Why pray to anyone but Jesus?

[TimothyH]

His second paragraph appears to me to say the same thing as your second paragraph. Could you quote a difference?

His third and fourth paragraphs seem to me to say the same thing as the Catechism paragraph 2683. That paragraph quotes the same passage he quoted to prove what appears to me to be the same thing he used it for: that we should pray to the saints because God has put them in charge of certain things. Read it here: CCC 2683 – The witnesses who have preceded us into the kingdom, especially those whom the Church recognizes as saints, share in the living tradition of prayer by the example of their lives, the transmission of their writings, and their prayer today. They contemplate God, praise him and constantly care for those whom they have left on earth. When they entered into the joy of their Master, they were “put in charge of many things.” Their intercession is their most exalted service to God’s plan. We can and should ask them to intercede for us and for the whole world.

I did use the Catechism and the footnotes - it makes me seem smarter than I really am.

-Tim-

 

[tacdon]

From the Apocalypse:

“2 And I saw seven angels standing in the presence of God; and there were given to them seven trumpets.
3 And another angel came, and stood before the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar, which is before the throne of God.
4 And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel.”

Its talking about the saints who are alive on earth, not the ones in heaven.

 

[ClearWater]

The saints it is speaking of were alive at that time.

How do you know? I think it’s more of a reference to someone who is already in heaven, personally.

We don’t see any difference insofar as prayer is concerned. Someone on earth can pray for us or heaven. Either way, it’s all good.

 

[TimothyH]

If the bible doesn’t contain everything that is needed then who is to say the book of Mormon or the Koran isn’t just another revelation.

For starters, they don’t have 5000+ fulfilled prophesies.

-Tim-

 

[tacdon]

+JMJ+

“For He is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto Him.” Luke 20:38

Well what do you call the corpse of a person that is in the grave? Isn’t their body dead? Of course their spirit is alive.

 

[dmar198]

If the bible doesn’t contain everything that is needed then who is to say the book of Mormon or the Koran isn’t just another revelation.

Those books contradict the Bible, and they don’t go back to the Apostles. That’s why we know they aren’t revealed by God.

My question is, didn’t the Catholic Church put together the Bible? How would you know Esther belongs in the Bible, for example, if the Catholic Church hadn’t made a list of books and included that on it? I think there’s good evidence that the Catholic Church put together the Bible. Do you agree? And if you do, why do you trust its decision? If the Church isn’t infallible, how do you know it didn’t get that wrong?

 

[dmar198]

Well what do you call the corpse of a person that is in the grave? Isn’t their body dead? Of course their spirit is alive.

The body is dead, but it’s from the spirit that we pray anyway, that’s why we don’t think that matters. Does that make sense?

 

[ClearWater]

Well what do you call the corpse of a person that is in the grave? Isn’t their body dead? Of course their spirit is alive.

We call a dead body a “corpse” or “cadaver”.

Well, to us, it doesn’t matter if the person in question is in heaven (body in the grave) or has his body still on earth. Insofar as prayer is concerned, it makes no difference to us. Prayer is prayer. A person can intervene for another from heaven or earth, either way.

Recall that Abraham was asked to intervene for the rich man’s (in hell) brothers. Abraham declined. Abraham’s body was in the earth. He resided in heaven, could have intervened from there, just didn’t.

 

[Razanir]

That’s correct, but classically Catholics call that praying to saints. In older English “pray” meant “ask,” e.g. “I pray thee, where are they?” When Catholics say “praying to the saints,” it’s with that older meaning of ask – specifically, we ask them for their intercession. As I said, when Catholics say “praying to the saints,” we are using it in an older usage that could be applied to people without implying that you are worshipping them. Does that make sense?

The irony in this: As early as Genesis, the King James Version, even, uses it this way.

“Say, I pray thee, thou art my sister: that it may be well with me for thy sake; and my soul shall live because of thee.” Gen 12:13, Abram speaking to Sarah.

I didn’t call them saints, because as a protestant I consider saint to also mean Christians who are alive now.

Fair enough. Just know that in Catholic usage, it means those in Heaven.

People die all the time. There body dies but their spirit does not, so their body is dead.

Okay. So they’re dead from an earthly perspective. But we’ve shown to you, directly from the Bible, that they are still very much alive in Heaven. Hence, whether or not you agree with the practice, prayer to the saints is not necromancy. (And actually, I even have Baptist friends who agree with me on that point)

 

[tacdon]

This is not exactly what you are asking for but it’s similar. Paul prayed and encouraged others to pray for his dead friend Onesimus in 2 Timothy

16 May the Lord show mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, because he often refreshed me and was not ashamed of my chains. 17 On the contrary, when he was in Rome, he searched hard for me until he found me. 18 May the Lord grant that he will find mercy from the Lord on that day! You know very well in how many ways he helped me in Ephesus.

Also Revelation5:8 and 8:3 clearly show the saints praying for the church

Jewish tradition of which Christianity comes prays to those in heaven.

All Christians did it until the 1700’s

Hebrews 12 also makes it clear

Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,

But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel. (Hebrews 12:1, 22-24 NASB)

We are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses…the Saints.

We come to “the spirits of the righteous made perfect” … The saints.

So it seems the burden of proof is on you to say why your 300 year old novelty is true.

Rev 5:8
And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people.

This doesn’t prove that they were praying for us, it only says they were holding golden bowls full of prayers. It did not say they were praying for the saints on earth. Even if it did mean they were praying for saints on earth, it would mean that the 4 living creatures and 24 elders were praying for us. It did not say all the saints in heaven were holding golden bowls full of prayers. That means you would have to know which 24 elders to pray to.

Rev 8:3
And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

This is talking about the saints who are on earth not the saints in heaven

 

[ClearWater]

Rev 5:8
And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people.

This doesn’t prove that they were praying for us, it only says they were holding golden bowls full of prayers. It did not say they were praying for the saints on earth. Even if it did mean they were praying for saints on earth, it would mean that the 4 living creatures and 24 elders were praying for us. It did not say all the saints in heaven were holding golden bowls full of prayers. That means you would have to know which 24 elders to pray to.

Rev 8:3
And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

This is talking about the saints who are on earth not the saints in heaven

I think it’s referrring to the saints in heaven.

 

[tacdon]

For starters, they don’t have 5000+ fulfilled prophesies.

-Tim-

and the extra things the catholic church does in addition to what is written in the bible have how many fulfilled prophesies?

I am in no way advocating Mormons or islam, but when you add to the bible that is where problems start.

 

[Jon_S_1]

If the bible doesn’t contain everything that is needed then who is to say the book of Mormon or the Koran isn’t just another revelation.

THE CHURCH!!!

Matt 16:18 upon this rock I will build my CHURCH and the gates of hell will not prevail against it!

John tells us twice Jesus did tons more than could ever be written ! Is that inconsequential!?

Paul tells us to obey the teachings taught by "word of mouth or by letter "

Do you really think after years of pastoring the only thing the early church believed was a few letters???

The letters (New Testsment)gave the story of Christ and were letters of encouragement or correction to individuals or churches.

There is so much more than that.

It’s as if your pastor preached at your church for 50 years , pastored, counselled, and friended you.

He also wrote one book on his life, a summation, and several letters to various people.

Then he died and you pull out the letters and say well that’s all there is…forget the rest he taught us.

CCCCCCRRRRRRAAAAAAAZZZZZZYYYYYYY!

But that’s exactly what you do to Christ and the Apostles.

Plus you deny the Holy Spirit has any power.

 

[ClearWater]

and the extra things the catholic church does in addition to what is written in the bible have how many fulfilled prophesies?

I am in no way advocating Mormons or islam, but** when you add to the bible that is where problems start**.

Or take away.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Well what do you call the corpse of a person that is in the grave? Isn’t their body dead? Of course their spirit is alive.

Our body is only the physical. You don’t need a body to think and pray and be with God.

 

[tacdon]

Those books contradict the Bible, and they don’t go back to the Apostles. That’s why we know they aren’t revealed by God.

My question is, didn’t the Catholic Church put together the Bible? How would you know Esther belongs in the Bible, for example, if the Catholic Church hadn’t made a list of books and included that on it? I think there’s good evidence that the Catholic Church put together the Bible. Do you agree? And if you do, why do you trust its decision? If the Church isn’t infallible, how do you know it didn’t get that wrong?

The protestant and catholic bibles don’t have the exact same books in them.

 

[ClearWater]

The protestant and catholic bibles don’t have the exact same books in them.

Right. The Catholic Bible has 73 books. The Protestant Bible has 66.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Rev 5:8
And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people.

This doesn’t prove that they were praying for us, it only says they were holding golden bowls full of prayers. It did not say they were praying for the saints on earth. Even if it did mean they were praying for saints on earth, it would mean that the 4 living creatures and 24 elders were praying for us. It did not say all the saints in heaven were holding golden bowls full of prayers. That means you would have to know which 24 elders to pray to.

Rev 8:3
And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

This is talking about the saints who are on earth not the saints in heaven

Exactly! And the angels are praying for the Saints on earth !!!

 

[Razanir]

but when you add to the bible that is where problems start.

I would agree with you if the Bible contained absolutely everything necessary for Christianity. However, it’s clearly stated in John that it doesn’t contain everything there is to know.

“But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.” John 21:25

So clearly, there are things useful to know that aren’t in the Bible. And this isn’t even mentioning the fact that the epistles mention teachings handed down by word of mouth, as opposed to by Scripture.

The protestant and catholic bibles don’t have the exact same books in them.

Correct. Martin Luther removed Tobit, Judith, 1/2 Maccabees, Sirach, Wisdom, and Baruch. A fair amount because they didn’t have original Hebrew sources at the time, but probably also in no small part because he disagreed with parts for being “too Catholic”. (Although I think we’ve found original Hebrew for most, if not all of them)

Similarly, Catholic Bibles don’t contain Psalm 151 or two additional books of Esdras (Ezra and Nehemiah are the first two), while Orthodox Bibles do.

 

[dmar198]

Rev 5:8
And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people.

This doesn’t prove that they were praying for us, it only says they were holding golden bowls full of prayers.

It also says they fell down before God with those prayers. That indicated to me that they added their prayers to the ones from earth. Do you see how we could get that from that statement?

Even if it did mean they were praying for saints on earth, it would mean that the 4 living creatures and 24 elders were praying for us. It did not say all the saints in heaven were holding golden bowls full of prayers. That means you would have to know which 24 elders to pray to.

I agree that it’s only talking about 24 elders and four angels, but here’s the thing: if they are praying for us, do you think the other saints are just kind of standing around? Actually, I apply that to Jesus too: the Bible says He intercedes for us at the right hand of the Father. If He does it, I think the other people on heaven would do it too just because He does it. Does that make sense?

This is talking about the saints who are on earth not the saints in heaven

I think there is good evidence that it is talking about prayers from earth to which prayers from heaven are aged, but maybe we can get to that later. Could you answer the other questions I asked in this post first, or comment on the things I said?