Why pray to Mary AND the saints?

[jmj1984]

So I was reading St Alphonsus Ligouri’s ‘The Glories of Mary’ and something struck me as I read it, if it is true that we receive all graces through Mary, that God never refuses anything that we ask of Mary etc… what then is the point of praying to the saints as well? Surely we would be better off simply praying to Our Lady whose prayers would be more efficacious and always heard?

In my own head I was able to think of several solutions to the ‘problem’:

i)That the difference between Our Lady and the Saints is one of degree, not of kind, that is that whilst our lady is co-redemptrix, ,mediatrix, dispensetrix etc… she is not the sole co-redemptrix, the sole Mediatrix, the sole dispensetrix, the saints also participate in this office although to a lesser degree. Regarding the issue of Our Lady being Mediatrix it occured to me that if we see God as a sea of graces, Mary is the link between that sea and an aquedact, the aquedact being the communion of saints. After all, we are all part of the mystical body of Christ and surely the graces of God flow through Mary then through the Church glorious before reaching us?

Support for the idea of the difference between Our Lady and the Saints being one of degree and not kind can be found that the church did not invent a third time to apply to our veneration to Mary, it merely added ‘hyper’ to ‘dulia’ that which we owe to the saints, meaning that hypedulia is merely a greater degree of dulia. Also there is the fact that Our Lady is a human being not a Goddess nor an angel, therefore the difference between her and the saints can only be one of degree not kind.

ii)That God has in his infinite wisdom preordained that we receive certain graces due to the intercession of particular saints, angels i.e The Archangels, our guardian angels and Our Lady. Our Lady’s will being perfectly conformed to God’s she will not therefore ask God for graces that he has preordained we should receive due to the intercession of another. We do however strictly speaking still receive them ‘through’ Mary as they flow from Christ (the head of the body) through Mary (the neck of the body) and thence through the Church glorious.

I should point out that I thought out these ideas because otherwise we are left with some serious problems, if Mary is the sole co-redemptrix, the sole mediatrix, the sole dispensetrix and if we receive graces through her to the exclusion of the rest of the saints then the communion of saints is torn asunder. It appears to become a cult of Mary and God rather than a communion of saints. Or worse we are led to the patent absurdity that we need an intercessor (a saint) with an intercessor (mary) with God, and this becomes frankly ridicalous.

I should point out before anyone gets scandalised that I do have a genuine devotion to Mary, I try to pray the Rosary, the Little office, the office of the Immaculate conception and other prayers. I do not dispute the teaching of the Church and submit myself to her judgement, I am merely curious as to whether this question has ever been dealt with and if so how.

 

[Chatter163]

We may have asked Our Lord AND Our Lady AND our guardian angel AND the saints for prayers about a specific intention, but then we still ask our family members and friends for their prayers, do we not? The more prayers requested, the better. It can only help. And if those prayers are not needed for our intention, then God will grant someone else’s intentioon, right?

 

[jmj1984]

We may have asked Our Lord AND Our Lady AND our guardian angel AND the saints for prayers about a specific intention, but then we still ask our family members and friends for their prayers, do we not? The more prayers requested, the better. It can only help. And if those prayers are not needed for our intention, then God will grant someone else’s intentioon, right?

True enough, but that doesn’t really deal with the theological issue at hand here, which is what is concerning me.

 

[Laudate_Dominum]

I should point out before anyone gets scandalised that I do have a genuine devotion to Mary, I try to pray the Rosary, the Little office, the office of the Immaculate conception and other prayers. I do not dispute the teaching of the Church and submit myself to her judgement, I am merely curious as to whether this question has ever been dealt with and if so how.

Heretic !

Here’s a reply to a similar question on another forum:

In my opinion, the best way to think about this is in terms of the Mystical Body of Christ with Mary as the neck.

No one receives grace independent from the other members. Even those outside the Church receive actual graces which are directly related to the Church and their being potential members (in other words, those actual graces impel them to actual membership). Even those actual graces cannot be said to exist independent of the Mystical Body.

In regards to Mary, St. Robert Bellarmine sums it up (my emphasis): “It is no exaggeration to say that she unites the Head to the Body, and that therefore through her, before all others, flow the heavenly blessings from the Head, who is Christ, to us who are His members.”

Therefore, while all members of the Body (or potential members ) receive graces from the Head through certain other members of the Body (both visible and heavenly), those graces are received first by one member, the neck, before passing to any other members.

It bears pointing out that this does not mean that Mary must be explicitly invoked to receive graces, simply that when God bestows graces on a particular member, Mary receives them first and hands them on–just as she first received Christ Himself and presented Him to all who would receive Him.

So you can ask Saint Anthony to intercede for you, for example, and the graces will still come through Mary. As to why asking for other saints intercessions are necessary when we have Mary… love. Praying for one of the greatest works of charity. Even though Our Lady’s intercession is without a doubt the most powerful the communion of saints still exists, they still offer their prayers for us in Heaven.

The key word really is communion. It’s not as if the saints have a ticket system in Heaven for whose praying for who today. They simply are and they are uniting their prayers with those of Our Lord and Lady on our behalf. Don’t picture everything as individually… but as one great body.

 

[jmj1984]

Heretic !

Here’s a reply to a similar question on another forum:

So you can ask Saint Anthony to intercede for you, for example, and the graces will still come through Mary. As to why asking for other saints intercessions are necessary when we have Mary… love. Praying for one of the greatest works of charity. Even though Our Lady’s intercession is without a doubt the most powerful the communion of saints still exists, they still offer their prayers for us in Heaven.

The key word really is communion. It’s not as if the saints have a ticket system in Heaven for whose praying for who today. They simply are and they are uniting their prayers with those of Our Lord and Lady on our behalf. Don’t picture everything as individually… but as one great body.

Thanks, but whilst that helps it doesn’t really answer the question. We know some saints are greater than others, some are in more glory than others this is the certain teaching of St Thomas Aquinas and in fact the doctrine that we will differ in glory is de fide. We will also all retain our personalities, therefore whilst yes it is a communion they also act as individuals.

And the love issue to be blunt sidesteps the question, that would merely justify venerating them it doesn’t help us with the intercession issue.

Yes all graces come through Mary but do they come through her exclusively or do they later come through the rest of the Church Glorious?

 

[JRKH]

My advice?? Don’t worry about it.
Direct your prayers and requests directly to God and then ask Mary and the Saints to pray for you. End your prayers with a humble acceptance of God’s Will, whatever it be.

Leave the “hows”, though whom", in what way etc to God.
Be content that All grace flows from God and that we get what we need. The logistics of that are secondary.

Peace
James

 

[ConstantineTG]

My advice?? Don’t worry about it.
Direct your prayers and requests directly to God and then ask Mary and the Saints to pray for you. End your prayers with a humble acceptance of God’s Will, whatever it be.

Leave the “hows”, though whom", in what way etc to God.
Be content that All grace flows from God and that we get what we need. The logistics of that are secondary.

Peace
James

 

[DihydrogenOxide]

Asking more holy people for help never hurts.

And no, you can’t get everything through Mary. Only if it’s God’s will. If God says no, the answer is no. Of course, she wouldn’t want it any other way.

Yes, Mary was/is full of grace and had no gap where she was lacking in the grace that she had. She is able to be asked to intercede for all graces.

That is true, but it is also true that other saints may be asked especially for graces, although they were not perfect. It does not mean that they cannot obtain certain ones by their intercession. The Church grants special titles to many of the saints because of their ability to obtain grace or aid in certain areas. That is why the Church names specific patrons for certain things. Many times God gives these saints a special recognition because of a suffering they had in life, etc.

Don’t forget John the Baptist and St. Joseph. They are way up there, too. Very holy.

Why is the litany of the saints so powerful? Because all of those people, who are close to God in Heaven, will cry out to God for you. : )

 

[jmj1984]

My advice?? Don’t worry about it.
Direct your prayers and requests directly to God and then ask Mary and the Saints to pray for you. End your prayers with a humble acceptance of God’s Will, whatever it be.

Leave the “hows”, though whom", in what way etc to God.
Be content that All grace flows from God and that we get what we need. The logistics of that are secondary.

Peace
James

Thanks, this works for some people but not everyone, otherwise there would be no such thing as theologians

 

[JRKH]

Thanks, this works for some people but not everyone, otherwise there would be no such thing as theologians

Very true.

Peace
James

 

[jmoneyideas]

Wow I actually posted this on Facebook and some of my Protestant friend jumped right in.

Gospel, Lk 1:46-56
46 And Mary said: My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord
47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Saviour;
48 because he has looked upon the humiliation of his servant. Yes, from now onwards all generations will call me blessed,
49 for the Almighty has done great things for me. Holy is his name,
50 and his faithful love extends age after age to those who fear him.
51 He has used the power of his arm, he has routed the arrogant of heart.
52 He has pulled down princes from their thrones and raised high the lowly.
53 He has filled the starving with good things, sent the rich away empty.
54 He has come to the help of Israel his servant, mindful of his faithful love
55 -according to the promise he made to our ancestors – of his mercy to Abraham and to his descendants for ever.
56 Mary stayed with her some three months and then went home.
WOW the Scriptures here really calls into mind a words of Vs 46-48 Lets no just make Mary a once in a year event my fellow Christians but we need understand the fullness of her life and what she did in Faith and Love… “yes, from now onwards all generations will call me blessed”

Which was followed by the Protestant comment

I do honor Mary as a chosen vessel to carry Christ in her womb. What I dont agree is some people worshipping the ground she walks. There is only one God that deserves to be worshipped and praised is God/Jesus Christ. Its not belittling Mary at all because I choose not to pray to her, but to honor and acknowledge the fact that she was chosen out of any woman of that time to do such an annointed task. I Mary for being an obedient and faithful woman

How easily people are confused…?

 

[jmj1984]

The issue is becoming somewhat more problematic because St Alphonsus Ligouri in the glories of Mary states " ‘But (says the author already quoted) if all graces come through Mary, when we implore the intercession of other saints,they must have recourse to the mediation of Mary. But that (he says) no one believes or dreamt’ As to believing it , I reply, that in that there can be no error or difficulty. What difficulty can there be in saying that God, in order to honour his mother and having made her Queen of Saints, and willing that all graces should be dispensed by her hands, should also will that the saints that the Saints should address themselves to her to obtain favours for their clients? And as to saying that no one ever dreamt of such a thing, I find that St Bernard, St Anselm, Saint Bonaventure, Suarez and others expressly declare it to be the case. ‘In vain (says St Bernard) would a person ask other saints for a favour, if Mary did not interpose to obtain it’ "

Now as much as I respect St Alphonsus I’m afraid I simply can’t agree with him in this matter, its simply too extreme, unbalanced and as I said before tends to rend apart the communion of saints.

 

[DihydrogenOxide]

How easily people are confused…?

It’s the Mary-phobia that nearly all protestants are taught to feel.

 

[TimothyH]

The issue is becoming somewhat more problematic because St Alphonsus Ligouri in the glories of Mary states " ‘But (says the author already quoted) if all graces come through Mary, when we implore the intercession of other saints,they must have recourse to the mediation of Mary. But that (he says) no one believes or dreamt’ As to believing it , I reply, that in that there can be no error or difficulty. What difficulty can there be in saying that God, in order to honour his mother and having made her Queen of Saints, and willing that all graces should be dispensed by her hands, should also will that the saints that the Saints should address themselves to her to obtain favours for their clients? And as to saying that no one ever dreamt of such a thing, I find that St Bernard, St Anselm, Saint Bonaventure, Suarez and others expressly declare it to be the case. ‘In vain (says St Bernard) would a person ask other saints for a favour, if Mary did not interpose to obtain it’ "

Now as much as I respect St Alphonsus I’m afraid I simply can’t agree with him in this matter, its simply too extreme, unbalanced and as I said before tends to rend apart the communion of saints.

I’m not sure how it rends apart the communion of saints. Can you explain further?

I would ask if you were confused about the difference between mediation and intercession, but your posts are too lucid and wll thought out for me to believe that this would be the case. So could you explain further how all graces dispensed by Mary’s hands, even though we ask for them throug the intercesion of Saint X or Saint Y, how this would rend apart the Communion of Saints?

The question is most interesting. I’m just missing part of your thought process, I think.

-Tim-

 

[LayingHands]

Thanks, but whilst that helps it doesn’t really answer the question. We know some saints are greater than others, some are in more glory than others this is the certain teaching of St Thomas Aquinas and in fact the doctrine that we will differ in glory is de fide. We will also all retain our personalities, therefore whilst yes it is a communion they also act as individuals.

And the love issue to be blunt sidesteps the question, that would merely justify venerating them it doesn’t help us with the intercession issue.

Yes all graces come through Mary but do they come through her exclusively or do they later come through the rest of the Church Glorious?

Actually, GOD as Creator and Controller, listens to, approves of or declines our prayers, through whomever you pray to…they are Messengers and are to bring your prayers/desires/wishes/wills…to Him for a decision…

 

[Elixir]

I think that the ultimate goal of prayer is communion/communication with God and since we’re the haphazard, forgetful, sometimes-get-bored humans that we are the good Lord has blessed us with an amazing array of Saints that can appeal to us in various ways and stimulate more prayer.

It could be that the whole point of proclaiming people Saints, blessing sacramentals, etc. is to stimulate us and aid us in our walk with God and communicating with him in ways that move and attract our human natures. Humans are tactile, we like things like medals and Rosaries and prayer cards and we’re social by design so we’re given a cloud of witnesses to help us on the way.

The answer, I think, to the OP’s question is because having Mary and the Saints can motivate us to pray more.

 

[jmj1984]

I’m not sure how it rends apart the communion of saints. Can you explain further?

I would ask if you were confused about the difference between mediation and intercession, but your posts are too lucid and wll thought out for me to believe that this would be the case. So could you explain further how all graces dispensed by Mary’s hands, even though we ask for them throug the intercesion of Saint X or Saint Y, how this would rend apart the Communion of Saints?

The question is most interesting. I’m just missing part of your thought process, I think.

-Tim-

Yes, apologies for not explaining myself properly.

I have no issue with all graces being dispensed via Our Lady, indeed I believe it, but that is simply saying that Our Lord is the head, Our Lady is the neck and such forth, it is of necessity due to the mystical body.

But if we take it as St Alphonsus suggests that would mean that the saints cannot even have direct access to God, that instead they must go via Our Lady, that is that they must ask her and not God, that seems to rend apart the communion of saints. Instead of the Church Glorious praying for us and we to them, as well as God, it would appear that we must pray to them and they to Our Lady and our Lady to our Lord. In a word we need an intercessor (a saint) with an intercessor (our Lady) with God. That is just a step too far, of course the saints praise and glory with Our Lady and sing her praises and in hers Gods, but to say that they can do nothing of themselves, that when they see go see god they are told ‘Ite ad Maria’ that I cannot believe. It also rends apart the communion of saints because it renders the communion of saints pointless, we need not pray to saints we need merely pray to Our Lady (though God forbid that anyone say such a thing) and our prayers will be answered. The communion of saints is no longer a communion of saints but instead it becomes the cult of Mary and Our Lord.

 

[JRKH]

I think that the ultimate goal of prayer is communion/communication with God and since we’re the haphazard, forgetful, sometimes-get-bored humans that we are the good Lord has blessed us with an amazing array of Saints that can appeal to us in various ways and stimulate more prayer.

It could be that the whole point of proclaiming people Saints, blessing sacramentals, etc. is to stimulate us and aid us in our walk with God and communicating with him in ways that move and attract our human natures. Humans are tactile, we like things like medals and Rosaries and prayer cards and we’re social by design so we’re given a cloud of witnesses to help us on the way.

The answer, I think, to the OP’s question is because having Mary and the Saints can motivate us to pray more.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

I don’t understand why people have to make things so complicated.

Where does Grace come from?? It comes from God.
Who answers our prayers?? God
Simple…

What about the Saints?? They can pray for us to God.
Where do the Saints get there answers from?? God
Simple…

Where does Mary get the Grace that she dispenses? God
Can she get it from anyone else?? No
Simple…

God may have a highly complex system set up for how these things work or it might be extremely simple… I lean toward simple.
But just as I don’t need to know all the details about how my computer got from the raw materials through construction, distribution and delivery to my desktop, neither do I need to know all of the details of how my prayers get to Him or how He gets the answers and the graces to me. All that matters is that He hears and that He answers me.

I realize that certain great saints have written wonderful texts full of imagery and prose extolling the many virtues and benefits of Mary - and deservedly so - BUT, these texts need to be read carefully, fully and by persons who are spiritually ready to deal with the deep and complex concepts they present.

Too many people - even good and sincere Catholics, can be easily misled by some of these writing and these concepts. Most of us really need to concentrate on a very simple faith and leave the details to God.

Peace

 

[TimothyH]

I think that the ultimate goal of prayer is communion/communication with God and since we’re the haphazard, forgetful, sometimes-get-bored humans that we are the good Lord has blessed us with an amazing array of Saints that can appeal to us in various ways and stimulate more prayer.

It could be that the whole point of proclaiming people Saints, blessing sacramentals, etc. is to stimulate us and aid us in our walk with God and communicating with him in ways that move and attract our human natures. Humans are tactile, we like things like medals and Rosaries and prayer cards and we’re social by design so we’re given a cloud of witnesses to help us on the way.

The answer, I think, to the OP’s question is because having Mary and the Saints can motivate us to pray more.

The saints certainly do motivate us but that is not why the Church declares people to be saints.

Remember that the saints are real human beings with problems and sins and struggles just like you and I. They had souls just like you and I. They are real people, and having achieved perfection, the saints are members of the Church who enjoy the Beatific Vision - union with the Trinity - and are therefor more alive than we are.

In declaring somone to be a saint, the Church is simply recognizing a truth. The person would be a saint even if they Church did not declare them so. The Church is simply recognizing that someone is a saint. There are many saints in this world which the universal Church will never know about, many who qietly live lives of holiness and heroic virtue, whom the Church will never canonize.

The saints are members of the Church, and they pray for you and I just like we pray for each other. They are not just spiritual motivators for our prayer life.

-Tim-