishes just up the road here has an adoration Chapel. Just regular folks who take shifts, and anyone can come in and pray. There is always someone there. I bet you could find something like that where you are too.
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Hislittlelady
Guest
I have felt the Spirit speak to my heart and I feel you have been chosen by the Lord and He has given you a special grace. Follow what your heart hears because He just might be calling you to service for Him. Oh the beauty of such an honor. The absolute joy for one’s heart. May God walk with you and guide you until He leads you to the mission He has prepared for you. May His light shine upon you.
Blessings and Honor to God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit
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po18guy
Well-known member
First of all brother, welcome! It is a pleasure to answer your questions. Have a quick read of James:
James 5:16 “Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.”
This, Catholics do at the start of the mass, in the penitential rite:
I confess to almighty God,
and to you, my brothers and sisters,
that I have sinned through my own fault,
in my thoughts and in my words,
in what I have done,
and in what I have failed to do;
and I ask blessed Mary, ever virgin,
all the angels and saints,
and you, my brothers and sisters,
to pray for me to the Lord, our God.
We ask the Saints for pray for us, since God is God of the living, not of the dead (Luke 20:38, Matthew 22:32, Mark 12:27). Both Moses and Elijah were revealed to be alive at the transfiguration, and Jesus was speaking with them.
How much more effective is the prayer of a Saint in Heaven (Revelation 5:8, 8:3-4), who stands in the presence of God? Yes, the prayers of the faithful on earth are “powerful and effective” (James 5), which I can attest to from personal experience.
Asking the Angels and Saints to pray for us is also a sign of solidarity, of communion in the one Church. Saint Paul said that neither life nor death can separate us from the love of God (Romans 8:39). So, we use every available resource when we are in need (which is always!).
As so many Catholics have learned (yes, me as well), crack that book open and have a read!
Keep seeking the truth! Amen.
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Peter_J
Guest
Hi Guyonthestreet,
Catholics talking about “praying to the saints” is due in large part to St. Thomas Aquinas.
But the crucial point to understand is that St. Thomas did not say “You know, we’ve been praying to God alone for all these centuries, but now I think we should start praying to the saints too.”
On the contrary, St. Thomas’ idea was that Christians had been praying to the saints right along, they just hadn’t called it that. More specifically, whenever we ask the saints in heaven to pray for us, we are in fact praying to the saints. (For further reading I’d recommend this portion of the Summa Theologica.)
Fast forward to today, the phrase “praying to the saints” is quite ubiquitous is Catholic circles. And of course there’s number 2679 of the CCC:
“Mary is the perfect Orans (pray-er), a figure of the Church. When we pray to her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father, who sends his Son to save all men. Like the beloved disciple we welcome Jesus’ mother into our homes, for she has become the mother of all the living. We can pray with and to her. The prayer of the Church is sustained by the prayer of Mary and united with it in hope.”
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diggingdeeper
Guest
So how is that working for you? Don’t give me churchy answers. Be real.
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LilyM
Guest
Well, it’s a big struggle, but I’ve never expected it not to be.
I CAN say I’m quite a different (and measurably improved in some significant ways) person than I was just over three years ago when I reverted. And God willing will continue to improve.
That’s real.
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